General/Other - D'Vorah D'Vorah General Discussion Thread

[Blewdew]

Well actually after some testing it's rather easy to link. B1 is harder than f3 but I think the link after ex bug blast still depends on how far your opponent is away from you. F22,f3 are definitely easy to combo of midscreen now

 

[Second Saint]

Well actually after some testing it's rather easy to link. B1 is harder than f3 but I think the link after ex bug blast still depends on how far your opponent is away from you. F22,f3 are definitely easy to combo of midscreen now

It will always be easier to combo from a distance because of the extra travel frames of the projectile. As long as linking b1 is actually possible from all distances, which it literally wasn't before, I'm okay with it.

 

[TopTierHarley]

There are two hits of armor on ex spray. Did the Liu test

 

[Second Saint]

Ok, so day 1 impressions of the new Venomous D'vorah.

The armor move is definitely good, and the lack of armored launchers is essentially a buff to a character that relies a lot on staggers. It changes the whole risk/reward of a lot of what she does.

I'm missing the chip damage though, and not having it sort of throws the whole variation off to me. I always thought that the reason Venomous has next to no comboability is because she can always tack on an extra ~13% to any restand. Well that's not the case anymore, but she's still only able to get damage off of f34, highs, and unsafe f44. And if a character reliant on chip damage was a problem, why is Flame fist essentially unchanged? I just don't see having both the armor and the chip damage as too good.

Not only that, but it seems to me that b1 and f3 are quite fuzzy guardable. Probably not the worst case of this in the game, but it is definitely a weakness for a vortex character. Said vortex also being inherently weakened without f22's ability to apply dots.

In short, her offense is weaker and her defense is stronger.

 

[JORGIE]

With 9 frames of recovery and only being+3 on block with over 40 frames of startup, puddle is now almost useless outside of combos. Most of Swarm Queen's puddle setups are ass now but she's still very viable imo. I noticed with the f3 buff that if someone trades a normal with your f3, the hitstun will let you get a full combo which is nice. She's completely fair now(maybe a little worse than fair) but as long as I have f3 and b1 I promise you, people will still bitch about her.

 

[Blewdew]

B1, ex bug blast consistenly combos into 212 midscreen. You have to commit to it though but it's way easier than b1,ex bb,f11

 

[Blewdew]

112, ex bug blast,f11,krawler,f34,d1,f34,d,f44 ovi = 1 bar 37% punish midscreen. Corner possibly way more

 

[Second Saint]

What does everyone else end with for corner setups with Broodmother? Because I feel like 212~krawler is best, but from the limited BM footage I've seen, no one uses it.

You're around +5 on block depending on how high you hit 212, you get a hard to blockable if they fully delay wakeup, it's safe against armor moves except reptiles, and you can also use puddle instead if that's what you'd prefer.

 

[Blewdew]

What does everyone else end with for corner setups with Broodmother? Because I feel like 212~krawler is best, but from the limited BM footage I've seen, no one uses it.

You're around +5 on block depending on how high you hit 212, you get a hard to blockable if they fully delay wakeup, it's safe against armor moves except reptiles, and you can also use puddle instead if that's what you'd prefer.

Yes that's what I go for too all The time. There are more options too since bm's puddle is +12 on block. I don't feel like ex puddle is that good anymore since armor attacks are way less scary than before and on block it doesn't garantuee b3 anymore so it can't really do more than normal puddle. Krawler is The best Option though.

 

[Second Saint]

Yes that's what I go for too all The time. There are more options too since bm's puddle is +12 on block. I don't feel like ex puddle is that good anymore since armor attacks are way less scary than before and on block it doesn't garantuee b3 anymore so it can't really do more than normal puddle. Krawler is The best Option though.

What's the most damaging 212~krawler setup you've found from an ex df1 combo so far? I've been doing [starter] ex df1, 212, f44, d1, 212~krawler, which does 30% on f3/b1 and 35% from 112. If I land a raw f11, I use f11~krawler, f44, f44, d1, 212~krawler for 30%.

