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F Champ Receives Lifetime Ban, Racism in the FGC/USA, and Other Prevalent Social Discussions

ItsYaBoi

Kombatant
I only read some posts because the amount of paragraphs written in this thread makes me feel like I’m reading a J.K. Rowling book. I just share my own thoughts and beliefs that came from my own life experiences. White privilege may be a thing to y’all but I refuse to believe in it. I don’t want to get put into this mindset where I have to be jealous of white people because they’re more privileged. Or that they have to apologise they’re more privileged. Life isn’t fair and you just have to do it with the cards you have.
So basically, no response to it, yet you still claim it doesn’t exist. Welcome to internet discourse everybody, where people just put their fingers in their ears and shout away. Lovely.
 

Marlow

Champion
The article is assuming that every white person is racist and/or implicitly obsessed with race.
Not at all. The whole point is that it's something that basically happens behind the scenes, unintentional. In no way does it suggest white people or anybody is "obsessed" with race, or that people are actively trying to be racist. Again, you just keep choosing to mis-interpret everything.

To follow the given example, I think most white people will refuse to purchase a brand of shampoo because they dislike the price and/or the scent instead of disliking the shampoo bottle because of a pictured black man or woman. I genuinely feel like an idiot having to point out this fact.
That's not what the given example is pointing out. The example is stating that stores and products were, for a very a long time, almost exclusively marketed with the idea of a white person being the normal or default audience. Same thing with television shows, movies, books, stuff like that.

A company is most likely to hire the person, whether white or black, best-suited for the job because it is in the human resource department's best interest to do so.
In an ideal world, sure. That doesn't mean it's how the real world plays out.

This entire implicit bias nonsense has zero scientific value because it is extremely difficult to prove. You have to be able to read people's minds or assume people are racist by nature.
Just because something is difficult to prove on a case by case individual level doesn't mean you can't take the data as a whole and draw reasonable conclusions from it based on deviations from expected outcomes. It's about probabilities.

For example, how would you explain black players making up close to 70% of the NFL's player base, yet just 15% or so of the QB's are black? I'm not assuming that all high school, college, and pro coaches/scouts are racist and thus discriminate against black players and push them off the QB position. But clearly something is happening where black players are being pushed away from the QB position. If not due to some kind of implicit bias, then what is causing this?
 

ItsYaBoi

Kombatant
I do not perceive you as Marxist, but I do think you are liberal. I am confident that I know where most posters in this thread stand ideologically.

Conservative
- Sub_On_Dubs

Classical Liberal

  • ChaosTheory
  • Jokey77
  • M2Dave
Centrist

  • Anarchist_Gib
  • Dankster Morgan
  • Onryoki
Liberal

  • Crimson Shadow
  • Juggs
  • Haketh
  • Lt. Boxy Angelman
  • Marlow
  • RoboCop
  • Rude
Socialist

  • ItsYaBoy
  • Kabelfritz
  • Mrapchem
  • Pangolin-man
Marxist

- King Hippo
Big up to my fellow socialists (apparently). Fucking LOL.
 

Lt. Boxy Angelman

I WILL EAT THIS GAME
I do not perceive you as Marxist, but I do think you are liberal.
So what would you say is the difference between the "classical" liberal and the regular liberal? Because I definitely feel like I have more in common with the older generations than the younger ones as far as how I realistically view the world.
I made the point earlier in the thread about why I have such disdain for how popular Marxism and Communism have become; they both depend on society committing more to the collective than themselves, and most people (in my opinion) are too inherently selfish/concerned with their own self-preservation for that to ever succeed.
 

Popegina

Hymen Holocaust
That feeling when even non-minority members of the NBA staff admit that this exists:


Yeah. It's kind of hard to categorically deny it when the very people who are involved are saying otherwise.

Steve Nash has always been -- pardon the pun -- a straight shooter; so there's little reason for him to be disingenuous here.
White privilege definitely exists, but this isn't an example of it. Isiah Thomas, Derek Fisher, Jason Kidd, Magic Johnson, Doc Rivers, Mark Jackson, and Lenny Wilkins are examples of former black players who became a head coach without any prior experience.

