Execution Barriers. Should they be patched?

[OutworldKeith]

This is Mortal Kombat. One of the easier fighting games execution wise. Just practice jeez.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Crimson, there is no need to try to compete with Ray Arkon for NRS fanboy champ. I don’t think the f22 thing is hard but it just doesn’t feel like fun design when compared to things like just frame tekken uppercuts (which is obviously what they were going for). Mashing has been a game mechanic for many games that aren’t competitive fighters yes...but when you compare mashing to plinking,piano hands, or just frame inputs it feels so out of place as a move input mechanic in this genre. The point of fighters is literally to relax and well time your inputs...not mash. They could have even tried something akin to like gears of war active reload mechanic instead.

There are lots of fighters that have required controller-breaking inputs.. Kabal in MK9, C. Viper in SF4, Tekken movement in general, lots of anime fighters, Smash Melee in general.. The Jacqui f22 is literally a double-tap. You just hit the button twice quickly and it comes out.

I don't think there's any comparison here, and I definitely wouldn't call it a "mash". Imo people are vastly overrating how difficult it is to do. I'm no high-execution god, and it's no problem for me at all.

Also, it's one of Jacqui's least important inputs. I don't get what the hubbub is about.

 

[Rorshock]

Isn't this, like, the easiest execution has ever been in an MK game though? The cancel windows in MK11 are way longer than previous NRS titles. I will agree that the timing of wakeups is weird.

Improving at your execution over time is one of the fundamental joys of fighting games imo. There's no SFIV C. Viper in this game who is pushing the execution barrier to very high heights. I love the feeling of when something that seemed super difficult to execute yesterday suddenly becomes easy after practice.

 

[scrubjesus111]

Watching Scar drop the 21212 string vs Semij in Winners QF at Summit of Time. Offline tournament. Apparently the string is so easy that one of the top NRS players dropped it three times in one match... What are you guys trying to prove?

 

[NaCl man]

Come on man really?
what are you after here easy mode 1 button mash combos?

There are characters that are easier to play and there are characters who are more execution heavy.
Exicution heavy characters take practice.

I play Kazuya in tekken do you think i just picked up the stick and could immediately kdb, wave dash, CHdf2 PEWGF? No that shit takes time and practice. You get out what you put in.

 

[OutworldKeith]

Watching Scar drop the 21212 string vs Semij in Winners QF at Summit of Time. Offline tournament. Apparently the string is so easy that one of the top NRS players dropped it three times in one match... What are you guys trying to prove?

Lmao this community will never learn man. Just because someone plays in tournaments doesn’t make them a god lol. Human error, nerves, excitement, etc. any of them could make you drop a combo or fumble in a situation you have a 6th sense for.

 

[magandi]

Watching Scar drop the 21212 string vs Semij in Winners QF at Summit of Time. Offline tournament. Apparently the string is so easy that one of the top NRS players dropped it three times in one match... What are you guys trying to prove?

no matter how easy execution in modern games is, top players will drop combos occasionally. thats just part of the game. the heat of the match influences your execution and thats why it's important.

 

[OutworldKeith]

no matter how easy execution in modern games is, top players will drop combos occasionally. thats just part of the game. the heat of the match influences your execution and thats why it's important.

The fact that this has to be said lol.

 

[leoj89]

Imo yes it should be easier so I can play Jacqui . Best skins in the game btw.

 

[scrubjesus111]

@ OutworldKeith @magandi quote from thread: "question is kind of a non-starter as the things you listed are definitely not worth considering as an execution barrier, they just aren't difficult if you have ever played a fighting game before, or have spent a small amount of time practicing in training mode."

Another quote: "They aren’t hard to do. They just take a little practice. That’s it really, just lab for like 10 mins and that’s all it takes, lol."

Another: "I mean, you literally hold forward and double-tap 2. Anyone complaining about that probably shouldn't be playing competitive-style fighting games."

This is a common sentiment in this thread. And then Scar and TekkenMaster drop these very moves. Not saying they can't be made easy with enough practice -- but they obviously are execution barriers. I mean that's just a clear fact

 

[Pan1cMode]

The only execution thing I’ve found to be difficult in MK11 is cassie’s Db4(amp) into b13 (which is an actual 2 frame link that can’t be plinked) in Yas Queen variation.

Here are the reasons for higher execution in fighting games:

• character variety (so characters okay differently)
• strength of tool (powerful tools should be difficult to use)
• mechanical reason (such as making sure a string cannot be hit/block confirmed)

It makes sense that some moves have higher execution requirements. Having said that, I honestly don’t think the execution requirement in MK11 is all that high. Jacqui f22 is much easier than stanky 4u4 was in MKX. Erron Black’s 21212 string isn’t that hard to get out.

