Execution Barriers. Should they be patched?

[Badboy Takuma]

I mean, you literally hold forward and double-tap 2. Anyone complaining about that probably shouldn't be playing competitive-style fighting games.

Like, for anyone who can't do that, how did you ever play Test Your Might? Or any other game that requires rapidly mashing a button for a QTE or getting out of a grab, etc.

he means those kung lao style rapid inputs like in mkx 21212 or something like that.
yes those inputs are pretty dumb and a pain in the ass to execute even for experienced players. on pad most players tend to use a slide with the thumb in order to execute those dumbass inputs lul

of course nothing should be pached here though

 

[wsj515]

THANK YOU for responding to my actual question. Seriously. But it isn't a non-starter, as they definitely are execution barriers that the developers put in. And I'm sure I could do them with practice. Here might be a more interesting question: do you think it's fair that Jacqui has a move that is affected by online lag in a way that other character's moves aren't? Also I'm curious if like rainuS any of you actually would prefer that execution was more demanding in this game

I think in a way you are asking the question that I proposed, but in the wrong way. You're basically asking if it's fair that there are varying amounts of execution is required in order to play different characters, and the answer is a big yes. If you can't execute core parts of a character's move-set, there are plenty of characters to choose from. No one is stopping you from playing someone else. The game would become bland and less interesting if every single character felt similar to play.

 

[methademic]

No. Get fucking good

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

Yeah I agree most execution in this game is easy. I was referring to specific strings that the developers purposefully made difficult like the examples I gave (tbh though those are the only examples I can think of)

The 21212 is actually easy to do. It's just a matter if training and how you do it. Nothing complicated about it and that's what's tripping everyone is they are trying to do it several different ways to oversimplify it.

In one motion you slide thumb from 2-1--212 all together. No pause and don't dial any part of it.
What I was doing wrong at first was I was used to 21122 sliding from 2-1 then going a bit past 1 and coming back over it which made me hit 211212 instead of 21212. As long as you hit them right and do it all quick in one slide I get it 99% of the time.
Note: don't input anything after 2-1-2-1-2. If you do it won't allow you to cancel with Slide, acid or LnL 2/D3.

I personally like the execution barrier on certain things especially on Erron Black. This way every online Erron can't play him decently without putting in the time and effort. I'd be fine with a frame or two additional window for the 21212 but I don't want it to be too easy.
This game allready feels easy AF, most characters are far to simple and easily picked up. There isn't really any hard combos just plus on block perfect links here and there and few hard dial in strings. I actually want the opposite for more Characters to have more difficulty with cancels, combos and moves. But I understand they want every stan online to have fun and that's fine so it's nice that I have little things like 21212. Kinda miss 21122 though.

I'm fine with a few harder ones to have a bit more frames buffer window though. That perfect balance between To Hard(need to practice it) and achievable.

 

[juicepouch]

I've always thought that high execution is unnecessary. The part of fighting games that drew me in the first place (mind games, spacing, footsies, etc)... That's the meat of the genre. I straight up avoid characters that I have to spend my time learning whatever wacky inputs I need to be able to do the fun part.

I guess that's my way of agreeing with you. I get some people probably like that execution aspect but for me it's never been anything but an annoyance.

Full disclosure though, I haven't actually bought mk11 yet so I can't speak to any specific buttons in the game

 

[scrubjesus111]

I mean, you literally hold forward and double-tap 2. Anyone complaining about that probably shouldn't be playing competitive-style fighting games.

Like, for anyone who can't do that, how did you ever play Test Your Might? Or any other game that requires rapidly mashing a button for a QTE or getting out of a grab, etc.

I thought it was rhetorical. I was fine at Test Your Might, but reflexes are the only thing that TYM tests whereas the main game tests a ton of different skills in addition to reflexes. From a design POV, the other moves in this game are about as easy to pull off as they possibly could be while keeping the core design of allowing for multi-hit strings etc. Smash Ultimate, for a different example, has very easy inputs. Smash would need to require more inputs or stricter timing to have increased difficulty, but then the core gameplay would change as a result. It would play like a different game. Here, with EB and Jacqui are examples of inputs that were made stricter by fancy of the devs in a way that I'm saying does not affect the quality of the core game design for better. They are unnecessarily more difficult than is dictated by the core design of MK11. F22 and 21212 would be perfectly aligned with the design of MK11 if they were as easy as any other move in the game.

 

[Kroaken]

No.

 

[scrubjesus111]

The 21212 is actually easy to do. It's just a matter if training and how you do it. Nothing complicated about it and that's what's tripping everyone is they are trying to do it several different ways to oversimplify it.

In one motion you slide thumb from 2-1--212 all together. No pause and don't dial any part of it.
What I was doing wrong at first was I was used to 21122 sliding from 2-1 then going a bit past 1 and coming back over it which made me hit 211212 instead of 21212. As long as you hit them right and do it all quick in one slide I get it 99% of the time.
Note: don't input anything after 2-1-2-1-2. If you do it won't allow you to cancel with Slide, acid or LnL 2/D3.