Haven't been bothering with ex df1, f11 links since I much prefer the consistency. Not much of a damage difference either due to all the scaling.

 

[Second Saint]

I've gotten krawler to roughly +13 (I jail f1 consistently, but haven't been able to jail f4) on block now by changing the gravity on those 212~krawler setups. Much more if they delay wakeup. Works with tech rolls. The meterless version off f34 still is only +5 or so, but that's still good.

I'm making a video on it, could be a few hours.

 

[Second Saint]

What's Brood Mother's optimal meterless corner carry combo off f11? Best I've found is f11~df3, f44, f44, rc f112~df3/db4 (29/32%). It's a lot easier if you run cancel the first f44 also, but if you do that you most likely don't have stamina to run up and pressure after.

Been watching D'vorah matches lately and people don't seem to know the optimal corner restand off f34 in Venomous. F34, d1, f34, 112~df1 restands for 33.44%. F34, d1, f34, d3, 112~db4 will net you 38% and change. I've talked about this to some people, but I don't see the point of going for f3~spray in the corner at all, unless you're in a matchup where the opponent can reversal punish you (Kung Lao, Cassie, Reptile, Kano, Mileena if you aren't spaced out, did I miss any?). Otherwise, the best option to punish if they have a 6f combo starter is a 2f punish window. I'll take that risk until my opponent proves they're up to the challenge of punishing it. That's practically Venomous' official motto. What's spray n' pray in latin? Et Orate Ramulus.

Also, I've been thinking f44 needs to be incorporated more into the Venomous game plan. In my opinion, one of V's biggest weaknesses is not being able to convert off f1. It's easily one of the best tools D'vorah has in general, but she gets an 18% restand off it in the corner at best. This lack of damage, compared to the other variations, on this one string is a huge issue. As a character that's really only good up close with long reaching mids, you'd think she could do some damage off whiff punishes, right?

And then there's f44: the unsafe, slower, launching powerhouse of a mid we're not using in the neutral. F44 can be hit confirmed into spray for quasi-safety. Its got decent range and 14f isn't particularly slow. And when it hits, you can get up to 37.25% midscreen or even as much as just shy of 49% in the corner meterless. F44, f34, d1, rc 112~db4 (37.25%) F44, d3 [x2], d1 [x4], 112~db4 (48.86% Hard af, seriously)

Being able to combo off f1 would be ideal, but unless and until Venomous is blessed in the sight of Paulo, I think we need to make f44 work in Venom as a whiff punisher.

@TopTierHarley
@Wazminator
@HoneyBee
@KillaGthug4Life
@Blewdew
@The D'vorah's I forgot

 

[Wazminator]

What's Brood Mother's optimal meterless corner carry combo off f11? Best I've found is f11~df3, f44, f44, rc f112~df3/db4 (29/32%). It's a lot easier if you run cancel the first f44 also, but if you do that you most likely don't have stamina to run up and pressure after.

Been watching D'vorah matches lately and people don't seem to know the optimal corner restand off f34 in Venomous. F34, d1, f34, 112~df1 restands for 33.44%. F34, d1, f34, d3, 112~db4 will net you 38% and change. I've talked about this to some people, but I don't see the point of going for f3~spray in the corner at all, unless you're in a matchup where the opponent can reversal punish you (Kung Lao, Cassie, Reptile, Kano, Mileena if you aren't spaced out, did I miss any?). Otherwise, the best option to punish if they have a 6f combo starter is a 2f punish window. I'll take that risk until my opponent proves they're up to the challenge of punishing it. That's practically Venomous' official motto. What's spray n' pray in latin? Et Orate Ramulus.

Also, I've been thinking f44 needs to be incorporated more into the Venomous game plan. In my opinion, one of V's biggest weaknesses is not being able to convert off f1. It's easily one of the best tools D'vorah has in general, but she gets an 18% restand off it in the corner at best. This lack of damage, compared to the other variations, on this one string is a huge issue. As a character that's really only good up close with long reaching mids, you'd think she could do some damage off whiff punishes, right?