For these, you’ll just need to practice.

For things like Cassie’s link though; that is just arbitrarily high and doesn’t really serve a purpose other than to nerf her (already decently low) midscreen combo damage.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

My weakness is the DBF command grab moves especially cancelling it from a fast button.
I practiced a lot in MKX as it was so fun with Jason but it hurt a lot lol. Especiall B1 xx DBF2 with the variation who had DB1 a special move and could not buffer DB1xxF2 lol.

With Erron I started practicing 211 1+2 method and it took only few minutes to get comfortable with it in the practice room. Probably will drop it half of the time during a real match so more practice is required. Of course it could be easier with longer window - there is no point making it that hard.
Sliding method was not comfortable to me - I felt less control over the input. But it is matter of practice. To me 211 1+2 is pretty comfortable input - just for krushing blow I need to hold both buttons for long lol.

Kitana's B231 pisses me off too. You have plenty of time though just easy to mess it up as in your mind there is the slow Kitana move but need to input it fast haha.
I like inputting the moves like it happens - it is pretty weird inputting it differently to me but just need different thinking about that string.

I for some reason can do DBF inputs just fine but I usually had the hardest time getting it down off B1 DBF2 on MKX but I think it's muscle memory now. My brother has the hardest time with Kollector's DBF3 CG and I think they could have made them DB instead for simplicity like Kotals, there is no reason why some are very easy while others are unnecessarily hard.

The 21212 input shortcut 211 1+2 is weird to me because you have to press both buttons at the same time. If it was 1+3 or 2+4 it would be far easier. Even though I enjoy hard inputs I'd be fine with 21212 being slightly easier.

Kitanas B231 is just a move that has to be dialed all at one before it comes out. They have alot of those now just like Errons B222 you can input B2 and B222 only not the second hit.and EBs B2U4222, B122, F2121. All of them are dial combos and his 21 has a weird cancel window that you have to wait to input.

 

[Tony at Home]

The Jacqui f22 is literally a double-tap. You just hit the button twice quickly and it comes out.

Honest question. If it were a 2 frame input that required two button presses would you still say its no different than any other double tap?

What's your frame cutoff exactly? 1, 2, 3, 5?

At what point does saying "its a double tap" mean absolutely nothing in regard to execution given pressing the same button in two frames is humanly impossible and pressing the same button in 10 is?

EDIT
I agree Jacqui's f22 janky input should stay the same becuz its stupid otherwise, and I know you don't mean any ill but the tone does come off a bit comdescending when you say its no harder than any double tap and plenty people just can't do it

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Honest question. If it were a 2 frame input that required two button presses would you still say its no different than any other double tap?

What's your frame cutoff exactly? 1, 2, 3, 5?

At what point does saying "its a double tap" mean absolutely nothing in regard to execution given pressing the same button in two frames is humanly impossible and pressing the same button in 10 is?

EDIT
I agree Jacqui's f22 janky input should stay the same becuz its stupid otherwise, and I know you don't mean any ill but the tone does come off a bit comdescending when you say its no harder than any double tap and plen3people just can't do it

A button a frame? Probably, yeah. That's over the line for sure.

But this is nothing that extreme. If I felt it wasn't possible to do consistently, that's one thing, but f22 is pretty straightforward once you get the hang of it.

I don't mean to be condescending at all, but it's kind of counterproductive when people complain about something that takes maybe one lab session to get right. It's just strange to hear people talk about it like it's MK9 Skarlet BnBs or something.

 

[Pterodactyl]

As a Jacqui main, if I didn’t have to practice the execution to be able to maximize my damage it wouldn’ be nearly as fun.

Every time I land a three shoryuken Jacqui combo I feel like a god and I wouldn’t trade that for the world.

Should every character be execution heavy? Of course not.

But let those of us that enjoy the challenge have our characters to play.

 

[Hitoshura]

should ‘artificial’ execution barriers be removed? ex: erron black’s 21212 and jacqui’s uppercut thing. So I legit CANNOT do cancels off of erron’s 21212 string consistently online. I’d love to play the character but that string is central to his game and I can't do it. Jackqui also has something that is arbitrarily hard to do imo. My question is: should NRS patch these to make them easier to do? Or do they add some positives to the game design?

