Match-up Discussion Ducky's Raven MU Chart

[Glass Sword]

Catwomen- she low profiles f2 and soul crush with b3 and cat stance. Mb cat dash is stuffs soul crush on a read. She vortexs you if she touches you on knockdown.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

Agree with 6-4 Joker. Possibly 5-5 because he can abuse the shit out of her when she's knocked down, but he definitely struggles at closing the gap on her.
I don't think I have enough experience with the matchup to make any definitive claims though.

 

[Qwark28]

Agree with 6-4 Joker. Possibly 5-5 because he can abuse the shit out of her when she's knocked down, but he definitely struggles at closing the gap on her.
I don't think I have enough experience with the matchup to make any definitive claims though.

Knocking her down is why this is 4-6, we always must rush her, demon stance does too much chip and builds too much pushblock meter for her to prefer rushing us on a lifelead.

 

[Glass Sword]

Knocking her down is why this is 4-6, we always must rush her, demon stance does too much chip and builds too much pushblock meter for her to prefer rushing us on a lifelead.

This is the reason for some of my numbers risk vs reward. Joker's reward outside the corner does not match the risk he faces to rush Raven down. Characters with unfuzzyable 50-50s with high damage get all the reward for a knockdown.
Speaking of fuzzying does martian have unfuzzyable mixups?

 

[Qwark28]

This is the reason for some of my numbers risk vs reward. Joker's reward outside the corner does not match the risk he faces to rush Raven down. Characters with unfuzzyable 50-50s with high damage get all the reward for a knockdown.
Speaking of fuzzying does martian have unfuzzyable mixups?

I hate how she almost matches Joker's damage and even almost outfootsies him, zoners in this game don't follow the "eat shit getting in, force shit down their throats when you do" kinda rule. She can convert better, poke better and b23 better, it's a really tough 6-4.

 

[Sami]

Raven has been one of my characters since April. However I've been using her less and less once I found out she's an asshole:

Reposting stuff from 8 months ago that was originally posted by somebody else? Kinda passing it off as your own? I'm ashamed of you. (no it wasn't me who posted it).


Also, Duckie that's some serious up-play happing in some of those matches especially KF.

 

[Blind_Ducky]

Well I am fixing to get on a plane so I'll explain a few now and a few later.
Flash- mb lighting charge while unsafe limits your options. He punishes soul cherish everywhere, but max distance. Mid pillar becomes risky because YOLO charge beats everything, but block. He has unfuzzyable 50/50s which lead to 50%. He can stuff wakeups with the overhead so he vortexs you on knockdown. His d2 cleanly beats j3 and 2 due to it low profiling. Uppercut punishes lift no matter the spacing.
You lottery have to play nearly a faultless game to avoid a knockdown into a 50/50 which could kill you. Not to mention he has one of the best forward dashes in the game and you have no reliable way to damage him.
Grundy- Armor everywhere since he can cancel walking corpse anytime Grundy gets in for almost free pillars becomes a liability due walking corpse. Chip trait shuts down Raven's damage off trait and he has one of the best d2s in the game and air throw. Plus due to Raven's bad wake ups it is a similar situation as Flash on knockdown. He also hurts almost just as much. With one walking corpse Grundy could kill you. Not to mention his awesome forward dash.
These two characters just naturally beat Raven's move set.

Charge is a huge risk for him. I've played this mu plenty against The_SNKE and we both agree that it is 6-4 Flash. If this mu is 7-3 then I'm just fucking godlike (not the case).
Grundy can be thrown out of wcc. Armor is a problem but proper use of b23 is great for working around walking corpse. I re watched my matches with tyrant and played a lot of matches with chef and there is no way the mu could be a 7-3 for Grundy. If he gets chip trait and a life lead then its like 10-0 Grundy.

I wouldn't think orbs would look like his reflectable overhead projectile to people.. Maybe it's just online? Raven being free on knockdown is just a problem Raven has in general so I don't see how it makes this match up bad but not others. I only got to play this match up a lil bit but it felt fairly even.

So in other words. Superman beats everyone... lol.

PS: I don't see it being that bad for Raven kompared to other characters because she kan get a D1~Lift kombo punish if she guesses korrectly. Some characters don't even get a real punish.

Reflecting orbs is different than a projectile. Knockdowns are a problem depending on how easy it is to zone out a character. Martian only gets zoned out when Raven is in trait.

Superman blocks it and I eat 80%-100%.

 

[Immortal]

I wouldn't think orbs would look like his reflectable overhead projectile to people.. Maybe it's just online? Raven being free on knockdown is just a problem Raven has in general so I don't see how it makes this match up bad but not others. I only got to play this match up a lil bit but it felt fairly even.

