ESPORTS Will Destroy Fighting Games and Will Destroy MK.

[Marlow]

It will be monkey paw'd and you know it in your bones.

It can't go any worse than that time I wished on a Monkey's paw for Shao Kahn to be in MK11.

 

[LaidbackOne]

The "characters had tons of moves in mk9" part got me. Did we play the same MK9 or did someone forget to take off his rose tinted glasses.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

This would make sense if it wasnt blatantly obvious that the expressed intent of MK11 was to make it more accessible. If MK11 was always supposed to be casual why change the formula so radically that literally everyone noticed.

Be honest shadow, automatic meter Regen, defensive bar "cooldowns" recharging fatal blow, removal of wakeups, breakaway were not implemented to make the game more hardcore.

And what about the rest of the post you decided to ignore?

Grade: D- neglected over half the material

When has MK not been accessible?

MK1 is one of the simpler fighting games ever made. The appeal was to be easy to play, more visually impressive than other titles, and to have a headline-grabbing gimmick (gore) and lore.

You don't see crazy SF/anime style inputs, frame-linked combos, super-advanced movement, or any of that stuff in any of the older MKs unless it was a glitch/unintended.

Yet you now have plenty of higher-level mechanics like Flawless block and wavedashing, Fatal Blow cancels, etc. that the casual player never utilizes.

Do we really think that they spent a Kombat Kast explaining that you can now flawless block Jacqui's air normals post-Bionic Bounce with a 6 frame window instead of a 3 frame one so that Johnny Apprentice can beat the AI more easily?

This argument makes no sense.

 

[Demon_0]

People are over-selling MK9 lol. Yeah, it sort of revived MK and was the first real competitive MK game but there was nothing fun about watching Cage mirror matches - players trying to take turns in repeating the same OP string to chip the other one to death.

 

[Courante]

The "characters had tons of moves in mk9" part got me. Did we play the same MK9 or did someone forget to take off his rose tinted glasses.

Are you stupid? Mk9 characters had tons of moves on a single iteration of the character. When you compare them to a single variation in 11 they tend to be far more or just as substantial.

• Energy Ring Blast
• Leg Grab
• Kiss
• Arc Kick
• Kartwheel
• Air Drop
• Air Throw

Also nearly 2 dozen normals plus a dozen or so strings.

that's just Sonya blade.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Are you stupid? Mk9 characters had tons of moves on a single iteration of the character. When you compare them to a single variation in 11 they are far more substantial

• Energy Ring Blast
• Leg Grab
• Kiss
• Arc Kick
• Kartwheel
• Air Drop
• Air Throw

Also nearly 2 dozen normals plus a dozen or so strings.

MK9 Sub Zero:
Iceball, Clone, Slide, Puddle

Look at all those moves man.

 

[Cobainevermind87]

MK9 Sub Zero:
Iceball, Clone, Slide, Puddle

Look at all those moves man.

To be fair DoW had just Amp ice ball and cold shoulder lol.

 

[Courante]

MK9 Sub Zero:
Iceball, Clone, Slide, Puddle

Look at all those moves man.

Sub Zero never had an exhaustive movelist to begin with. You are being myopic cuz yall got called out.

X - tons of moves
9 - core moves
11 - no clone, redundant specials

All in all MK9 characters have comparable move lists overall and yall have to hold that.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

no clone

Wait, is this Tom's hidey?

If so, good job on our podcast yesterday.

 

[Courante]

When has MK not been accessible?

MK1 is one of the simpler fighting games ever made. The appeal was to be easy to play, more visually impressive than other titles, and to have a headline-grabbing gimmick (gore) and lore.

You don't see crazy SF/anime style inputs, frame-linked combos, super-advanced movement, or any of that stuff in any of the MKs unless it was a glitch/unintended.

Yet you now have plenty of higher-level mechanics like Flawless block and wavedashing, Fatal Blow cancels, etc. that the casual player never utilizes.

Do we really think that they spent a Kombat Kast explaining that you can now flawless block Jacqui's air normals post-Bionic Bounce with a 6 frame window instead of a 3 frame one so that Johnny Apprentice can beat the AI more easily?

This argument makes no sense.

You have a bad tendency to ignore the entire point and just restate something you said earlier.

Its not about whether or not MK has always been casual. It's the fact that the design goals of MK11 line up with the same expressed design goals of every other modern fighter coming out. A point you have failed to address 3 times now.

 

[Swindle]

Are you stupid? Mk9 characters had tons of moves on a single iteration of the character. When you compare them to a single variation in 11 they tend to be far more or just as substantial.

• Energy Ring Blast
• Leg Grab
• Kiss
• Arc Kick
• Kartwheel
• Air Drop
• Air Throw

Also nearly 2 dozen normals plus a dozen or so strings.

that's just Sonya blade.

Ohhhhh that arc kick

 

[Marlow]

It's the fact that the design goals of MK11 line up with the same expressed design goals of every other modern fighter coming out

Why are those goals necessarily bad?

