General/Other - Erron Black Erron Black General Discussion Thread

[wsj515]

I honestly believe it is Gunslinger=Marksman>Outlaw, with gunslinger and marksman being better in different match ups. Can someone please explain to me why they think otherwise? I can't see how an armored launcher makes outlaw a better variation than marksman, where marksman has safe mixups, better zoning tools, and better rushdown, especially within 21122 where gun cancels and rifleswing add so much more to the mind game. Its only drawback is its stamina dependency, which even then isn't a big deal as long as you manage your stamina and use stamina-less bnbs when you have to.

I've always thought the talk that outlaw is better than marksman is very much rooted in the fact that marksman has an execution barrier, but no one likes to admit it.

 

[xGunShow]

I honestly believe it is Gunslinger=Marksman>Outlaw, with gunslinger and marksman being better in different match ups. Can someone please explain to me why they think otherwise? I can't see how an armored launcher makes outlaw a better variation than marksman, where marksman has safe mixups, better zoning tools, and better rushdown, especially within 21122 where gun cancels and rifleswing add so much more to the mind game. Its only drawback is its stamina dependency, which even then isn't a big deal as long as you manage your stamina and use stamina-less bnbs when you have to.

I've always thought the talk that outlaw is better than marksman is very much rooted in the fact that marksman has an execution barrier, but no one likes to admit it.

I look at it this way:

Gunslinger: Great Zoning, Rapid Meter Building / Less Meter Dependent, Great Meaty Options and Chip Damage, Able to stuff Armored attacks w/ SOS2
Outlaw: Best NJP*, Armored Launcher***, Great OKI - Knockdown Options (Stab), Solid Damage
Marksman: Best Damage, Safe Strings w/ Gun Cancels, Anti-Zoning Options

Of course, all 3 Variations are very good and viable but I think the best variation is a toss-up between Outlaw and Gunslinger (MU-Dependent) judging by the tools each have compared to Marksman. Don't get me wrong, Marksman is great but the amount of tools that Gunslinger and Outlaw have slightly out-weigh it IMO.

If I had to rate them out of 10, it would be:

Outlaw: 9/10
Gunslinger: 8.5/10
Marksman: 8/10

*Of course, this is subject to change considering Gunslinger is still pretty new*
- These are just my initial thoughts right now

 

[wsj515]

I look at it this way:

Gunslinger: Great Zoning, Rapid Meter Building / Less Meter Dependent, Great Meaty Options and Chip Damage, Able to stuff Armored attacks w/ SOS2
Outlaw: Best NJP*, Armored Launcher***, Great OKI - Knockdown Options (Stab), Solid Damage
Marksman: Best Damage, Safe Strings w/ Gun Cancels, Anti-Zoning Options

Of course, all 3 Variations are very good and viable but I think the best variation is a toss-up between Outlaw and Gunslinger (MU-Dependent) judging by the tools each have compared to Marksman. Don't get me wrong, Marksman is great but the amount of tools that Gunslinger and Outlaw have slightly out-weigh it IMO.

If I had to rate them out of 10, it would be:

Outlaw: 9/10
Gunslinger: 8.5/10
Marksman: 8/10

*Of course, this is subject to change considering Gunslinger is still pretty new*
- These are just my initial thoughts right now

Fair enough, I did forget about outlaw's NJP. I just feel outlaw's main positives - the njp, armor, and oki (though I think all 3 variations have pretty solid oki so its hard for me to call this an outlaw exclusive positive) - just aren't a strong as gun cancel rush down and additional anti-zoning tools. As outlaw, unless you have meter, you only have one shot to land a mixup or you get full combo punished, where as with marksman you can stay safe, bait out armor and punish, hit confirm into combo, etc. His oki seems good enough without tark stab to get right back in there. To me marksman just plays much more to EB's strengths as a character than outlaw.

 

[Bucketfeet]

Fair enough, I did forget about outlaw's NJP. I just feel outlaw's main positives - the njp, armor, and oki (though I think all 3 variations have pretty solid oki so its hard for me to call this an outlaw exclusive positive) - just aren't a strong as gun cancel rush down and additional anti-zoning tools. As outlaw, unless you have meter, you only have one shot to land a mixup or you get full combo punished, where as with marksman you can stay safe, bait out armor and punish, hit confirm into combo, etc. His oki seems good enough without tark stab to get right back in there. To me marksman just plays much more to EB's strengths as a character than outlaw.

As much as I love marksman. The ex wake up into full combo is what makes outlaw the better variation. The njp is a huge bonus.

Marksman has huge trouble against pressure characters like jax, Johnny, cassie because he doesn't have a good wakeup tool. Ex slide is all he has which isn't enough of a threat for the opponent to respect you on wakeup and they continue pressure.

Also you say that gun cancels are safe but in fact they are not. It creates a gap where ppl can armor out or jump out of or sometime poke you out of if it's fast enough.