I personally like the execution barrier on certain things especially on Erron Black. This way every online Erron can't play him decently without putting in the time and effort. I'd be fine with a frame or two additional window for the 21212 but I don't want it to be too easy.
This game allready feels easy AF, most characters are far to simple and easily picked up. There isn't really any hard combos just plus on block perfect links here and there and few hard dial in strings. I actually want the opposite for more Characters to have more difficulty with cancels, combos and moves. But I understand they want every stan online to have fun and that's fine so it's nice that I have little things like 21212. Kinda miss 21122 though.

I'm fine with a few harder ones to have a bit more frames buffer window though. That perfect balance between To Hard(need to practice it) and achievable.

Amazing answer. Thank you.

 

[Auron]

You are all missing the question... just going to start a new thread I guess and reword it

21212 is fine, you just piano it all at once. It is a bit weird but nothing terrible.

For a community engineer I would expect for helpful comments.


I would expect a more helpful comment from someone who represents this site as an admin. The question was: should there be artificially imposed difficulty in MK11? Like, the devs made Jacqui's forward 2 thing harder than it could be. It could be easier. Why not make it easier? Or is there a good reason ? I'm not even a Jacqui or EB player. It's just a question about design.

Just double tap, it's not hard at all. If someone can't train a simple double tap or piano a string and cancel from the animation that person probably seriously need some time in training mode.

Incidentally, the hardest execution thing I've seen in this game is probably flawless blocking which used to be ridiculously easy with a double tap OS that they took out.

 

[Peckapowa]

the machine gun inputs piss me of in this too, you really just have to train your muscle memory to input the excent number of buttons needed and then input your cancel later with the proper timing on screen.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

There are some that could be easier and I do understand how some want it slightly easier for the sake of consistency online during lag.
There is an input shortcut for Erron Black's 21212 (On The Shoot) string:
You input 211,1+2 and somehow it comes out as 21212 in the game.
I prefer doing it slide 2>1>2>1>2(sliding my thumb back and forth between 2 and 1 twice.

But as for others I do think some are harder than they need to be. Can't remember the name but one of Sonya's is dumb hard and Jacqui's MKX stanky leg was mad hard. Stuff like that could use more buffer frames to input them.

 

[Hor_PeT]

My weakness is the DBF command grab moves especially cancelling it from a fast button.
I practiced a lot in MKX as it was so fun with Jason but it hurt a lot lol. Especiall B1 xx DBF2 with the variation who had DB1 a special move and could not buffer DB1xxF2 lol.

With Erron I started practicing 211 1+2 method and it took only few minutes to get comfortable with it in the practice room. Probably will drop it half of the time during a real match so more practice is required. Of course it could be easier with longer window - there is no point making it that hard.
Sliding method was not comfortable to me - I felt less control over the input. But it is matter of practice. To me 211 1+2 is pretty comfortable input - just for krushing blow I need to hold both buttons for long lol.

Kitana's B231 pisses me off too. You have plenty of time though just easy to mess it up as in your mind there is the slow Kitana move but need to input it fast haha.
I like inputting the moves like it happens - it is pretty weird inputting it differently to me but just need different thinking about that string.

 

[ZeroSymbolic]

I don't mind something being hard if it serves a purpose, but making something hard to have an execution barrier is kinda stupid IMO.

 

[Juggs]

should ‘artificial’ execution barriers be removed? ex: erron black’s 21212 and jacqui’s uppercut thing. So I legit CANNOT do cancels off of erron’s 21212 string consistently online. I’d love to play the character but that string is central to his game and I can't do it. Jackqui also has something that is arbitrarily hard to do imo. My question is: should NRS patch these to make them easier to do? Or do they add some positives to the game design?

They aren’t hard to do. They just take a little practice. That’s it really, just lab for like 10 mins and that’s all it takes, lol.

 

[deathstroke187]

should ‘artificial’ execution barriers be removed? ex: erron black’s 21212 and jacqui’s uppercut thing. So I legit CANNOT do cancels off of erron’s 21212 string consistently online. I’d love to play the character but that string is central to his game and I can't do it. Jackqui also has something that is arbitrarily hard to do imo. My question is: should NRS patch these to make them easier to do? Or do they add some positives to the game design?

you should had made a poll , i can of agree like noob optimal and jacqui mashing give my hands cramps lol. not like its hard to mash but it shouldnt be a thing imo.

 

[Error404]

No. First of all mash strings are made so that you can't cancel on certain hits. There is a mechanical reason for them to exist. And stop asking for the game to be made for babies FFS.

 

[Eji1700]

They aren’t hard to do. They just take a little practice. That’s it really, just lab for like 10 mins and that’s all it takes, lol.

So why have them be that hard? If it only takes 10 min to learn, why have it at all? Does it add any value to the actual game?