Coz MMH has many options to fuck Raven even full screen. Orbs in general are a problem for her since i can make most of my offensive options safe, any good MMH will use them all the time in this MU. It's true that Raven can zone (in trait only) MMH thou its still very risky and one good read / timing leads to 41% dmg. Up close Raven doesn't exist, and MMH trait just fucks her so badly.... + on knockdown its a rape.

I didn't play Ducky Raven so things may change since hes awesome with her but for now i don't see how this can be even, 6-4 for MMH in my book.

 

[16 Bit]

Catwomen- she low profiles f2 and soul crush with b3 and cat stance. Mb cat dash is stuffs soul crush on a read. She vortexs you if she touches you on knockdown.

Emo?

 

[Blind_Ducky]

Why is KF 5-5?


Even if raven does reflect the dagger, frost can still spike her for free before she can even send out the orb. KF's shouldn't be zoning raven anyway. Use the dagger sparingly to bait the jump, soul crush or reflect.

Soul crush isn't a problem if frost is patient. There's absolutely no reason for frost to even use spike unless she blocks a soul crush or reacts to the reflect. Same thing with the grab in demon stance, if frost is playing patient, then the grab isn't a problem. Even in demon stance, raven has to respect the spike somewhat because she can still get a combo.

All KF has to do is get a life lead and chill.

Raven also doesn't have to just soul crush whenever she wants and I don't have to mb the reflect. If you iceberg on a normal reflect Raven blocks it. So you'll get a lifelead, then Raven will go into trait and just chip you to death. Raven can actually get the lifelead and just wait it out because you don't have a way to safely chip me.

Catwomen- she low profiles f2 and soul crush with b3 and cat stance. Mb cat dash is stuffs soul crush on a read. She vortexs you if she touches you on knockdown.

That's her b3 and maybe cat stance, which isn't that huge of a problem, especially when b3 doesn't go under b23. MB cat dash doesn't come out immediately, same problem as doomsdays shoulder.

 

[Blind_Ducky]

Reposting stuff from 8 months ago that was originally posted by somebody else? Kinda passing it off as your own? I'm ashamed of you. (no it wasn't me who posted it).


Also, Duckie that's some serious up-play happing in some of those matches especially KF.

Then give your numbers and explain.

 

[Red Reaper]

Coz MMH has many options to fuck Raven even full screen. Orbs in general are a problem for her since i can make most of my offensive options safe, any good MMH will use them all the time in this MU. It's true that Raven can zone (in trait only) MMH thou its still very risky and one good read / timing leads to 41% dmg. Up close Raven doesn't exist, and MMH trait just fucks her so badly.... + on knockdown its a rape.

I didn't play Ducky Raven so things may change since hes awesome with her but for now i don't see how this can be even, 6-4 for MMH in my book.

Reflecting orbs is different than a projectile. Knockdowns are a problem depending on how easy it is to zone out a character. Martian only gets zoned out when Raven is in trait.

I'll think about it and maybe re-pick up Raven on the side to see how the match up feels before I say anymore. I don't generally fear Martian's pressure but then again, I don't fear Flash's either so maybe I'm irrational.

Superman blocks it and I eat 80%-100%.

Dive Bombs are punishable. You kan do more than just D1~lift MB. It's very minus, you just have to punish him before he lands.

 

[Blind_Ducky]

Dive Bombs are punishable. You kan do more than just D1~lift MB. It's very minus, you just have to punish him before he lands.

I know, I was punishing them at nec

 

[Red Reaper]

I know, I was punishing them at nec

Just letting you know kuz you said he would block your punish and hit you for 80%.

 

[Blind_Ducky]

Just letting you know kuz you said he would block your punish and hit you for 80%.

I thought you were talking about something else, nvm.

 

[Zoidberg747]

Why is KF 5-5?


Even if raven does reflect the dagger, frost can still spike her for free before she can even send out the orb. KF's shouldn't be zoning raven anyway. Use the dagger sparingly to bait the jump, soul crush or reflect.

Soul crush isn't a problem if frost is patient. There's absolutely no reason for frost to even use spike unless she blocks a soul crush or reacts to the reflect. Same thing with the grab in demon stance, if frost is playing patient, then the grab isn't a problem. Even in demon stance, raven has to respect the spike somewhat because she can still get a combo.

All KF has to do is get a life lead and chill.

I agree with this


also lol @ the pun

 

[Mr. Mileena]

I personally think Zatanna loses to Raven. But Glass Sword, saying Zatanna beats Raven is a little too much imo.

 

[Sami]

Blind_Man xKhaoTik

Killer Frost: Up close we have the vortex of hell, and both the meter and meterless ones give Raven masses of grief. The meter one she's forced to block correctly and she can't wake up out of the meter-less one due to the odd hitbox of Singularity. On knockdown KF has the option of MB f3 to stuff everything, all the time.