And then there's f44: the unsafe, slower, launching powerhouse of a mid we're not using in the neutral. F44 can be hit confirmed into spray for quasi-safety. Its got decent range and 14f isn't particularly slow. And when it hits, you can get up to 37.25% midscreen or even as much as just shy of 49% in the corner meterless. F44, f34, d1, rc 112~db4 (37.25%) F44, d3 [x2], d1 [x4], 112~db4 (48.86% Hard af, seriously)

Being able to combo off f1 would be ideal, but unless and until Venomous is blessed in the sight of Paulo, I think we need to make f44 work in Venom as a whiff punisher.

@TopTierHarley
@Wazminator
@HoneyBee
@KillaGthug4Life
@Blewdew
@The D'vorah's I forgot

You can do f11-df3, 212-db1~d1-f112 krawler, its around 30% and carries them pretty far, ending in f44 db4/df3 works too but I prefer the krawler setup just because it puts you in a good spot compared to f44.

Optimal restand I found in the corner was F34, d1, f34, d1, f44 df1, iirc its like 36%

I agree with the use of f34 in the corner anddddd I'm not too sure how well f44 would work tbh but I'll try it out for a little to see how it goes.

Good post bruh

 

[Blewdew]

What's Brood Mother's optimal meterless corner carry combo off f11? Best I've found is f11~df3, f44, f44, rc f112~df3/db4 (29/32%). It's a lot easier if you run cancel the first f44 also, but if you do that you most likely don't have stamina to run up and pressure after.

Been watching D'vorah matches lately and people don't seem to know the optimal corner restand off f34 in Venomous. F34, d1, f34, 112~df1 restands for 33.44%. F34, d1, f34, d3, 112~db4 will net you 38% and change. I've talked about this to some people, but I don't see the point of going for f3~spray in the corner at all, unless you're in a matchup where the opponent can reversal punish you (Kung Lao, Cassie, Reptile, Kano, Mileena if you aren't spaced out, did I miss any?). Otherwise, the best option to punish if they have a 6f combo starter is a 2f punish window. I'll take that risk until my opponent proves they're up to the challenge of punishing it. That's practically Venomous' official motto. What's spray n' pray in latin? Et Orate Ramulus.

Also, I've been thinking f44 needs to be incorporated more into the Venomous game plan. In my opinion, one of V's biggest weaknesses is not being able to convert off f1. It's easily one of the best tools D'vorah has in general, but she gets an 18% restand off it in the corner at best. This lack of damage, compared to the other variations, on this one string is a huge issue. As a character that's really only good up close with long reaching mids, you'd think she could do some damage off whiff punishes, right?

And then there's f44: the unsafe, slower, launching powerhouse of a mid we're not using in the neutral. F44 can be hit confirmed into spray for quasi-safety. Its got decent range and 14f isn't particularly slow. And when it hits, you can get up to 37.25% midscreen or even as much as just shy of 49% in the corner meterless. F44, f34, d1, rc 112~db4 (37.25%) F44, d3 [x2], d1 [x4], 112~db4 (48.86% Hard af, seriously)

Being able to combo off f1 would be ideal, but unless and until Venomous is blessed in the sight of Paulo, I think we need to make f44 work in Venom as a whiff punisher.

@TopTierHarley
@Wazminator
@HoneyBee
@KillaGthug4Life
@Blewdew
@The D'vorah's I forgot

the combo you mentioned gives the best meterless damage into setup at least. the combo wazminator said gives slightly better corner carry though. you also do f11 bf3, f11 wgc,212, d1, f112 bf3 for a little bit more corner carry if you have the cancel down consistenly. if you're willing to use meter you cann do f11 bf3, 112 exdf1,f11 wgc,212,d1,f112 bf3 which is 33% into setup and you're right in the corner from the middle of the stage you don't have to run up anymore you can just go for the htb if you want to.