See, this is something I've been thinking about. The execution is this game is fine, but there are these weird instances where it's not. Sometimes in combos you can't cancel a special move off a normal string like you could while just doing it stand alone, which is normal in fighters; however, it's really tight for no reason! For example, Noob Saibot's standing 4 can be special cancelable into whatever. I usually use it in corner combos to push damage. So, the average combo for Noob in the corner looks like this:

1,1,3 xx Amp Teleslam, (walk forward) 4 xx Shadow Upknee, b1, 1+3 xx Spirit Ball = 39%

[4 xx Shadow Upknee] <- This right here can get extremely annoying to connect because I have to special cancel into Shadow Upknee as soon as the standing 4 connects with the opponent and even then I can mess it up. It's so tight that it doesn't need to be.

Some character have similar problems jailing the opponent from a confirm d1 into a comb string. It can be done; however, the timing is rather tight even with frame advantage.

There is a difference in execution barriers in games like Guilty Gear, King of Fighters, Street Fighter, etc versus MK11. I feel as though the execution barriers in MK11 are somewhat contrived. I'm not asking for it to be stupid easy to execute, but if they added 1 or 2 more frames to some of these instances of unnecessarily tight barrier it would be less of an issue while maintaining the skill level required to play a character. I play other fighters that have execution barriers that are high, but it feels natural. It doesn't always feel like that in this game.

@Alex_Smith posted a similar thread after the Beta making suggestions of quality of life improvements for MK11. It references this issue that some of us are having.

MK11 Quality of Life Improvements

 

[Eji1700]

This response makes no sense. I said they aren’t hard, then you ask why have them be that hard? You’re literally responding to me saying they aren’t that hard by asking why they are that hard, lol.

Something requiring practice, believe it or not, isn’t grounds for removal.

Ah we're going to pretend that errons string isn't deliberately harder than the rest, fine.

Which is really the point, they don't add anything for anyone who's been playing fighting games for years. This shit is trivial to anyone who's played forever.

They also don't do anything crazy when you can do them, so it's not like making it as hard as the rest of the game, rather than harder, is going to suddenly open the flood gates to a world of scrubs who now can't be stopped (and frankly if it could that's a balance issue that shouldn't be solved with mediocre execution tests).

So then, again, what does it add? Clearly you don't even notice it, which just goes to show the answer is basically nothing. There's an artificial barrier maybe for some flavorish reasons for beginners, but mostly it's just wasted time for the average player and nonexistant for anyone who's used to this. It's not like there's a lack of shit to practice that actually matters, so why even have this shit that pretends to make you better.

To add, something like EGWF i kinda get. I don't like tekken because i just don't enjoy a game that expects me to spend an hour a day practicing movement to be half decent, but at least it's a consistent design decision and I can respect there's peopel who enjoy that. There's a ton of finicky execution in tekken that all adds up. Every now and then someone drops something, be it a movement option/punish/tech and it fucking matters. This shit isn't anywhere near that hard, so it's literally only making scrubs waste time on shit that matters a lot less than what they SHOULD be focusing on (real fundamentals not rhythm games)

 

[ShadyHeart]

There isn't a single string in this game that has difficult inputs (that Sonya string that requires mashing is kinda dumb though tbh). If you mess a string up, it's because you input it too slow or pressed an extra button in the middle of it. Jacqui F2 is the only thing in the game that I drop on rare occasion and it's only because I don't play her.

It seems a lot of people don't understand how strings function in this game. Whenever you input something, there is a window starting from frame 1 where you can input a follow up. The window is GARGANTUAN compared to other fighting games with the only limitation being you have to input something before you hit the cancel time. Every normal/string that has a follow up string or is special cancellable has a frame that it will always cancel from and you cannot input anything after. The only exception to this are certain amplified follow ups on special moves that can be delayed.

Tldr if you just dial the string (including a special move follow up) instead of trying to time inputs you'll always get it.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

I just went in the lab with Erron for 3 minutes for the first time to experiment. I just slide my thumb over 21, do it again, then hit 2 and comes out. I'm getting it 100% of the time on PS4 pad after literally a couple mins of practice.

It's actually kind of fun.

 

[Kroaken]

It's too bad Rising Thunder didn't work out. There's clearly a market for it.

 

[NaCl man]

Ah we're going to pretend that errons string isn't deliberately harder than the rest, fine.

Which is really the point, they don't add anything for anyone who's been playing fighting games for years. This shit is trivial to anyone who's played forever.

They also don't do anything crazy when you can do them, so it's not like making it as hard as the rest of the game, rather than harder, is going to suddenly open the flood gates to a world of scrubs who now can't be stopped (and frankly if it could that's a balance issue that shouldn't be solved with mediocre execution tests).

