General/Other - Erron Black Erron Black General Discussion Thread

[Thanilla Ice]

Im done

lemme correct that myself I was in a rush, Marksman is about making the opponent respect 21122

 

[Thanilla Ice]

So after reading the last two pages...

1. Marksman has the best oki
2. 21122xxsandtrap works
3. Marksman has better oki because of pressure after 21122

Common Thanilla, really? This is nuts haha >.>

Wtf. When did I say 21122xxsandtrap worked?

 

[21122]

Wtf. When did I say 21122xxsandtrap worked?

My apologize

 

[Thanilla Ice]

Marksman dosen't have outlaws oki and armored reversal. And gunslinger zones much better than marksman. So if it is -20? Its still a reversal , thats like saying laos ex spin is terrible because its -

Keep Lao out of this. You can't compare a 7 frame reversal with an 18 frame reversal

 

[Thanilla Ice]

(marksman)
21122xxdb2 can't be poked out of. It will only trade with 6 frame pokes (which is not smart considering gun smack is 8% and pokes are 2%)

 

[NQuad1Zero]

you could always low profile the first hit of 21122... and only 21122EXSG and B32EXSG is unarmourable (from the useful strings... I think...)
Also the moment people see gunswing (which has like 29 frames startup or something i dont recall) they can just poke or armour if they have either.
And for that strategy of "making your opponent respect 21122", what do you do if your opponent starts mixing up deliberately releasing block on the 5th hit of 21122? on midscreen EXSG and gunswing will whiff (even in the corner I think gunswing whiffs, EXSG doesnt though), and the only punish you can really get on that if you chose to guncancel is to release the bullet.
And after Gunswing you're -1, your pressure ends. GC is armourable the moment they see it (if they've been buffering Armour) and EXSG is armourable afterwards even if EB uses 11 (an 8 frame move). And if you are gonna 21122 again (which again, apparently youre makng your opponent respect), they can lowprofile poke you and you have to respect them again.

 

[NQuad1Zero]

Also about your argument for Marksman being the better variation, as much as I want to say it's true (since I main Marksman), Im not so sure it is. Gunslinger has impressive zoning (Marksman seems pretty stark with a -240 mid projectile on whiff and +7 on hit, and unload being near useless unless special cancelled after a string for an oki, where caltrops is usually a better option anyways) and armour-blowing, and can REALLY EASILY hitconfirm using SOS (which also doesnt risk messing up a Guncancel)

And you seem to underestimate how powerful an unsafe reversal is. You notice how EB has a decent amount of holes in his strings and GC/Gunswing special cancels right? well if you were Marksman you actually can't really abuse this cuz your best reversal is Commandgrab/EXslide, both of which lead to a neutral reset SLIGHTLY in your favour. In Outlaw, not only do you have a very good NJP, that reversal will be able to make high pressure opponents second guess themselves before they disrespect you with their blockstrings. They never really have to second-guess you when youre marksman (unless theyre on superlow HP) because they can always cop a 13-16% reversal (Sandtrap or Slide) at the cost of your bar and some chip damage done on you.

 

[lil freshie11]

you could always low profile the first hit of 21122... and only 21122EXSG and B32EXSG is unarmourable (from the useful strings... I think...)
Also the moment people see gunswing (which has like 29 frames startup or something i dont recall) they can just poke or armour if they have either.
And for that strategy of "making your opponent respect 21122", what do you do if your opponent starts mixing up deliberately releasing block on the 5th hit of 21122? on midscreen EXSG and gunswing will whiff (even in the corner I think gunswing whiffs, EXSG doesnt though), and the only punish you can really get on that if you chose to guncancel is to release the bullet.
And after Gunswing you're -1, your pressure ends. GC is armourable the moment they see it (if they've been buffering Armour) and EXSG is armourable afterwards even if EB uses 11 (an 8 frame move). And if you are gonna 21122 again (which again, apparently youre makng your opponent respect), they can lowprofile poke you and you have to respect them again.

