Breakthrough - Kung Lao [EO Beta Closed] Kung Lao Beta Changes Discussion

[THTB]

11f mid at +7 it's not a frame trap... and everything it's armorable

...When every move in the game is 6 frames or slower...yeah it is. A frame trap doesn't have to be airtight and jailing to be a frame trap.

 

[WiseM0nkey]

...When every move in the game is 6 frames or slower...yeah it is. A frame trap doesn't have to be airtight and jailing to be a frame trap.

i've already explained that i tend to consider both jailing and frame traps as one in mkx, as long as you got the armor mechanic

 

[THTB]

i've already explained that i tend to consider both jailing and frame traps as one in mkx, as long as you got the armor mechanic

Lol the armor mechanic is MK's way of adding in invincible reversals. Which is basically no different from any other 2D fighter. Jailing and frame traps are two completely different concepts that you are meshing together.

One you have to wait, the other you don't always have to.

 

[WiseM0nkey]

Lol the armor mechanic is MK's way of adding in invincible reversals. Which is basically no different from any other 2D fighter. Jailing and frame traps are two completely different concepts that you are meshing together.

One you have to wait, the other you don't always have to.

ok, got it.. thanks for the heads up.

 

[Desperdicio]

Anyhow, I am working on a Erron Black and Kano as an alternative. I do not believe the "new" Lao can beat either of them at the highest level.

Erron Black still has a lot of flaws that I hope are getting addressed in XL.

Yes, we're all crazy and overreacting.

I can only speak for myself but, I'm a old man and much older than most on this forum. I don't have nearly the time to invest and it takes my 10x as long to learn a character than most of you.

After playing with Lao for months, I finally "got it" and understood how he is to be played. Now, he's nerfed! It's over for me. I always knew his pressure was fake but all the nerfs do now is exacerbate this flaw.

I know the feeling, man. Getting good at this game feels like a terrible waste of time.

 

[Eddy Wang]

Difficulty justifies inbalance?

It doesn't justify universally scaling the damage of the entire character, not just tempest.

 

[21122]

You guys should be lucky they didnt make ex-hat -2 on hit

 

[Wigy]

It doesn't justify universally scaling the damage of the entire character, not just tempest.

Then why mention the 2 frame link

 

[DarkFire*]

Time to change your banner

I know lol it sucks

I'm pretty sure Tanya's getting it the worst

But that's why I got Karin over in SFV waiting for me in all seriousness tho with Kung Lao getting these changes its gonna be like learning a new character, when I just took the time to learn him not that long ago x( it's lame lmao

 

[Eddy Wang]

What are the buzz saw changes?

J2 nerfed
Less damage on your most reliable filler which was already hard to use anyway.

Then why mention the 2 frame link

i mention because it wasn't that easy to come by in first place, it also doesn't justify having scaling on a normal that his other two variations share.

We all know tempest does too much damage for a bar, the best way of reducing that should be adding damage protection on tools that are specific to tempest, this mean his hat spin, and ex spin considering he can spin twice in the same combo.

Tempest was the only variation where you got to choose if you want to play more of a neutral without submitting yourself much to guessing, just as Hellfire was and just as A-list was.

His other two variations are more of risking ex spin in between staggers which aren't that good to begin with due they being -4 to -5 most of the time, but the real problem in combination is that he has the slowest walkspeed in the game only being beat by ermac in this department, so you won't be having that stagger pressure game a character like Johnny cage or cassie or instance would have, you would have to jump and risk a dive kick, ex spin to avoid button pressing and so on, tempest set itself apart from the others in this particular case.
And lol at that previous post of someone showing dive kick as an example for whiff punishing, and a lot of risky choices such as his teleport.

whatever was written on that post is exactly the way i don't advice to play lao.

 

[Mykal NS]

Post all you can find about Lao in the beta here in this thread.


Ex orbiting hat is no longer +12 ( +7)

J2 is normalized

Dmg scaling on hat links into 44 (3 to 4% less)

Ex spin sucks you in on block

Scaling on 44 is not noticeable. B2 hat spin 44 b321 spin, j3d4 21 is 35% down from 36%, f23 hat spin , 44 b321 j3d4 21 is 37% meterless, down from 38%, Lao is still stupid good. Also, if they don't have meter, you can run up and do 11212 to jail after ex hat but it has to be just frame. D4 and f2 are still good, f2 catches backdash and they can't poke out. Just my two cents from testing. Cheers

 

[Shade667]

Its a fighting game. Youll all adapt.

 

[YOMI DJT]

Not as strong as he was before but still a good char period imo.

Also his j3 still seems pretty strong.

 

[The PantyChrist]

Another thing people aren't talking about is that once tempest does ex hat. He forfeits his armored move and overhead. He basically loses 5 frames to be at his weakest

 

[coolwhip]

Another thing people aren't talking about is that once tempest does ex hat. He forfeits his armored move and overhead. He basically loses 5 frames to be at his weakest

Armored moves are no big deal. You shouldn't want to armor when you're at +7 anyway (that means you're spending two bars). Plus I know it's a technicality but I don't think he loses his ex-teleport, not that anyone will be doing ex hat into ex teleport.