Don't get me wrong. Marksman is still my favorite and main variation but I find I need to switch to outlaw in certain situations.

 

[lil freshie11]

As much as I love marksman. The ex wake up into full combo is what makes outlaw the better variation. The njp is a huge bonus.

Marksman has huge trouble against pressure characters like jax, Johnny, cassie because he doesn't have a good wakeup tool. Ex slide is all he has which isn't enough of a threat for the opponent to respect you on wakeup and they continue pressure.

Also you say that gun cancels are safe but in fact they are not. It creates a gap where ppl can armor out or jump out of or sometime poke you out of if it's fast enough.

Don't get me wrong. Marksman is still my favorite and main variation but I find I need to switch to outlaw in certain situations.

I use ex or normal sand tackle on wakeup when they are respecting slide.

armored launchers are such a big asset in this game because so many of the characters have holes in their strings to interrupt with a full combo

 

[Bucketfeet]

I use ex or normal sand tackle on wakeup when they are respecting slide.

armored launchers are such a big asset in this game because so many of the characters have holes in their strings to interrupt with a full combo

It's weird my tackle doesn't come out on wake up most of the time.... I can do it 99% time off of a string but not on wake up. I should pradtice the timing on that.

 

[wsj515]

As much as I love marksman. The ex wake up into full combo is what makes outlaw the better variation. The njp is a huge bonus.

Marksman has huge trouble against pressure characters like jax, Johnny, cassie because he doesn't have a good wakeup tool. Ex slide is all he has which isn't enough of a threat for the opponent to respect you on wakeup and they continue pressure.

Also you say that gun cancels are safe but in fact they are not. It creates a gap where ppl can armor out or jump out of or sometime poke you out of if it's fast enough.

Don't get me wrong. Marksman is still my favorite and main variation but I find I need to switch to outlaw in certain situations.

ex slide and ex tackle are more than enough for wake ups. ex slide is what, 16% into oki? That's nothing to scoff at. Gun cancels are safe, you have to hit confirm and cancel into block, not just continue into 21122, which is where baiting out armor comes into play. This is what I'm talking about, I feel like most people either still don't properly know how to use gun cancels, or find using them properly too difficult. People place way too much value in armored sand toss because its easy and nets a lot of damage, but people talk about it as if its on par with cassia's ex flip, when in reality it can be abused on wakeup relatively safely by doing lots of different things.

 

[cambros22]

I found something funny against Ferra/Torr.
When Erron Black trades Standing 1 with Ferra/Torrs B1, F/T can continue a combo off of the trade.

 

[Bucketfeet]

ex slide and ex tackle are more than enough for wake ups. ex slide is what, 16% into oki? That's nothing to scoff at. Gun cancels are safe, you have to hit confirm and cancel into block, not just continue into 21122, which is where baiting out armor comes into play. This is what I'm talking about, I feel like most people either still don't properly know how to use gun cancels, or find using them properly too difficult. People place way too much value in armored sand toss because its easy and nets a lot of damage, but people talk about it as if its on par with cassia's ex flip, when in reality it can be abused on wakeup relatively safely by doing lots of different things.

Try is against sub zero in practice mode and put reversal mode on. I belive he'll armor through the gun cancels.

 

[cambros22]

Try is against sub zero in practice mode and put reversal mode on. I belive he'll armor through the gun cancels.

Bro I can rifle cancel against his slide with no problem. your rifle cancels must be too slow. The only string I cant cancel into block on is 11b3

 

[carrion4worm]

Fair enough, I did forget about outlaw's NJP. I just feel outlaw's main positives - the njp, armor, and oki (though I think all 3 variations have pretty solid oki so its hard for me to call this an outlaw exclusive positive) - just aren't a strong as gun cancel rush down and additional anti-zoning tools. As outlaw, unless you have meter, you only have one shot to land a mixup or you get full combo punished, where as with marksman you can stay safe, bait out armor and punish, hit confirm into combo, etc. His oki seems good enough without tark stab to get right back in there. To me marksman just plays much more to EB's strengths as a character than outlaw.

hey, play who you love..we're blessed with 3 really solid variations! Time has shown, however, that Outlaw is the most effective overall. NJPs in this game are huge, sword-specific, high damage strings (that many players neglect), hit-confirmable "freeze" with armor, less stamina dependence are all in Outlaw's favor...The reason I place Marksman last is specials. When the best thing about one of the two variation specific specials is that it can be cancelled at the cost of stamina...well, I guess you get my drift...perhaps if barrage combed better?

Anyway, just my opinion (since you asked) and @xGunShow seems to agree as well. Gunslinger is great now, I love his options. Time will tell, but right now Erron mains are really lucky to have three great variations, so let's master them all while everyone else cries for buffs/ nerfs for their characters.