you could always low profile the first hit of 21122... and only 21122EXSG and B32EXSG is unarmourable (from the useful strings... I think...)
Also the moment people see gunswing (which has like 29 frames startup or something i dont recall) they can just poke or armour if they have either.
And for that strategy of "making your opponent respect 21122", what do you do if your opponent starts mixing up deliberately releasing block on the 5th hit of 21122? on midscreen EXSG and gunswing will whiff (even in the corner I think gunswing whiffs, EXSG doesnt though), and the only punish you can really get on that if you chose to guncancel is to release the bullet.
And after Gunswing you're -1, your pressure ends. GC is armourable the moment they see it (if they've been buffering Armour) and EXSG is armourable afterwards even if EB uses 11 (an 8 frame move). And if you are gonna 21122 again (which again, apparently youre makng your opponent respect), they can lowprofile poke you and you have to respect them again.

As there are plenty of ways to get out of this pressure, there are ways to counter those escape attempts, or predicting an unsafe armor and blocking. This is just how pressure works, a game of conditioning and predicting. Personally I use exsg till they respect and not rifle swing for your stated reasons. What I think thanilla ice is trying to get across however, is that marksman has more mixups/options to continue his pressure after a blocked 21122 string. I think all of his variations are close enough to even, with respect to particular matchups where it doesnt really matter which one is the "best", and im just gonna continue playing marksman cuz hes fucking sick.

 

[Thanilla Ice]

As there are plenty of ways to get out of this pressure, there are ways to counter those escape attempts, or predicting an unsafe armor and blocking. This is just how pressure works, a game of conditioning and predicting. Personally I use exsg till they respect and not rifle swing for your stated reasons. What I think thanilla ice is trying to get across however, is that marksman has more mixups/options to continue his pressure after a blocked 21122 string. I think all of his variations are close enough to even, with respect to particular matchups where it doesnt really matter which one is the "best", and im just gonna continue playing marksman cuz hes fucking sick.

Yea, what he said

 

[NQuad1Zero]

As there are plenty of ways to get out of this pressure, there are ways to counter those escape attempts, or predicting an unsafe armor and blocking. This is just how pressure works, a game of conditioning and predicting. Personally I use exsg till they respect and not rifle swing for your stated reasons. What I think thanilla ice is trying to get across however, is that marksman has more mixups/options to continue his pressure after a blocked 21122 string. I think all of his variations are close enough to even, with respect to particular matchups where it doesnt really matter which one is the "best", and im just gonna continue playing marksman cuz hes fucking sick.

And I was basically trying to make the point that 21122 special cancel pressure isn't as good as Thanilla was making it to be. I used to share the same opinion as Thanilla until I realised you can still armour interupt after EXSG (cuz EB doesnt have a frame 7 move), AND (I didn't mention this) after blocking EXSG, you can use a frame 6-7 poke against EB's low starter, a frame 6-9poke against EB's overhead starter and neutral crouch 21122

And the fact that outlaw gains a reversal "launcher" and gunslinger is surprisingly safe, convertable and good zoning (which most people, and even myself after some experimenting, believe are better than Guncancels and Gunswing)

 

[ienjoywinning]

member: 37397"]Keep Lao out of this. You can't compare a 7 frame reversal with an 18 frame reversal[/QUOTE] my point is that if you have an armroed reversal you can make them reepect you on knockdown , if they dont you get a free 28+ into oki. Also they would think twice about doing strings with gaps.

 

[wsj515]

Jeez I don't check these forums for a month and all of a sudden 21122xxdb2 vs 21122xxGC is conditioning?? There are so many holes in your argument Thanilla, so many of which that are blatantly in the frame data that I'm too exasperated to go into.

 

[carrion4worm]

theory and what ifs abound...and please, for the last time...Erron is oki and corner game. not a "cancel character" like liu or johnny. It's a nice addition to a slightly weaker variation, but he has plenty of other tools. every variation has 11, 21122, tick throws, and caltrops to stop the run ins. That's how you win with Erron.

 

[21122]

I was watching ESL second season and I noticed SonicFox always used 112 21122 for his mid screen combo. Looks like it takes them right to the corner and does around 26-27% damage. What do you guys think? Worth it over the stab? (Outlaw variation)

@SonicFox5000
@xGunShow
@wsj515
@HeroesNZ
@Farmer
@Groove Heaven
@Everyone else who sees this as well haha.

