F Champ Receives Lifetime Ban, Racism in the FGC/USA, and Other Prevalent Social Discussions

[Anarchist_Gib]

@Anarchist_Gib Good on you for the information. It's exhausting explaining things in meme-world.

PSA: (gun) criminals don't give one flying fuck about your gun laws.

I appreciate the commendation. I try to only address topics for which I am sufficiently knowledgeable, and I find the general public's awareness and comprehension of current firearms laws and trends is severely lacking. If I can clarify even a single misunderstanding or misrepresentation on this issue, I'll leave satisfied and fulfilled.

 

[Marlow]

"Hemenway noted that one commonly cited statistic about guns—that 2.5 million people use them each year to defend themselves or their property — is based on faulty analysis from a 1990s study "

This is just false. The number was derived from a 2013 study looking at the time from the mentioned 1990 study that Kleck analyzed to 2012. Those numbers of DGUs did indeed range from 200,000 to 2.5 million.

https://www.nap.edu/read/18319/chapter/1#ix

There's a lot of back and forth on the estimates. RAND Corporation also found the Kleck estimate to be way too high.

https://www.rand.org/research/gun-policy/analysis/essays/defensive-gun-use.html

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

You're either disengenuous or another armchair superhero. If you were a cop, you'd be the poor bastard laid out on the side of the road leaving his kid without a father.

The Jacob Blake incident that started all of this was the result of a suspect deliberately and continuously disregarding orders until the officers felt threatened.

Do you know what happens when you let an "unarmed" suspect deliberately and continuously disregard an officer's orders?

Do you know that if you're a cop, you're trained to take down suspects without letting them walk all the way to their car door and shooting them in the back?
I come from New York/New Jersey. I know cops. I went to school with people who grew up to be cops. I've had several dealings and talks with cops. If you're any of the cops on that scene, and you feel threatened, you take them the fuck down. You don't sit there and wait, and wait, and wait for him to do something suspicious, and then unload in his back in front of his fucking kids. The fact that they let it even get that far without restraining him if he was such a threatening figure is a testament to how absolutely dogshit they are at their jobs, and is a personification a hundred times over of why the police in America needs to be reformed in totality. Period.

"Armchair superhero." That's funny. Not as good as Dave's "Liberal Ideologue," which I still need to get put on a t-shirt, but pretty close.

https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-protests-for-racial-justice/2020/08/26/906145086/3-shot-1-fatally-in-kenosha-wis-as-protests-continue-over-police-shooting

"
A Facebook group calling itself the Kenosha Guard posted a message Wednesday saying it was not sure if a shooter had answered the group's call to arms. The group had been open to the public as of Wednesday morning, but has since disappeared. NPR took screen grabs of messages posted to it before it was blocked from public view.

"We are unaware if the armed citizen was answering the Kenosha Guard Militia's call to arms," the statement said. "Just like with the shooting of Jacob Blake, we need all the facts and evidence to come out before we make a judgement. God Bless and stay safe Kenosha!"

"


It might be anecdotal, but here's a clear case where a bunch of private citizens walking around with guns clearly did not make the situation safer one bit.

Let's see if the people condemning Jacob Blake have the same energy for these militias when they start furthering their violence and intimidation tactics as we get closer to the election.

They won't, but let's see.

 

[Marlow]

Professor Xavier is an Armchair Superhero and he's cool as hell. Sign me up.

 

[trufenix]

Ah, the age old you can't do anything about guns so don't do anything about guns logic. The only thing worse than gun violence.

Ask any other disarmed country what they did, then do that. Not hard.

 

[ChaosTheory]

If you're any of the cops on that scene, and you feel threatened, you take them the fuck down.

That's exactly what they did.

Are you saying Blake was a threat before he reached into his vehicle?

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Ah, the age old you can't do anything about guns so don't do anything about guns logic. The only thing worse than gun violence.

Ask any other disarmed country what they did, then do that. Not hard.

I mean this in a genuine way, did any of those countries have as many firearms as the USA? Or even Texas alone? Was the right to own firearms as valued in those countries as it is here?

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

That's exactly what they did.

Are you saying Blake was a threat before he reached into his vehicle?