 

[Second Saint]

You can do f11-df3, 212-db1~d1-f112 krawler, its around 30% and carries them pretty far, ending in f44 db4/df3 works too but I prefer the krawler setup just because it puts you in a good spot compared to f44.

Optimal restand I found in the corner was F34, d1, f34, d1, f44 df1, iirc its like 36%

I agree with the use of f34 in the corner anddddd I'm not too sure how well f44 would work tbh but I'll try it out for a little to see how it goes.

Good post bruh

Well, I would say the combo you listed and the one I listed have almost the exact same setup, but mine does 2% more damage and only uses run once. F11~df3, 212 isn't going to hit naturally without a short run cancel, or at least I've never had it work. Having the ability to follow up afterwards with a run in f3 seems pretty important to the setup to me.

And I think you might've had venom stacks going when you tried that Venom combo, because it only does 32.31%. If that's the version you're most comfortable with, then it's a great option because consistency > everything, but optimal it is not.

I figured you did agree with the f34 stuff since I already said about the same thing to you on youtube. I've been enjoying your videos, btw. You've got a really solid Brood Mother. I know I can't play her that cleanly. Although, I die a little inside when people poke out of the gap in ex bug blast. Using a bar is one thing, but pokes? After there already was a gap and on a move that's supposed to be plus? Come on.

Hope you get some results with f44. I know it feels weird trying to switch for me.

 

[Second Saint]

Been doing some thinking on some things after playing out some, what I feel to be, bad matchups for Venomous D'vorah. This might be an outrageous statement, so I'm running it by everyone here.

Does Venom have the worst anti-zoning ability in the game? Puddle is not what it was, and it already was full combo punishable from fullscreen on a read. Now it gets you maybe a dash or a short run in on block, assuming you didn't get hit or knocked down doing it.

D'vorah's run speed is undeniably great, but her walk speed is atrocious. I want to say it's one of the worst in the game, but I don't have factual proof of what the worst walks are. Does anyone know of walk speed ranking? Either way, run has gotten less important in the new meta and walk speed more important. Against zoners that make you walk in, it can take a long, long time to waddle them to the corner.

What other anti-zoning options does Venomous have? F42 is too slow to help in most cases. X-ray is good, but it costs 3 bars. Not exactly something you can use all the time.

Now, I'm perfectly fine with a character having weaknesses. That's important. But I often feel like I legitimately have the least possible options against a character with good zoning. Your Quans, Cyber Kanos, Piercing Mileenas, etc. No teleport, advancing armor, projectile parry, dive kick, and I don't think she's great at getting in honestly.

Aren't weaknesses supposed to be balanced by strengths? Venomous is...okay up close. Kind of like a less damaging version of Thunder God with better mids, no corner carry, and a gimmicky version of safety. Why does this variation have to feel so helpless past mid-screen?

Am I on the money? A scrub that needs to git gud? What?

 

[Gooberking]

Been doing some thinking on some things after playing out some, what I feel to be, bad matchups for Venomous D'vorah. This might be an outrageous statement, so I'm running it by everyone here.

Does Venom have the worst anti-zoning ability in the game? Puddle is not what it was, and it already was full combo punishable from fullscreen on a read. Now it gets you maybe a dash or a short run in on block, assuming you didn't get hit or knocked down doing it.

D'vorah's run speed is undeniably great, but her walk speed is atrocious. I want to say it's one of the worst in the game, but I don't have factual proof of what the worst walks are. Does anyone know of walk speed ranking? Either way, run has gotten less important in the new meta and walk speed more important. Against zoners that make you walk in, it can take a long, long time to waddle them to the corner.

What other anti-zoning options does Venomous have? F42 is too slow to help in most cases. X-ray is good, but it costs 3 bars. Not exactly something you can use all the time.