 

[thlityoursloat]

I do 112 21122 all the time, best corner carry combo.

 

[The Farmer]

I was watching ESL second season and I noticed SonicFox always used 112 21122 for his mid screen combo. Looks like it takes them right to the corner and does around 26-27% damage. What do you guys think? Worth it over the stab? (Outlaw variation)

@SonicFox5000
@xGunShow
@wsj515
@HeroesNZ
@Farmer
@Groove Heaven
@Everyone else who sees this as well haha.

I'm going to go back and catch his match. Any specific match/opponent this was against?

 

[Sage Leviathan]

I'm just going to enter this thread hastily as my exit to say that the Erron Black forums have turned to this brackish, tar color of a cancer that should be wiped clean like a janitor with a John Locke fetish.

The grammar/syntax of some of these posts which, by the way, describe a meta about as flexible as an errant feculence, can only be the result of grinding "the good kush" and pretending that capital letters don't start sentences.

I'm an Erron Black main, and until I see that this sub-forum is capable of hygiene control, I willingly exclude my input.

Good day.

 

[lil freshie11]

I'm just going to enter this thread hastily as my exit to say that the Erron Black forums have turned to this brackish, tar color of a cancer that should be wiped clean like a janitor with a John Locke fetish.

The grammar/syntax of some of these posts which, by the way, describe a meta about as flexible as an errant feculence, can only be the result of grinding "the good kush" and pretending that capital letters don't start sentences.

I'm an Erron Black main, and until I see that this sub-forum is capable of hygiene control, I willingly exclude my input.

Good day.

im jst thnkful our grammer fuhrer has taken the time to acknlwdge our existnce nd i hope 1 day ur nose will fall from its upwrd point/

 

[6ixty9]

Hey guys - i dont want to detract too much from your conversations here. I've been waiting for it to die down and now seems like an appropriate time to ask my questions.

With ESL season 2 under way it has sparked my interest in the game again and i feel like trying someone new.

Which variation of EB - outlaw or gunslinger (i cant gun cancel so there goes MM) would you guys recommend?

Im thinking outlaw seems the more appealing / beginner friendly.

Have you guys got a couple of basic combos you can share? Not sure how up to date the combo threads are. Not looking for anything flashy - would rather consistancy and easy inputs over 2% more damage etc.

Thanks for your help team

 

[thlityoursloat]

Hey guys - i dont want to detract too much from your conversations here. I've been waiting for it to die down and now seems like an appropriate time to ask my questions.

With ESL season 2 under way it has sparked my interest in the game again and i feel like trying someone new.

Which variation of EB - outlaw or gunslinger (i cant gun cancel so there goes MM) would you guys recommend?

Im thinking outlaw seems the more appealing / beginner friendly.

Have you guys got a couple of basic combos you can share? Not sure how up to date the combo threads are. Not looking for anything flashy - would rather consistancy and easy inputs over 2% more damage etc.

Thanks for your help team

Midscreen my usual BnB is starter EX SG B2 21122 sandtrap, slide. In the corner it's usually starter EX SG, Njp, ji4 21122 sandtrap.

 

[21122]

Hey guys - i dont want to detract too much from your conversations here. I've been waiting for it to die down and now seems like an appropriate time to ask my questions.

With ESL season 2 under way it has sparked my interest in the game again and i feel like trying someone new.

Which variation of EB - outlaw or gunslinger (i cant gun cancel so there goes MM) would you guys recommend?

Im thinking outlaw seems the more appealing / beginner friendly.

Have you guys got a couple of basic combos you can share? Not sure how up to date the combo threads are. Not looking for anything flashy - would rather consistancy and easy inputs over 2% more damage etc.

Thanks for your help team

Mid Screen

B33 Stab
B2 21122 slide

Corner
B33 stab
F24 caltrops
21122 sand trap if it will kill

 

[21122]

I'm going to go back and catch his match. Any specific match/opponent this was against?

Can't remember.

 

[Bucketfeet]

So, will we see a new erron costume this week???

 

[21122]

So, will we see a new erron costume this week???

Sure hope so. The trench coat one in concept art looked badass.

 

[The Farmer]

Dear God if there is a duster skin I may have to start playing again.