The goal is to make a game that has an easy access point to attract new players and casuals, yet still offers depth for competitive play. I think MK11 fits that bill.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Its not about whether or not MK has always been casual. It's the fact that the design goals of MK11 line up with the same expressed design goals of every other modern fighter coming out. A point you have failed to address 3 times now.

I addressed it multiple times already. I'm sure they put flawless block in so that the casuals would have an easier time with story mode, right?

Like Joe Blow goes to Best Buy to get his copy, sits down to play story mode, and he's like "Dude I'm so excited to play story mode! Also gonna hit the lab and see if Kronika's 221u3 has a gap before the last hit I think I may be able to flawless block u2 punish that before the dinosaur comes out".

Or like, when they made MK1, they were like "We need some advanced mechanics, inputs and movements.. Let's have down+punch be a highly effective strategy so that Tokido will play our game".

 

[Kiss the Missile]

You don't see crazy SF/anime style inputs

d,b,f is more annoying than any SF input

 

[CrimsonShadow]

d,b,f is more annoying than any SF input

Which is why you won't find it in the original Mortal Kombat game. And that was the point.

P.S. And if we're being accurate, that's not actually true. There are SF games that require you to double-shoryuken motion, standing buffered 720, etc.

 

[Courante]

I addressed it multiple times already. I'm sure they put flawless block in so that the casuals would have an easier time with story mode, right?

Like Joe Blow goes to Best Buy to get his copy, sits down to play story mode, and he's like "Dude I'm so excited to play story mode! Also gonna hit the lab and see if Kronika's 221u3 has a gap before the last hit I think I may be able to flawless block u2 punish that before the dinosaur comes out".

Or like, when they made MK1, they were like "We need some advanced mechanics, inputs and movements.. Let's have down+punch be a highly effective strategy so that Tokido will play our game".

Bro you keep failing to compare the design goals of MK11 with the design goals of the other fucking 5 games I've listed.

Flawless block alone does not offset half a dozen other negative changes they made to the game that you still haven't addressed. You are getting worse.

Stop gassing up flawless block as if it somehow proved MK11 wasnt dumbed down overall. I'm talking multiple fighting games (big picture) here too. You are missing the forest.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Bro you keep failing to compare the design goals of MK11 with the design goals of the other fucking 5 games I've listed.

Flawless block alone does not offset half a dozen other negative changes they made to the game that you still haven't addressed. You are getting worse.

Shoutout to all those 10 year-olds wavedashing, using FB-cancel pressure and jailing pokes to get to end of the story mode because NRS clearly set those mechanics up for them. I'm sure the new wakeup changes will help them meaty more effectively in their attempt to reach Johnny Cage's ending.

There, I didn't mention flawless block. You happy?

 

[Courante]

Shoutout to all those 10 year-olds wavedashing, using FB-cancel pressure and jailing pokes to get to end of the story mode because NRS clearly set those mechanics up for them. I'm sure the new wakeup changes will help them meaty more effectively in their attempt to reach Johnny Cage's ending.

There, I didn't mention flawless block. You happy?

So you admit you cant address any of the larger points made and have settled for being asinine. Ok. I'm done for now.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

So you admit you cant address any of the larger points made and have settled for being asinine. Ok. I'm done for now.

Hmm.. You mean the gems of your post, like this one?

i. Smaller Rosters

It's true. I did forget to mention that you were right here. 37 characters is not nearly enough -- we need to go back to the old days, when MK had tons more, like the expansive.. 12 character roster of MK2

 

[Marlow]

MK11 has been really successful, both casually in terms of sales and competitively. Not really sure how E-Sports is "killing" fighting games. I get that some people preferred older games like MK9 or MKX, but that's nothing new. Pretty much any time a new title comes out in a Fighting Game franchise there's a small chunk of the "core" that complains about the new game and prefers the old and makes doom prophesies about where things are going.

 

[Marlow]

iv. Bare Minimum features (ie paying 60/80/100 for online ranked and training mode lmao)

This one I'm confused on. MK11 had a huge story mode, Krypt, and towers, in addition to both an online ranked and casual mode, in depth tutorial, and practice mode.

 

[Arqwart]

automatic meter Regen, defensive bar "cooldowns," recharging fatal blow, removal of wakeups, breakaway were not implemented to make the game more hardcore.

Meter regen was to balance out super safe pressure and crazy zoning characters' meter building with the rest of the cast that can't do that. No more MK9 Kabal or MKX Tanya horseshit where they've got meter for days just from playing their character while the opponent starves. Not so much a change to accessibility as it was a baseline balancing tool.

Defensive bar cooldowns as in breakaway? Gunna need more detail here on what your concern is.

Recharging Fatal Blow is scrubby, yes.

Wakeups weren't removed, they were changed. The core issue here was that some characters in MK9/X had the most insane wakeups possible while others basically had to give up doing anything on wakeup when knocked down (D'Vorah and Quan for examples). Now the universal system grants everyone a safe, "get off me" wakeup and a risky pop-up. Again, not so much a change to accessibility as it was a baseline balancing tool.