Now, I'm perfectly fine with a character having weaknesses. That's important. But I often feel like I legitimately have the least possible options against a character with good zoning. Your Quans, Cyber Kanos, Piercing Mileenas, etc. No teleport, advancing armor, projectile parry, dive kick, and I don't think she's great at getting in honestly.

Aren't weaknesses supposed to be balanced by strengths? Venomous is...okay up close. Kind of like a less damaging version of Thunder God with better mids, no corner carry, and a gimmicky version of safety. Why does this variation have to feel so helpless past mid-screen?

Am I on the money? A scrub that needs to git gud? What?

I really wanted to ask this after last night. I was fighting someone that was playing scorpion and he was aggressively running away and I felt pretty powerless.
Even if I could get to him, he was just a teleport away from getting away or out of the corner. I really started wondering how you are supposed to close a gap with her. With the way puddle is now I came up with nothing.

 

[Second Saint]

I really wanted to ask this after last night. I was fighting someone that was playing scorpion and he was aggressively running away and I felt pretty powerless.
Even if I could get to him, he was just a teleport away from getting away or out of the corner. I really started wondering how you are supposed to close a gap with her. With the way puddle is now I came up with nothing.

What variation of Scorpion? It seems pretty telling if Ninjutsu was giving you this kind of trouble. Though I suppose you could count it as a less traditional mid range zoner.

 

[Gooberking]

What variation of Scorpion? It seems pretty telling if Ninjutsu was giving you this kind of trouble. Though I suppose you could count it as a less traditional mid range zoner.

Hellfire actually. He just did everything he could to say as far away as possible and tossed flames at my feet. If I jumped that was a problem. If I puddled it couldn't compete with the unblockable in any way. Can't out run it either. If I could get to him he would flame up so I couldn't touch him and it ended up being his advantage if I did. Or he would just teleport and the whole struggle continued.

Me losing isn't all that telling of anything though. I tend to lose a lot more than I win these days and I was still losing with other characters. I just didn't feel like I lost in those cases because I was starving for options like I did with Venomous.

 

[Wazminator]

Been doing some thinking on some things after playing out some, what I feel to be, bad matchups for Venomous D'vorah. This might be an outrageous statement, so I'm running it by everyone here.

Does Venom have the worst anti-zoning ability in the game? Puddle is not what it was, and it already was full combo punishable from fullscreen on a read. Now it gets you maybe a dash or a short run in on block, assuming you didn't get hit or knocked down doing it.

D'vorah's run speed is undeniably great, but her walk speed is atrocious. I want to say it's one of the worst in the game, but I don't have factual proof of what the worst walks are. Does anyone know of walk speed ranking? Either way, run has gotten less important in the new meta and walk speed more important. Against zoners that make you walk in, it can take a long, long time to waddle them to the corner.

What other anti-zoning options does Venomous have? F42 is too slow to help in most cases. X-ray is good, but it costs 3 bars. Not exactly something you can use all the time.

Now, I'm perfectly fine with a character having weaknesses. That's important. But I often feel like I legitimately have the least possible options against a character with good zoning. Your Quans, Cyber Kanos, Piercing Mileenas, etc. No teleport, advancing armor, projectile parry, dive kick, and I don't think she's great at getting in honestly.

Aren't weaknesses supposed to be balanced by strengths? Venomous is...okay up close. Kind of like a less damaging version of Thunder God with better mids, no corner carry, and a gimmicky version of safety. Why does this variation have to feel so helpless past mid-screen?

Am I on the money? A scrub that needs to git gud? What?

I'm with you on this, Venomous feels pretty booty ATM, even her neutral is no where near as rewarding as the other two seeing as her f11 damage is so little lmao..

Vsing zoners with D'Vorah (any variation) is a lot harder now, not even BM does much work against good zoners in this game with her slow ass projectiles haha, don't know too much about the walk speed stuff though.