While I'm not saying that Nash is being disingenuous with his statement, I think part of it had to do with PR/damage control, and the rest of it being due to his overall humility. I followed his entire career and he's always been an all around nice and humble person, so it doesn't surprise me that he's not being egotistical about this. The word is that they not only hired him due to being a high basketball IQ floor general, but because of his relationship with the team's 2 black superstars, Kevin Durant and Kyrie Irving.

Just like former NFL QB's and MLB catchers, there's this incorrect idea that former NBA point guards will instantly have success as a head coach without experience as an assistant first, and it usually fails. I think hiring Nash immediately as a head coach is a mistake.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
White privilege definitely exists, but this isn't an example of it. Isiah Thomas, Derek Fisher, Jason Kidd, Magic Johnson, Doc Rivers, Mark Jackson, and Lenny Wilkins are examples of former black players who became a head coach without any prior experience.

While I'm not saying that Nash is being disingenuous with his statement, I think part of it had to do with PR/damage control, and the rest of it being due to his overall humility. I followed his entire career and he's always been an all around nice and humble person, so it doesn't surprise me that he's not being egotistical about this. The word is that they not only hired him due to being a high basketball IQ floor general, but because of his relationship with the team's 2 black superstars, Kevin Durant and Kyrie Irving.

Just like former NFL QB's and MLB catchers, there's this incorrect idea that former NBA point guards will instantly have success as a head coach without experience as an assistant first, and it usually fails. I think hiring Nash immediately as a head coach is a mistake.
You'll have to argue that one with Steve Nash, rather than with me. He's not someone who's prone to making a ton of social or political statements, and he's always spoken his mind. So if he says he feels it was involved, I'd take him at his word.

And also, I don't buy this argument that if something exists it has to be the reason for everything. Clearly there have been more caucasian head coaches, owners, staff and commissioners overall. So it's not necessary to prove that no African-American ever received a coaching job without much prior experience. If it's happening far more to white personalities over the history of the NBA, even though the league is predominantly African-American, I think it's worth asking why.

Overall though, I'm simply pasting his words here and letting them speak for themselves. Steve has far more experience in the league than you or I.

And again, I think assuming that less African-Americans want to own teams, be commissioner, GM or coach is a pretty silly argument. Clearly there are other issues that create a balance in leadership that's opposite of the makeup of the league.
 

Marlow

Champion
So what would you say is the difference between the "classical" liberal and the regular liberal?
For the Classical Liberal, rights are “negative” (based on the inaction of others, like the right to consume raw milk. I have the liberty/freedom to do what I want to do). For the modern or social liberal, rights are “positive” (extended to others through action, like the right to medical coverage as extended by programs like Medicaid and Medicare .

A negative right is a right not to be subjected to an action of another person or group; negative rights permit or oblige inaction. A positive right is a right to be subjected to an action or another person or group; positive rights permit or oblige action.

Rights considered negative rights may include civil and political rights such as freedom of speech, life, private property, freedom from violent crime, freedom of religion, habeas corpus, a fair trial, and freedom from slavery.

Rights considered positive rights, as initially proposed in 1979 by the Czech jurist Karel Vašák, may include other civil and political rights such as police protection of person and property and the right to counsel, as well as economic, social and cultural rights such as food, housing, public education, employment, national security, military, health care, social security, internet access, and a minimum standard of living.

Obviously there's some overlap, but a Classical Liberal is likely going to put more of an emphasis on negative rights, while the modern liberal or social liberal is going to put more emphasis on positive rights. Classical liberal is basically libertarian. A lot of people on the conservative side of the spectrum like to identify themselves as Classical Liberal instead of Republican because then they can distance themselves from the Trumpified Republican party. Plus then they can feel a bit more fancy about themselves.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
So what would you say is the difference between the "classical" liberal and the regular liberal?
From my perspective, Neo-liberals attribute every inequity in society to racism and discrimination instead of placing emphasis on personal responsibility and decision making, insist on disintegrating certain aspects of the system instead of reforming them, promote identify politics and collectivism instead of individualism, and engage in foreign interventionism instead of diplomacy and isolation when appropriate. Classic liberals prefer less government involvement but understand that government must intervene in certain circumstances in order to protect liberties and safety of the individual.
 