Breakaway, imo, is dumb and makes no sense over Breakers in the context of MK11. However, I don't see them as making the game more "accessible." They're just different. I'd honestly argue they're LESS accessible than Breakers as they can only be used on pop-ups, have variable timings based on the height of each pop-up, can get blown up by armor breaks now, can be read by the opponent to cash out with an uppercut which is a safe option overall as it doesn't sacrifice their oki and sacrifices minimal damage usually, and leave you on the ground with no defensive meter waiting to be pressured. Meanwhile, Breakers completely reset neutral and ended the combo flat out.

 

[Wrenchfarm]

Fuck these Kombat Packs and Season Passes. In my day, if you wanted 3 new characters and a few small tweaks to the frame data, you bought another $70 game like GOD INTENDED.

Man has strayed from the light. It's time to embrace Turbo-Championship-Tradition.

(this is such a cranky BS thread)

 

[Baconlord]

If every change was meant to make the game easier then why did they replace armored moves with flawless block?

 

[Onryoki]

Why is it that you can draw a direct line between a a fighitng series becoming:

A) More Competetive
B) More Mainstream

and the game also being

a) dumbed down mechanically (more "accessible")
b) less exciting / slower

We had/are having this discussion with

1. Street Fighter
2. MK
3. Guilty Gear
4. Dead or Alive
5. Marvel vs Capcom
6. Soul Calibur 6 (dead fucking game lmao)

All of these games are clearly trying to appeal to the widest market possible and shifting away from core players.

Popped into a livestream and apparently people take any critique of MK11 personally to the point of becoming visibily frustrated that the discussion is even being had.

"If you liked X you had no neutral"
"9 was jank shit we've come a long way"
"If you don't like MK11 then X was your first game"

Like holy shit look around you. You cannot deny that there has been and will continue to be a trend with newly released fighitng games that seek to radically redesign themselves in order to appeal to people who don't fucking like fighting games. And for what? Sales and ESPORTS $? Imagine flushing an entire genre down the toilet for ESPORTS appeal.

Fighting games are shipping with:

i. Smaller Rosters
ii. Pre-Release on disc DLC
iii. Core Characters missing to be on said DLC
iv. Bare Minimum features (ie paying 60/80/100 for online ranked and training mode lmao)
v. slower nuetral based approach but also gimping or removing moves from characters to make it more balanced
vi. ESPORTS TM (C) $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
vii. fifty fucking season passes etc.
viii. dumbass cross promos

MVCI:

• looked like trash
• trash roster
• simple inputs
• MCU IP for normie $$$$$
• E fucking SPORTS baby

game flopped

SFV:

• trash launch roster
• eCAPCOM PRO SPORTS TOUR
• no fucking story mode or arcade mode or any fun additional shit that used to be there when fighitng games were still videogames and devs wanted to put cool content in
• NERFED EVERY CHARACTER AFTER BETA
• less creativity / balanced / less moves
• 65 million DLC packs
• CRUSH COUNTER so normies know when they got a counter hit

game was dog at launch but got better once devs started to add complex characters and deepened mechanics over time. 8/10 game now though

Mortal Kombat 11

• variations are back and worse than ever (wtf was going on at launch lmao)
• grindy FOMO chain yourself to your console SP content
• launch roster was dog (all your favorites are dead LUL)
• NEUTRAL IS FINALLY HERE !
• but say goodbye to staple moves, movement, execution, meter management, high octane mixups, setplay, combos, and creativity
• custom variations but with objectively trash moves that never seem to get buffed
• Breakaway
• Wakeups were hard so we got rid of them for a universal hold your hand baby's first wakeup system
• KrUshINg BlOW so normies know when they got a counter hit

- Strike throw strike throw strike throw strike throw HOLY SHIT HE DIDNT FINISH HIS STRING OMG THE MINDGAMES OMG NICE THROW TECH

• E S P O R T S
• Rounda Rousey

DOA5

• dumb downed gameplay
• tiny launch roster with core characters missing or on-disc DLC
• fanservice bad we need the esports audience
• release with no fucking content
• no lobbies for online play
• fanservice is good actually please play dress up with your waifus (600000000 DLC PACKS) we need money

game is literally dead already

GUILTY GEAR -S T R I V E-

• dumbed down for people who never liked the series enough to learn
• less moves per character
• C O U N T E R
• nerfed movement and setplay
• THE CORNER FUCKING BREAKS SO BABIES DON'T HALF TO LEARN DEFENSE KEKW
• tiny as fuck launch roster with less than 16 characters confirmed at launch L M A O
• E
• S
• P
• O
• R
• T
• S
• 100% gauranteed

Granblue Fantasy

• ez inputs and cooldown system for RPG players I guess and mobile
• 0 fucking meaningful content
• 11 FUCKING CHARACTERS AT LAUNCH

Not a single lie detected.

That’s dead or alive 6, not dead or alive 5. Dead or alive 5 was actually the best dead or alive game out there. Don’t mistake it for the worst dead or alive game out there (DOA6).