 

[Second Saint]

Hellfire actually. He just did everything he could to say as far away as possible and tossed flames at my feet. If I jumped that was a problem. If I puddled it couldn't compete with the unblockable in any way. Can't out run it either. If I could get to him he would flame up so I couldn't touch him and it ended up being his advantage if I did. Or he would just teleport and the whole struggle continued.

Me losing isn't all that telling of anything though. I tend to lose a lot more than I win these days and I was still losing with other characters. I just didn't feel like I lost in those cases because I was starving for options like I did with Venomous.

Well, what I meant was that if Ninjutsu was giving you that specific kind of trouble, being unable to get in, while not being designed to keep people out in the slightest, that is indicative of a problem.

I'm with you on this, Venomous feels pretty booty ATM, even her neutral is no where near as rewarding as the other two seeing as her f11 damage is so little lmao..

Vsing zoners with D'Vorah (any variation) is a lot harder now, not even BM does much work against good zoners in this game with her slow ass projectiles haha, don't know too much about the walk speed stuff though.

I'm at a bit of an impasse about all this. I've mained Venomous for over a year. I've put my time and effort into it, come up with real tech for it, optimal absurd damaging combos that I almost never even get to attempt, grinded the bad matchups, and it has just steadily gotten worse when it wasn't that good to begin with. Because apparently our unsafe vortex wasn't unsafe enough and too much of an actual vortex. I just don't care if some people don't have the reactions to punish it anymore.

I don't like asking for buffs. I really don't, especially only 2 weeks after a new patch, but I'm afraid if I don't Venom will somehow either get worse or stay stagnant down where it's at now, which is generously B- tier.

Not even just Venomous, D'vorah as a whole has myriad issues. Maybe I should compile them, make more people aware of all the stuff that's actually wrong with this character. BM's whiffing issues and ridiculous gaps, Venomous' lack of comboability and neutral options, SQ's issues are well known I think (the puddle and stamina nerfs).

 

[Second Saint]

I found what I think is a new gimmick in Brood Mother. Because of the recovery buff, you can space out a bug blast and have it be plus on block. At the max distance for f22, bug blast is plus 3 or so, further testing is required. There's a few problems with this like the massive gap and ability to neutral duck the df1 to punish, but BM also has options to deal with those, such as canceling to bait armor, krawler/puddle to beat neutral ducking, finishing the string, etc. The good news is if they try to jump out, they usually get it by the df1, which leads to a nice conversion opportunity.

F22 may still have a use for spacing people out in the corner and leading to some mind games.

 

[Wazminator]

I found what I think is a new gimmick in Brood Mother. Because of the recovery buff, you can space out a bug blast and have it be plus on block. At the max distance for f22, bug blast is plus 3 or so, further testing is required. There's a few problems with this like the massive gap and ability to neutral duck the df1 to punish, but BM also has options to deal with those, such as canceling to bait armor, krawler/puddle to beat neutral ducking, finishing the string, etc. The good news is if they try to jump out, they usually get it by the df1, which leads to a nice conversion opportunity.

F22 may still have a use for spacing people out in the corner and leading to some mind games.

Good stuff, looking at it now, max range f22 df1 couldnt really be punished by many chars at that range tbh (without armour) and like you said that opens up more mind games which is something good to have, I'll defs try to implement this into my game, you're killing it lately in the lab!

 

[smokey]

@Braindead When I hit you with f22 EX bug but was too far to combo. Maybe I actually did run in and beat your d1 if f22 normal bug is + on block here.

 

[Second Saint]

@Braindead When I hit you with f22 EX bug but was too far to combo. Maybe I actually did run in and beat your d1 if f22 normal bug is + on block here.

Well, f22~ex bug is at least +6 on block when spaced out, so I'd say you beat the d1, yeah. Not to mention that on hit ex bug blast is definitely going to be more plus if spaced out. That used to be how BM combos worked at all. It's the travel frames, since you're already recovered by the time they get hit, then the actual hit stun kicks in.