I'm saying that if they regarded him as a threat from the jump, every cop on that scene could have gotten between him and that door before he walked from one end of the van to the other.
Before they LET HIM walk from one end of the van to the other.
Before they LET HIM open that door and shot him in the back.
Cops have no problem any other time tackling a suspect to the ground, locking him in a chokehold, restraining him four or five guys to one, pulling out a taser or a baton, etcetera etcetera. Why not now? Why did they let him even REACH, let alone open the door, without stopping him if he was such a big threat that he had to be shot in the back in front of his children to subdue him?

They fucked up. Completely. And now this man, who did NOTHING except try and break up a fight between two women, is never going to be able to walk again, and his children are going to have to live with the memory of law enforcement filling their father with lead, because they couldn't do their fucking jobs right.
And don't give me any of that quotation mark innocent bullshit here, because Jacob Blake could've literally been Satan himself, and it STILL wouldn't change the fact that those cops did not follow safe or sane protocol in any useful capacity. But he's not. He's another black man who got shot by police for no good fucking reason.
Tackle him. Taze him. Pin him down. Stop him before he walks all the way around the van. Do fucking anything except wait until he gives you an excuse to shoot him.
But no. Here we are again, blaming the minority because the cop can't do his job.

 

[Anarchist_Gib]

There's a lot of back and forth on the estimates. RAND Corporation also found the Kleck estimate to be way too high.

https://www.rand.org/research/gun-policy/analysis/essays/defensive-gun-use.html

Why cite the Kleck estimate when I'm citing the study conducted per the CDC that in fact support that number?

 

[KingHippo]

You're either disengenuous or another armchair superhero. If you were a cop, you'd be the poor bastard laid out on the side of the road leaving his kid without a father.

The Jacob Blake incident that started all of this was the result of a suspect deliberately and continuously disregarding orders until the officers felt threatened.

Do you know what happens when you let an "unarmed" suspect deliberately and continuously disregard an officer's orders?

If you don't want to watch (it's heart wrenching): 22-year-old deputy pulls over older war vet for speeding. Driver is unhinged and belligerent, disobeys orders for over a minute, approaches driver's side door and starts reaching into truck, deputy allows it for nearly 30 seconds before ID'ing a rifle, another 20 seconds go by and a firefight ensues. Deputy is shot multiple times and disabled before the driver approaches and executes him with a headshot (off camera).

Popular one going around. Two troopers try to arrest driver, he fights them non-stop even through being tased extensively. Breaks free, approaches driver's side door and reaches in, troopers resist firing their weapons, driver pulls out a gun and opens fire on both troopers. The trooper that hopped the rail was hit, severing his femoral artery. Thankfully he didn't die, but he was in a coma for 12 days and had to relearn how to walk, talk, and swallow.


In both cases... Sorry... The unarmed person should've been shot. Rather tried by 12 than carried by 6.

--------------

As for the riot shooting... The 17-year-old is on film being attacked twice by multiple people swarming him. Videos are there to be seen, go find them.

Two angles of the the first shooting shows him running away while being chased by multiple people, the victim throwing something at him. Then when they get near the cars and close in, you hear the shots and the man goes down with a shot to the head.

Later video shows the shooter still being chased, falls to the ground and has multiple guys charge him. The flying curb stomp guy gets lucky. The skateboard guy that grabs his gun isn't lucky and is shot in the chest. The third guy holding the Glock feigns retreat with his hands up before he charges the guy and gets shot in the arm. The rest scatter, shooter continues walking away and apparently turned himself over to police.

Some of you guys apparently want people to just sit there and take what's coming to them, like the drivers being swarmed by peaceful protesters.

Oh and just a reminder of what happens when peaceful protesters swarm you and/or you don't obey them....

 

[Marlow]

Why cite the Kleck estimate when I'm citing the study conducted per the CDC that in fact support that number?

Because that study by the CDC cites Kleck's number, it doesn't support it. https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2019/aug/14/curt-schilling/trump-backed-ex-pitcher-curt-schilling-misleads-sa/

"
The report was requested by the CDC, but was done by what is now known as the National Academy of Medicine, a federally chartered nonprofit.

The report did not produce its own estimates; rather, it cited estimates from studies.

It also made clear that estimates vary widely.

"Defensive use of guns by crime victims is a common occurrence, although the exact number remains disputed," ranging from 108,000 to 3 million instances per year, the report stated.

Both the 3 million figure, and a 2.5 million figure mentioned in the report, stem from one gun researcher, Florida State University criminal justice professor Gary Kleck.

"

That 2.5 million number is simply an estimate based on a sampling of 15 states.

 

[ItsYaBoi]

View attachment 17356

Full on boot fellatio my friend.