 

[Juggs]

So why have them be that hard? If it only takes 10 min to learn, why have it at all? Does it add any value to the actual game?

This response makes no sense. I said they aren’t hard, then you ask why have them be that hard? You’re literally responding to me saying they aren’t that hard by asking why they are that hard, lol.

Something requiring practice, believe it or not, isn’t grounds for removal.

 

[Tony at Home]

Like, for anyone who can't do that, how did you ever play Test Your Might?

I would take a comb and run it across the surface area of my controller rappidly. Worked like a charm.

I've been playing fighting games since 2011 and can't do rapid inputs like that consistently. Its not a practice thing because I have never stopped trying to do it. Some people just don't have hands wired to be able to do that. It's weird but its just the breaks.

having to press a button rapidly is a feature of many games. How do you do this if you're unable to hold forward and tap a button twice?

Very few game quick time events actually have presses as rapid as Jacqui. The only game I can think of that had "rapid press" requirements that I needed assistance with was the Prince of Persia reboot. Spiderman PS4 got close (also worth noting there's an accessibility option in Spiderman PS4 that removes the mash events for cases like mine)

Im fine with them for Jacqui though since the character doesn't need it to be good.

And Errons I can do in my sleep because I can just kinda "plink" the input by having my thumb slide from 2 to 1 quickly. I can understand if someone couldn't do this even with practice if their hands just didn't work well for that specific motion.

The main takeaway I'd want to point out is some things can't be improved with practice. So "git gud" is generally pretty annoying to see here.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Some people just don't have hands wired to be able to do that. It's weird but its just the breaks.

I have a hard time believing that you're phyiscally unable to rapidly tap a button twice. Unless you have an unusual injury or something external preventing you from using your hands in a normal fashion.

 

[Tony at Home]

I have a hard time believing that you're phyiscally unable to rapidly tap a button twice. Unless you have an unusual injury or something external preventing you from using your hands in a normal fashion.

I'm not lying. I cannot consistently do Jacqui's input.

You're purposely generalizing it to "you're phyiscally unable to rapidly tap a button twice." because that way you can say one who can't perform this must also must be unable to play almost any other game that requires rapid inputs- regardless of whether "rapid" here means "twice in four frames" or "twice in eight frames"

This input is pretty uniquely fast and if you actually discern how rapid it is it shouldn't be at all surprising that someone can do some simple "lift a boulder" QT event in God of War but can't pull of something that Tekken Master was dropping in Summit of Time.

As for my hands I'm a softare engineer by trade and can type around ~70ish WPM on a normal day.

 

[NeonGroovyGator]

I think artificial execution barriers are a bit gatekeepy.
Execution is the least interesting part about fighting games for me. But some people really dig it and they're part of the playerbase too so w/e

 

[kevkopdx]

I'm not lying. I cannot consistently do Jacqui's input.

You're purposely generalizing it to "you're phyiscally unable to rapidly tap a button twice." because that way you can say one who can't perform this must also must be unable to play almost any other game that requires rapid inputs- regardless of whether "rapid" here means "twice in four frames" or "twice in eight frames"

This input is pretty uniquely fast and if you actually discern how rapid it is it shouldn't be at all surprising that someone can do some simple "lift a boulder" QT event in God of War but can't pull of something that Tekken Master was dropping in Summit of Time.

As for my hands I'm a softare engineer by trade and can type around ~70ish WPM on a normal day.

Ya it’s not consistent for me either. Even wonderchef commented on the summit stream about the move’s difficulty.

 

[Tony at Home]

To be clear I wouldn't want them to change Jacqui's F22

Jacqui does really good damage with every touch and it'd be dumb if she could easily get better damage.

It's not really an "artificial execution" barrier since it serves a purpose.

Erron Blacks 21212 kinda serves a purpose as well because it forces you to commit to the whole string regardless of what happens with 21 on block. Like you cant jump in punch 21 then decide what to do based on whether it was blocked or not.

An "arbitrary" thing was more like the games initial way of "amplifying" moves (when it wasnt universally the interact button). That literally served no purpose but to add more button pressing and memorization. So not surprising they removed it.

 

[DeftMonk]

You didn't really answer the question -- it's a pretty straightforward question, and titles don't have much to do with it.

I'll ask again -- having to press a button rapidly is a feature of many games. How do you do this if you're unable to hold forward and tap a button twice?

By definition, every movement, special, and combo in a fighting game is likely 'harder than it could be', so that's not a particularly good argument in this case.

Crimson, there is no need to try to compete with Ray Arkon for NRS fanboy champ. I don’t think the f22 thing is hard but it just doesn’t feel like fun design when compared to things like just frame tekken uppercuts (which is obviously what they were going for). Mashing has been a game mechanic for many games that aren’t competitive fighters yes...but when you compare mashing to plinking,piano hands, or just frame inputs it feels so out of place as a move input mechanic in this genre. The point of fighters is literally to relax and well time your inputs...not mash. They could have even tried something akin to like gears of war active reload mechanic instead.