scarsunseen

Miley Cyrax®
"Neo-liberals attribute every inequity in society to racism and discrimination instead of placing emphasis on personal responsibility and decision making, insist on disintegrating certain aspects of the system instead of reforming them, promote identify politics and collectivism instead of individualism, and engage in foreign interventionism instead of diplomacy and isolation when appropriate"

This is a very general attribute or definition of leftism, not modern liberalism.

"Classic liberals prefer less government involvement but understand that government must intervene in certain circumstances in order to protect liberties and safety of the individual. "

Correct. These are still modern liberals as well. Left and liberal are not the same thing, but they can have overlap. Just don't tell that to a FAR-leftist.

For example, in my experience, most boomers are liberals, especially in the northeast. Boomers and leftists often do NOT share political ideologies. There is a generational and ideological gap.
 

Marlow

Champion
From my perspective, Neo-liberals attribute every inequity in society to racism and discrimination instead of placing emphasis on personal responsibility and decision making, insist on disintegrating certain aspects of the system instead of reforming them, promote identify politics and collectivism instead of individualism, and engage in foreign interventionism instead of diplomacy and isolation when appropriate. Classic liberals prefer less government involvement but understand that government must intervene in certain circumstances in order to protect liberties and safety of the individual.
You're just talking about Liberals in general. Neo-liberals or Neoliberalism is different. Neo-liberals would be more akin to being in favor of Free Markets and De-regulation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism#United_States
 

ChaosTheory

A fat woman came into the shoe store today...
There seems to be two schools of thought regarding white privilege. One is what Dave pointed out, which you see propagated plenty

The other seems to be the result of white people being the original majority of the citizenry of America. Thus, most doctors you see are white, most actors you see are white, etc. Correct me if I'm wrong.

In that case... Would white privilege similar (not same) to what exists in America be present in other majority white countries like Germany or Norway? Does the phenomenon exist outside majority white countries? Is there Korean, Mexican, or Japanese privilege in those countries?
 

ChaosTheory

A fat woman came into the shoe store today...
The rampant violence is the issue for me. You can get lost defining political labels. But harmful messaging and subsequent violence is more tangible.

Just a PSA for anybody that doesn't dig into these cases (I don't blame you) but has a peripheral awareness... Rioting has been going on upwards of four months now. Mainly in response to George Floyd, Rayshard Brooks, Breonna Taylor, and Jacob Blake. The Kyle Rittenhouse situation also involves charges.

The more info that comes out after the initial narratives or each... Don't be surprised in several months when possibly every one of these these ends in acquittal or, at best, lesser charges.

I could surely be wrong. But I have a bad feeling that these aren't going to end the way a segment of the population expect/desire and this shit will reignite (assuming it calms down in the meantime).
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
@M2Dave the thing you seem to be missing, repeatedly, throughout this thread is that social conditions/history of discrimination and personal responsibility are not mutually exclusive. They are both factors in all of our everyday lives.

But the government's responsibility, and that of society at large, is to make sure that unfair discrimination in every form is diminished to the fullest extent, and that opportunities are the same for everyone regardless of how their genetics.

These two things exist along two different axes. There isn't a spectrum from racism to personal responsibility. You can both fight discrimination and encourage personal responsibility at the same time.
 

BurdaA

Frost-Byte
I just don’t understand why we can’t use individual anecdotal qualitative assumptions to draw substantive quantifiable statistical conclusions. Probs just me... and the ONS (UK)

Jk
 

Onryoki

We all die alone. So love yourself before you go.
So basically, no response to it, yet you still claim it doesn’t exist. Welcome to internet discourse everybody, where people just put their fingers in their ears and shout away. Lovely.
Maybe you should take some reading classes because I said “I refuse to believe in it” I didn’t claim it didn’t exist. I said it may be a thing to y’all. If you’re gonna quote me don’t twist my words.