It’s ridiculous how brainwashed some people have become. Scary times.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

I mean this in a genuine way, did any of those countries have as many firearms as the USA? Or even Texas alone? Was the right to own firearms as valued in those countries as it is here?

So if a country had more murderers than other countries, you'd just make murder legal?

Think about it for a second. There's a reason we have laws. "Some people will do it anyway" isn't an excuse to not have any of the other laws we have to keep people safe.

So imo this logic doesn't hold up. You have to start somewhere! Fighting fire with fire clearly hasn't worked. It doesn't matter how many there are -- we need to start making progress, so that our kids don't have to grow up and live with the fear of this nonsense.

 

[Anarchist_Gib]

Because that study by the CDC cites Kleck's number, it doesn't support it. https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2019/aug/14/curt-schilling/trump-backed-ex-pitcher-curt-schilling-misleads-sa/
"
The report was requested by the CDC, but was done by what is now known as the National Academy of Medicine, a federally chartered nonprofit.
The report did not produce its own estimates; rather, it cited estimates from studies.
It also made clear that estimates vary widely.

Indeed, 200,000 to 2.5 million is quite wide.

"Defensive use of guns by crime victims is a common occurrence, although the exact number remains disputed," ranging from 108,000 to 3 million instances per year, the report stated.
Both the 3 million figure, and a 2.5 million figure mentioned in the report, stem from one gun researcher, Florida State University criminal justice professor Gary Kleck.

That particular quote is from Kleck & Bates writings from 2001 which heavily draw from his 1997 analysis, not his 1990 one. Earlier you quoted the 1997 Cook analysis, in which he came to that 108,000 number in a survey that didn't even ask about DGU(page 15 of the study).

That 2.5 million number is simply an estimate based on a sampling of 15 states.

You can take the data or leave it, but even the most generous figures to your side paint a picture in which DGUs represent a far greater figure than something like gun homicides which tend around 30,000 a year, 65% of which are suicides.

(The following portion was added much later than my original post for transparency's sake, but the content was in relation to this post so I thought to just add to it)

I've been reacquainting myself with the Kleck findings in particular as the result of this conversation. The main detractors of his work most often cite a 1997 article by a gentleman by name of David Hemenway. In said article he draws issue with Kleck extrapolating his findings of 1.33%(of surveyed persons identifying as having been involved in a DGU) to the national population at large, resulting in the original high-range estimate of 2.5 million. He also calls into question particulars of the surveys as well, such as the majority of survey respondents being the male authority of the household with females only becoming part of the survey if no adult male was available.

I have a couple thoughts on this;

A) It's erroneous to infer that the number of DGU as a statistical aggregate would be overly adversely impacted by the further inclusion of female respondents such that the 1.33% figure would change drastically. Especially in figures from recent years where the amount of women obtaining CHLs or LTCs has skyrocketed.
B) Coming from the St. Louis area, I had daily anecdotal experiences from customers who had unreported DGUs in the East St. Louis area. Hemenway infers that such instances are NOT commonplace enough to be statistically relevant, which I wholeheartedly reject.
C) Analyses surrounding DGUs DO NOT take into account what I refer to as the "Beware Dog" principle, wherein criminal acts are deterred through the criminal's awareness of their potential victim being in possession of a firearm. Obviously there is no way to quantify such a figure, but it warrants consideration in such a discussion.
D) While Kleck himself seems to personally believe DGU numbers to fall within the higher range of his estimates, this should not detract from the fact that his work does represent the possibilities of far lower estimates.

There are many more issues I have with this piece, but will reserve posting more on this until
A) it becomes further relevant to the discussion at large
B) particular points stemming from the article are raised(an interesting discussion regarding the approach to/ interpretation of statistics could be had on this particular matter)
C) Any clarity or links are requested

I personally don't find the 1.33% number to be beyond the pale of possibility, but am willing to entertain both Cooks figure as well as the NCVS study that manages to get the number even lower still. In either case the number of DGUs is sufficient enough to make the argument.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

So if a country had more murderers than other countries, you'd just make murder legal?

Think about it for a second. There's a reason we have laws. "Some people will do it anyway" isn't an excuse to not have any of the other laws we have to keep people safe.

So imo this logic doesn't hold up. You have to start somewhere! Fighting fire with fire clearly hasn't worked. It doesn't matter how many there are -- we need to start making progress, so that our kids don't have to grow up and live with the fear of this nonsense.