So then, again, what does it add? Clearly you don't even notice it, which just goes to show the answer is basically nothing. There's an artificial barrier maybe for some flavorish reasons for beginners, but mostly it's just wasted time for the average player and nonexistant for anyone who's used to this. It's not like there's a lack of shit to practice that actually matters, so why even have this shit that pretends to make you better.

To add, something like EGWF i kinda get. I don't like tekken because i just don't enjoy a game that expects me to spend an hour a day practicing movement to be half decent, but at least it's a consistent design decision and I can respect there's peopel who enjoy that. There's a ton of finicky execution in tekken that all adds up. Every now and then someone drops something, be it a movement option/punish/tech and it fucking matters. This shit isn't anywhere near that hard, so it's literally only making scrubs waste time on shit that matters a lot less than what they SHOULD be focusing on (real fundamentals not rhythm games)

So what you seem to be asking for is access to said characters best tools without having to put in any time learning how to do them. This is a fighting game it is all about rythem, timing and learning. That is why they have longevity. Why should the game give you a free pass? Would you expect to pick up a guitar for the first time and instantly play. Lab it , learn it

 

[Bliss]

Mortal Kombat has pathetically easy execution. And I like it that way. Don't dumb it down even more, or I might quit!

 

[DragonofDadashov24]

Kung Lao’s string was easy in all MK games, don’t even need to slide anything. You have to press every button in the right order the right time.

 

[Auron]

@ OutworldKeith @magandi quote from thread: "question is kind of a non-starter as the things you listed are definitely not worth considering as an execution barrier, they just aren't difficult if you have ever played a fighting game before, or have spent a small amount of time practicing in training mode."

Another quote: "They aren’t hard to do. They just take a little practice. That’s it really, just lab for like 10 mins and that’s all it takes, lol."

Another: "I mean, you literally hold forward and double-tap 2. Anyone complaining about that probably shouldn't be playing competitive-style fighting games."

This is a common sentiment in this thread. And then Scar and TekkenMaster drop these very moves. Not saying they can't be made easy with enough practice -- but they obviously are execution barriers. I mean that's just a clear fact

People will drop the silliest things under pressure, players drop easy combos in Tekken all the time. SFV players drop combos on occasion for fuck's sake and that game made a conscious effort to be the easiest possible execution of the series.

In a game with a 3f buffer for Flawless blocks you're complaining about this? I mean really? If you wanted to argue how execution is a barrier talk about the damn flawless block, at least that's a valid conversation even though I think it's probably fine as it is.

At what point does saying "its a double tap" mean absolutely nothing in regard to execution given pressing the same button in two frames is humanly impossible and pressing the same button in 10 is?

Google Taunt Jet Upper please, first of all you'll notice it's absolutely humanly possible. And then you'll probably realize that the window in f22 is quite generous by comparison, it would probably be hard if it was an actual shoryuken input.

If something adds a bit of execution to mk11, it's fine. The game's quite easy to pick up and play as it is, which I actually like after 2 years of Tekken. Every character I tried so far was fine after I got the hang of dash cancels and the dial. For the people who think it's very hard just go to training mode and eventually it'll click.

 

[Hor_PeT]

I for some reason can do DBF inputs just fine but I usually had the hardest time getting it down off B1 DBF2 on MKX but I think it's muscle memory now. My brother has the hardest time with Kollector's DBF3 CG and I think they could have made them DB instead for simplicity like Kotals, there is no reason why some are very easy while others are unnecessarily hard.

The 21212 input shortcut 211 1+2 is weird to me because you have to press both buttons at the same time. If it was 1+3 or 2+4 it would be far easier. Even though I enjoy hard inputs I'd be fine with 21212 being slightly easier.

Kitanas B231 is just a move that has to be dialed all at one before it comes out. They have alot of those now just like Errons B222 you can input B2 and B222 only not the second hit.and EBs B2U4222, B122, F2121. All of them are dial combos and his 21 has a weird cancel window that you have to wait to input.

Btw I see the point of dial in combos - it restricts the mixup possibility in the combo so you can expect the result (e.g. on.whiff on reaction you cant stop it).

Concerning Erron I have just 1 day exp but I pretty got comfortable about the dial ins.
I pretty have to accept that I can not decide on the fly to dial in or not... e.g. nobody wants to do B222 on whiff (e.g. opponent rollee) but he can not really react it after B2 but need commitment.
Of course Sonicfox can do it but I rather do not try to do it as it just results unfinished unsafe buttons lol.

With Kitana I had the same problem. I wanted to confirm my B2 (and stagger on block, continue on hit) and that resulted many B2 hits without combo. It was bad approach.
Erron is "better" as B2 stagger is pretty bad so no big deal input the string haha. Same to 21212.