Anyway back to the topic. Despite my opinions I am more on the left side when it comes to my politics.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
These two things exist along two different axes. There isn't a spectrum from racism to personal responsibility. You can both fight discrimination and encourage personal responsibility at the same time.
I have done both in this thread. I take issue with your definition of racism because you seem to imply that any inequity in the system is the result of racism and discrimination. In other words, unless blacks, or any other minority group, are represented proportionately in all aspects of life, the system is racist and discriminatory. You talk about the fact that 75% of NBA players are black, yet only a few are owners. What changes, if any, would you make to equalize the field?

Another issue is the loose usage of the word racism by social justice warriors, the most recent example being King Hippo, to whom I indicated that some liberal news media personalities have big donors too. I mentioned George Soros as a financier and he immediately implies that I am an anti-semite. LOL! King Hippo constantly trashes Ben Shapiro, who is also Jewish, but because I am no raging intersectionalist, I do not prescribe King Hippo's aversion to Ben Shapiro as antisemitism bit rather as political.
 

Marlow

Champion
I mentioned George Soros as a financier and he immediately implies that I am an anti-semite.
George Soros is a wealthy Jewish billionaire. He's the target of a lot of antisemitism from far right wing nationalistic groups, who float insane conspiracy theories about how George Soros is trying to fund a takeover of America. Those same criticisms then also get picked up and repeated by conservatives who don't like that he donates to liberal leaning causes. So now conservatives use Geroge Soros as this boogeyman where they can just invoke his name, as if he's some kind of controversial figure, and use that to disparage any group he donates to. I'm not saying that anyone who criticizes George Soros is an anti-Semite, but they're basically just recycling anti-semite talking points, or at the least talking points that were born out of antisemitism.
 

Lt. Boxy Angelman

I WILL EAT THIS GAME
From my perspective, Neo-liberals attribute every inequity in society to racism and discrimination instead of placing emphasis on personal responsibility and decision making, insist on disintegrating certain aspects of the system instead of reforming them, promote identify politics and collectivism instead of individualism, and engage in foreign interventionism instead of diplomacy and isolation when appropriate. Classic liberals prefer less government involvement but understand that government must intervene in certain circumstances in order to protect liberties and safety of the individual.
Yeah, outside of our differences about systemic racism in America, I do literally none of that.

Not EVERY problem in America is based on race. That's ridiculous. A bunch? Yes. More than you'd like to admit? Probably. But ALL of it? Not a chance.
Peoples' lack of personal responsibility and shit decision-making abilities scare the hell out of me, which is a big part of why I have next to no social life and a tiny social media footprint.
Reform, especially when it comes to the police, women's rights, immigration, and making sure insane people can't legally buy guns, would be a great idea if we didn't have a two-party system that's now more centered around preserving the combative partisan narrative than getting any actual work done. But the idea of actually abolishing the police or the IRS rather than reforming and reorganizing them to better do their jobs is almost as laughably impractical as the idea of a Communist USA.
Identity politics and collectivism are just excuses for people to think like hive minds; they push their own responsibility to themselves and their own place in the way things are to the side because it feels good to pretend you're a part of something, when in reality they're just nesting into the same kind of mobs they claim to resent and detest. That's part of why I can't fucking stand being lumped in with the piles just because I think stuff like that we can afford to help the lower and impoverished classes of America more than we do if Jeff Bezos can afford to be worth $400 billion; I hate the fucking piles. I hated the piles and labels and herds in high school, I hate them now, everyone wants to yell about how they're right, no one wants to talk it out. Leftists can't accept that they're never going to get everything THEY think should be done, the Right is determined to blame everything they've done wrong on whichever boogeyman best fits the scenario.
And foreign interventionism is exactly how we ended up creating the Fox News vacuum where press and journalism went from talking about what's really news to preserving the narratives of fear and divisiveness that are now driving the two halves of the Left V Right / Trump V Biden / Anarchists V Militias fights that we're seeing play out now.