Fucking awful example, make murder legal? Yes, that is equatable to what I was saying. I asked that particular question, because truefenix's post made it sound so simple. Other countries apparently found it to be pretty damn simple, we just gotta follow their example right? I was asking if their situation was comparable to ours. It probably isn't in terms of the sheer amount of guns both registered and unregistered out there, which I'm assuming is why you felt the need to go straight to treating me like an idiot with the make murder legal thing.

Within a 3 year period I survived two gun related incidents. One I survived through nothing but dumb pure luck, one for making the right decision barely before I would have been shot, you're preaching to the choir. I'd 100000000000% be down for something feasible. You tell me to think about it for a second and feel the need to remind me why we have laws like I'm some fucking moron or am ignorant to gun violence. I've thought about it for a second, I've thought about all of it for a lot of seconds. Believe me, I've spent a lot of time daydreaming about what it'd be like if there were no guns. I spend a lot of time thinking about what happened, or what could have happened if I decided to take history 1st hour instead of 3rd hour, and what can still happen. What region of the country do you live in, Crimson? I ask because if you don't live in the southwest region of the country, or if you haven't lived there for a significant chunk of time, you don't understand the gun culture of rural Americans. There is absolutely zero chance guns can be taken without violence breaking out, it is hardwired in to people's brains here as something valuable and worth dying over. I'd love to be proven wrong.

 

[ChaosTheory]

I'm saying that if they regarded him as a threat from the jump, every cop on that scene could have gotten between him and that door before he walked from one end of the van to the other.
Before they LET HIM walk from one end of the van to the other.
Before they LET HIM open that door and shot him in the back.
Cops have no problem any other time tackling a suspect to the ground, locking him in a chokehold, restraining him four or five guys to one, pulling out a taser or a baton, etcetera etcetera. Why not now? Why did they let him even REACH, let alone open the door, without stopping him if he was such a big threat that he had to be shot in the back in front of his children to subdue him?

They fucked up. Completely. And now this man, who did NOTHING except try and break up a fight between two women, is never going to be able to walk again, and his children are going to have to live with the memory of law enforcement filling their father with lead, because they couldn't do their fucking jobs right.
And don't give me any of that quotation mark innocent bullshit here, because Jacob Blake could've literally been Satan himself, and it STILL wouldn't change the fact that those cops did not follow safe or sane protocol in any useful capacity. But he's not. He's another black man who got shot by police for no good fucking reason.
Tackle him. Taze him. Pin him down. Stop him before he walks all the way around the van. Do fucking anything except wait until he gives you an excuse to shoot him.
But no. Here we are again, blaming the minority because the cop can't do his job.

So you blame the police for allowing this to happen. They should've taken him down before he got to the door and reached in. I suppose that's what you would've done?

Let me ask you... What if the dude broke free from the officers and instead of walking to the door, he reached at his waist band? Just sit there and see what happens?

How about the two videos in my original post? What should they have done differently? Just not bothered these guys in the first place? Fucking cops that they are.

 

[ChaosTheory]

View attachment 17356

I guess so. Let's get busy taking the guns away so the cops are the only ones that have them, right?

You anti-cop types are some bad motherfuckers.

 

[ChaosTheory]

Full on boot fellatio my friend.

It’s ridiculous how brainwashed some people have become. Scary times.

Where you been, homie? You were all passionate about that Austin shooting and wanted to discuss. Then you went Houdini for a few weeks.

This one working better for you?

 

[KingHippo]

Who said I want to take the guns away? I just don't want enforcers of the states armed to the teeth and gassing citizens for being upset that they constantly murder the people in their communities and protect the unhinged vigilantes that continue to threaten and kill people for fighting back against systemic violence.

I ask so little, but the need to murder someone who would disobey an order from a state-sanctioned official is so strong in the minds of so many that sometimes I'm at a loss.

Like imagine showing a video of gestapo with enough numbers and arms to fight Moby Dick shoving people around and expect me to salute the fucking pigs lol

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

So you blame the police for allowing this to happen. They should've taken him down before he got to the door and reached in. I suppose that's what you would've done?

Let me ask you... What if the dude broke free from the officers and instead of walking to the door, he reached at his waist band? Just sit there and see what happens?

How about the two videos in my original post? What should they have done differently? Just not bothered these guys in the first place? Fucking cops that they are.