BTW: Outlaw stealth buff: Double Poke (b2,1,1) no longer whiffs in the corner, perfectly cancels into Tarkatan Stab after 2nd or 3rd hit, depending on gravity. Allows for big damage, this used to miss pre-patch.

 

[Bucketfeet]

Bro I can rifle cancel against his slide with no problem. your rifle cancels must be too slow. The only string I cant cancel into block on is 11b3

Which starter string do you use? I'll try it tmr after work. Coz if it does work that would be awesome.

I'm doing f13 gc into either b32 or 21122 or f13 again.

Thx!

 

[wsj515]

hey, play who you love..we're blessed with 3 really solid variations! Time has shown, however, that Outlaw is the most effective overall. NJPs in this game are huge, sword-specific, high damage strings (that many players neglect), hit-confirmable "freeze" with armor, less stamina dependence are all in Outlaw's favor...The reason I place Marksman last is specials. When the best thing about one of the two variation specific specials is that it can be cancelled at the cost of stamina...well, I guess you get my drift...perhaps if barrage combed better?

Anyway, just my opinion (since you asked) and @xGunShow seems to agree as well. Gunslinger is great now, I love his options. Time will tell, but right now Erron mains are really lucky to have three great variations, so let's master them all while everyone else cries for buffs/ nerfs for their characters.

BTW: Outlaw stealth buff: Double Poke (b2,1,1) no longer whiffs in the corner, perfectly cancels into Tarkatan Stab after 2nd or 3rd hit, depending on gravity. Allows for big damage, this used to miss pre-patch.

The whole point of a general discussion is to, well, discuss, and thats what I'm doing haha, not trying to put outlaw or its mains on blast. I seem to keep repeating myself however, that people keep saying his stamina dependency is an issue really isn't a problem at all as long as you manage it. The pros heavily outweigh the cons IMO, I really think marksman pressure with gun cancels is objectively better and I don't think it really misses the armored sand toss. Watch sonic fox play, he really doesn't use it that much, and the way people talk about it here almost implies that he's using it to start every combo. Same thing applies with his NJP.

 

[cambros22]

Which starter string do you use? I'll try it tmr after work. Coz if it does work that would be awesome.

I'm doing f13 gc into either b32 or 21122 or f13 again.

Thx!

how are you gonna make yourself safe after a rifle cancel if your not going to block. Gun cancels on hit can be linked into combos. On block, they are just special move cancels that leave you -2 through -4 I believe depending on the string. Someone can correct me if my frame data is off. Cancels take away the negative frames you would left at if you finished a string that was seriously negative like F12.

 

[21122]

Guys outlaws F21 into ex sand jails and F21 on block is +1. Was it always like this or am I just new to finding out haha.

Edit: F211 into ex sand also jails

See no use it no though

 

[Bucketfeet]

how are you gonna make yourself safe after a rifle cancel if your not going to block. Gun cancels on hit can be linked into combos. On block, they are just special move cancels that leave you -2 through -4 I believe depending on the string. Someone can correct me if my frame data is off. Cancels take away the negative frames you would left at if you finished a string that was seriously negative like F12.

Bro I can rifle cancel against his slide with no problem. your rifle cancels must be too slow. The only string I cant cancel into block on is 11b3

OK. I've been misunderstanding you this whole time SORRY. Yes I should learn to read, you clearly said cancel into BLOCK. My bad.... I thought you were continuing a string after the gun cancel and saying it was safe. I get it now, yes they are safe indeed on block.

Thanks for not biting off my head and calling me a scrub. Lol

 

[ConquaY]

Was there a stealth brutality patch this month? I just did the swing shot brutality online (which I haven't done in months due to the meter requirement) with no meter, then went to practice mode to check the requirements and they took away the 2 bars of meter requirement.

 

[CaptainCM]

Was there a stealth brutality patch this month? I just did the swing shot brutality online (which I haven't done in months due to the meter requirement) with no meter, then went to practice mode to check the requirements and they took away the 2 bars of meter requirement.

Yes, a lot of requirements for brutalities have been toned down.

 

[Redux]

Yes, a lot of requirements for brutalities have been toned down.

does gunslingers still need like 10 backdashes? I never unlocked that one.

 

[CaptainCM]

does gunslingers still need like 10 backdashes? I never unlocked that one.

It used to be 15, now it's 6 or something.

 

[ienjoywinning]

Wait since when did nrs rebuff errons b32u1 recovery back to 28 frames ? Njp is much easier to land now , it could be me or ?

 

[21122]

Really? :O

 

[HeroesNZ]

Feels the same to me

 

[Sage Leviathan]

X-ray finishes now pop the head seemingly every time.

 

[ienjoywinning]

Feels the same to me

hmmm i must be crazy then , but correct me if im wrong wasen't pre patch b32u1 ( before the nerf) had 28 recovery frames but they nerfed it down to 23 frames? Because now if you look at the frame data of b32u1 it says 28 frames again.