And I'm pro-death penalty, and pro-guns as long as SOMETHING is done in the legislature to close the gun show loopholes and try to keep people who shouldn't have guns from getting them. Both of those things I believe would disqualify me as a leftist. Soooo nope. Outside of my feelings about race and the horrible things America has done since its' inception (to black people, to the Natives, to the Middle East, etc), I don't think I qualify as a neo-liberal even slightly.
 

jokey77

Character Loyalist
For the Classical Liberal, rights are “negative” (based on the inaction of others, like the right to consume raw milk. I have the liberty/freedom to do what I want to do). For the modern or social liberal, rights are “positive” (extended to others through action, like the right to medical coverage as extended by programs like Medicaid and Medicare .

A negative right is a right not to be subjected to an action of another person or group; negative rights permit or oblige inaction. A positive right is a right to be subjected to an action or another person or group; positive rights permit or oblige action.

Rights considered negative rights may include civil and political rights such as freedom of speech, life, private property, freedom from violent crime, freedom of religion, habeas corpus, a fair trial, and freedom from slavery.

Rights considered positive rights, as initially proposed in 1979 by the Czech jurist Karel Vašák, may include other civil and political rights such as police protection of person and property and the right to counsel, as well as economic, social and cultural rights such as food, housing, public education, employment, national security, military, health care, social security, internet access, and a minimum standard of living.

Obviously there's some overlap, but a Classical Liberal is likely going to put more of an emphasis on negative rights, while the modern liberal or social liberal is going to put more emphasis on positive rights. Classical liberal is basically libertarian. A lot of people on the conservative side of the spectrum like to identify themselves as Classical Liberal instead of Republican because then they can distance themselves from the Trumpified Republican party. Plus then they can feel a bit more fancy about themselves.
Wow, this is one of those posts that made me think. I never saw it that way, but you are propably right! Is this distinction common knowledge in the US? - Thank you very much for your post!

Now I wonder why "classical liberals" see the negative in rights, while "social liberals" see them in a positive way.

Could it be that ...
... "classical liberals" see rights as a tool that is used, to take things away from them.
... "social liberals" see rights as a tool that is used, to take things away from others.

I'd really like to know who of the "social liberals" in this thread think, that it was them who should solve the systemic problems in society. My impression is that they expect others to change. Their own contribution is limited to pointing out that others must solve the systemic problems.

However I have great personal respect for those (few) leftists who understand by "equal rights" that they themselves would have to give up something. Thus I ask the left leaning people in this thread: What would you give up in order to fight systemic racism or other inequalities?

Foucault once said that those who cry out for justice are not really about justice. It is only a catchword to gain an advantage in the struggle for power. There propably lies at least some truth in this.

Also I want to add, that (in my humble opinion) this thread has again turned into an exciting discussion because the nuances of conceptual meanings are questioned.
 

Lt. Boxy Angelman

I WILL EAT THIS GAME
Wow, this is one of those posts that made me think. I never saw it that way, but you are propably right! Is this distinction common knowledge in the US? - Thank you very much for your post!

Now I wonder why "classical liberals" see the negative in rights, while "social liberals" see them in a positive way.

Could it be that ...
... "classical liberals" see rights as a tool that is used, to take things away from them.
... "social liberals" see rights as a tool that is used, to take things away from others.

I'd really like to know who of the "social liberals" in this thread think, that it was them who should solve the systemic problems in society. My impression is that they expect others to change. Their own contribution is limited to pointing out that others must solve the systemic problems.

However I have great personal respect for those (few) leftists who understand by "equal rights" that they themselves would have to give up something. Thus I ask the left leaning people in this thread: What would you give up in order to fight systemic racism or other inequalities?

Foucault once said that those who cry out for justice are not really about justice. It is only a catchword to gain an advantage in the struggle for power. There propably lies at least some truth in this.

Also I want to add, that (in my humble opinion) this thread has again turned into an exciting discussion because the nuances of conceptual meanings are questioned.
I agree. I fucking love when the nuances of conceptual meanings are questioned.