Oh, okay. You really want the smoke, then.
By which I mean you've already made your mind up, and you just want to defend the people who did their job wrong and blame the black man who didn't deserve to get shot.
Cool.

Whataboutisms already, and we've barely met. Could've at least bought me a drink first.
Don't try the distraction from the original point shit on me. I get enough of that from the three or four Trump people who still have the balls to defend that moron in my presence.

Again I will say, the cops fucked up. Period.
It's their job to do EVERYTHING in their power to subdue a suspect without discharging their firearm. Those two cops who followed him around the car gave him metaphorical/literal rope to lynch himself by not charging and detaining him first. There is no excuse. At all.

 

[NaCl man]

Oh, okay. You really want the smoke, then.
By which I mean you've already made your mind up, and you just want to defend the people who did their job wrong and blame the black man who didn't deserve to get shot.
Cool.

Whataboutisms already, and we've barely met. Could've at least bought me a drink first.
Don't try the distraction from the original point shit on me. I get enough of that from the three or four Trump people who still have the balls to defend that moron in my presence.

Again I will say, the cops fucked up. Period.
It's their job to do EVERYTHING in their power to subdue a suspect without discharging their firearm. Those two cops who followed him around the car gave him metaphorical/literal rope to lynch himself by not charging and detaining him first. There is no excuse. At all.

There is a 2nd video shot which shows the other side of the car before he walks around to open the door and it looks like they tried to restrain him before he got away and went to the car door.
Its on youtube if you want to see it. I won't upload it here because it shows the shooting.


Edit
Turns out he had a knife.. that explains them backing off after he got away.They tazered him which didn't stop him. Looks as if they tried everything they could.

This is a common theme with these situations latley. the media show only half the story which starts riots and then when the whole story comes out is "oops better turn of the comment section"

I swear they only show what they want so it will start more riots so they can report on the new riots.

Seriously fuck the media

 

[ChaosTheory]

I ask so little, but the need to murder someone who would disobey an order from a state-sanctioned official is so strong in the minds of so many that sometimes I'm at a loss.

Again, watch that video of the 22-year-old deputy in particular. That became training material. The perpetrator went back to his vehicle and pulled out a gun to use against the deputy.

Or as you might say: disobeyed an order from a state-sanctioned official.

If the deputy had shot that man before he retrieved his rifle, there would still be dissidents like yourself calling him Gestapo, pig, citizen-killer, etc.

But he would have been justified and more importantly his wife wouldn't be a widow and his two kids wouldn't grow up without their father.

 

[ChaosTheory]

Oh, okay. You really want the smoke, then.
By which I mean you've already made your mind up, and you just want to defend the people who did their job wrong and blame the black man who didn't deserve to get shot.
Cool.

Whataboutisms already, and we've barely met. Could've at least bought me a drink first.
Don't try the distraction from the original point shit on me. I get enough of that from the three or four Trump people who still have the balls to defend that moron in my presence.

Again I will say, the cops fucked up. Period.
It's their job to do EVERYTHING in their power to subdue a suspect without discharging their firearm. Those two cops who followed him around the car gave him metaphorical/literal rope to lynch himself by not charging and detaining him first. There is no excuse. At all.

It's fine. I've played the logic out in my head already and it doesn't work. I was just curious if you'd try. Nope.

 

[M2Dave]

Certain NBA teams refuse to participate in the playoffs. Unsurprisingly, ratings have decreased. Kenny Smith walked out on TNT in the middle of the broadcast earlier tonight.

Have sports in America ever been this politicized before?

 

[KingHippo]

Wow, "dissidents." Tell us how you really feel.

Sucks that he lost his life in a crappy way like that. That said, in 1998 there were 61 incidents of officer deaths in the line of duty, that fella being one of 9 that were shot at a routine traffic stop. 9. By comparison, police killed 352 people that year. You do the math, and I'd say that, while tragic, the idea of policing, especially a traffic stop, being this especially deadly career that needs more deadly use of force is pretty weak. These are people we're talking about, but then again, so are the people they're shooting, and there's a pretty big difference between the two.

In 2019, police shot 1,004 people to death, while there 89 police deaths, 48 of which were felonious, and 6 of which were at traffic stops. Seems like one number has hovered at a certain range and the other has shot up astronomically. Hmmmmmmm...

Could it be that as police tactics and equipment get deadlier, deadly force against citizens has gone up while officer deaths have stayed relatively stagnant the past 20 years? Hmm...