The real problem now is he's not getting a guaranteed d4, which ruins part of the mind game. I don't know how much this will affect him and I think it's silly to be jumping up and down during the beta without extensively testing things and part of me was kinda sick of tempest of I'm honest, but if I had to guess, I think it will no longer be a very strong variation.

 

[coolwhip]

J2 being nerfed is warranted but I worry how this affects hat-trick and buzz-saw, since this is a universal nerf and not just exclusive to tempest. Really hoping those variations get buffed.

 

[Invincible Salads]

Can anyone reconmend a good



Ok my friend i agree with you 100%. I understand the frustration as im a lao main and some nerds were talking about nerfing JP2 which i still dont think is a issue and the spin sucking you in.
I was hearing about these nerfs from about 2 months ago so looks like someone was having a cry about it and NRS decided to listen.
Jax option select is still in the game. Kitana has no gaps. and so on and so on.
While lao has to always take risk with the hat spin as it gives another gap to ex out of and now a +7 hat and there is still a gap doesnt seem like the right idea to be honest.
Where on this planet did someone decide to nerf a 2 frame link into 44 damage reduction? what idiot thought of this as there is 2 gaps in between that link? If it was a 6 frame mid with no gaps i understand but jesus christ it takes alot of timing and skill to pull it off.
This nerf is harsh imo and cannot see how the ex hat spin is useful.

jax has an option select?? i never remembered hearing about this.

 

[STRYKIE]

jax has an option select?? i never remembered hearing about this.

Jax's B2 doesn't cancel into anything on block. Even if you wanted to.

However B2 itself was nerfed to -10 so punishing it might be more doable for more characters.

 

[Invincible Salads]

Jax's B2 doesn't cancel into anything on block. Even if you wanted to.

However B2 itself was nerfed to -10 so punishing it might be more doable for more characters.

the delayed b2 is safe though still.

 

[The PantyChrist]

Armored moves are no big deal. You shouldn't want to armor when you're at +7 anyway (that means you're spending two bars). Plus I know it's a technicality but I don't think he loses his ex-teleport, not that anyone will be doing ex hat into ex teleport.

The real problem now is he's not getting a guaranteed d4, which ruins part of the mind game. I don't know how much this will affect him and I think it's silly to be jumping up and down during the beta without extensively testing things and part of me was kinda sick of tempest of I'm honest, but if I had to guess, I think it will no longer be a very strong variation.

true.
But I was just making a point that he can't even trade armor for armor if he wanted to. But I did forget that tempest ex spin doesn't chew through armor the way buzzsaw and ht do

 

[jokey77]

These changes are fine. Now all that I ask for, is to remove the armor of his ex-spin. I think Kung Lao will be well-balanced afterwards!

 

[Tweedy]

Armored moves are no big deal. You shouldn't want to armor when you're at +7 anyway (that means you're spending two bars). Plus I know it's a technicality but I don't think he loses his ex-teleport, not that anyone will be doing ex hat into ex teleport.

The real problem now is he's not getting a guaranteed d4, which ruins part of the mind game. I don't know how much this will affect him and I think it's silly to be jumping up and down during the beta without extensively testing things and part of me was kinda sick of tempest of I'm honest, but if I had to guess, I think it will no longer be a very strong variation.

Disagree. Checking people with D4 was cool. What makes this nerf so significant, is that now following up with his main strings, B321 and 11212, isn't really an option anymore. Even if someone pokes and eats D4 or F2, it's not that big of a deal since you have no hat on your head. Before they had to armor to beat B321, and 11212 jailed if done correctly. Now you can just check someone, while still risking getting armored.

 

[Carl]

These changes are fine. Now all that I ask for, is to remove the armor of his ex-spin. I think Kung Lao will be well-balanced afterwards!

Why remove the armor on his spin? what reason do you have to justifies this?

 

[XxDark_]

Why remove the armor on his spin? what reason do you have to justifies this?

I wouldn't even entertain that nonsense lol

 

[Tweedy]

These changes are fine. Now all that I ask for, is to remove the armor of his ex-spin. I think Kung Lao will be well-balanced afterwards!

Is this the whole Quan thing again, just in the shape of a blond chewing bubble gum?

Quan loses frames, still has 50/50s, vortex, pseudo unblockables, zoning.

Lao loses frames, that's his offense. He has nothing else besides pressure to open people up.

Now with this.

Cassie loses armor, her EX flipkick is still safe midscreen and somewhat difficult to punish in the corner. Can still use it to make 50/50s safe.

Lao loses armor, now there's no point in the move being EX, because it's 100% punishable and will get clowned on by long ranged jump moves, just like normal spin does.


Different characters, different moves, yeah.