Full screen with Raven has no trait, KF wins the zoning war. It doesn't matter that Iceberg is -26 on block when Raven can't punish it (no move long enough). Shadow Raven gets countered by Iceberg, slide and air-dash. Getting a little bit closer, and blocked Soul Crush leads to I believe a full-combo punish (might not happen at max of SC range), while a blocked Iceberg leads to a Soul Crush and if you feel like burning meter, 2 Soul Crushes. Soul Crush can also be air-dashed over at max height, and KF's ji1 completely changes her hit-box and makes SC wiff even harder than usual. Ice Daggers trade in KF favour too (11% vs up to 8%).

Pillar zoning is as much of a guessing game for Raven as it is for KF. If KF correctly reads a pillar and slides, full combo for KF if in range of slide. If KF correctly reads a pillar/pull and Icebergs, combo for KF. Raven gets a full combo off grab though. If you have more than 3 frame gap between the pillar and a Soul Crush (remember that KF can take advantage of reversal buffering) then Iceberg will win.

KF gets out of most of Raven's ambiguous cross-up jump-in setups thanks to slide. The only time that often fails is if you reverse the wake-ups, but that can be option selected with back, down, 3, hold forward. If the input isn't reverse then slide comes out. If the input is reverse then you get forward, down, 3, hold back (yes that's some "new" tech I just figured out for dealing with wake up reversal but might already be known). fd3 isn't a valid wake-up so you just get back which will magically block the jump-in the correct way. And if you get the rare inputs-accepted-but-direction-reversed then KF just slides the other way to safety. Dash and NJ setups are stuffed just by crouching as JI1/2/3 will all wiff due to Raven being directly over their head (and it's not like KF has to fear a fast overhead from Raven). KF can then D2 on reaction to the NJ1/2/3 for full combo punish.

The good news (lol) is that a blocked Iceberg gives a full punish in Demon Stance and the chance of a full punish in normal stance depending on your distance. Her daggers are seemingly treated as a single projectile for the purposes of Empty Void so you'll either absorb both or none - no risk of getting hit by one of them and not the other. Besides that, KF has more mobility and access to her zoning tools at all time. She can escape Raven's setups, full combo punish Raven's mistakes and per Raven into setups that require a blind guess to get out of.

Definite advantage for KF. I've given up on numbers as they're kind of meaningless.


edit: it's 12:30am, I'm fully aware of the atrocious grammar and typos in places

 

[The_SNKE]

Grundy can be thrown out of wcc. Armor is a problem but proper use of b23 is great for working around walking corpse. I re watched my matches with tyrant and played a lot of matches with chef and there is no way the mu could be a 7-3 for Grundy. If he gets chip trait and a life lead then its like 10-0 Grundy.

I've been working on my Grundy a lot lately. We'll grind this next time we get together

 

[Rickyraws]

Reposting stuff from 8 months ago that was originally posted by somebody else? Kinda passing it off as your own? I'm ashamed of you. (no it wasn't me who posted it).


Also, Duckie that's some serious up-play happing in some of those matches especially KF.

?? Never passed it off as my own, lol both gifs are all over TYM

 

[Sami]

?? Never passed it off as my own, lol both gifs are all over TYM

I kid, I kid . I just have the "original" bookmarked in honour of it nearly ruining my monitor when I first saw it while eating .

 

[Nivek]

I like a lot this MU chart because it doesnt have any 7-3s or 8-2s
Also guys on wake up, many 50/50 mix ups can be destroyed by a simple back dash!!exept corner ofc

Wonder Woman: 5-5

I dont have any exp with raven.. i know raven has great zoning with and without trait and ww has great anti zoning like insta.air demigodess and shield toss/bass.. but why 5-5??

Btw very good perfomance on NEC!!keep going!!

 

[Blind_Ducky]

Blind_Man xKhaoTik

Killer Frost: Up close we have the vortex of hell, and both the meter and meterless ones give Raven masses of grief. The meter one she's forced to block correctly and she can't wake up out of the meter-less one due to the odd hitbox of Singularity. On knockdown KF has the option of MB f3 to stuff everything, all the time.

Full screen with Raven has no trait, KF wins the zoning war. It doesn't matter that Iceberg is -26 on block when Raven can't punish it (no move long enough). Shadow Raven gets countered by Iceberg, slide and air-dash. Getting a little bit closer, and blocked Soul Crush leads to I believe a full-combo punish (might not happen at max of SC range), while a blocked Iceberg leads to a Soul Crush and if you feel like burning meter, 2 Soul Crushes. Soul Crush can also be air-dashed over at max height, and KF's ji1 completely changes her hit-box and makes SC wiff even harder than usual. Ice Daggers trade in KF favour too (11% vs up to 8%).

Pillar zoning is as much of a guessing game for Raven as it is for KF. If KF correctly reads a pillar and slides, full combo for KF if in range of slide. If KF correctly reads a pillar/pull and Icebergs, combo for KF. Raven gets a full combo off grab though. If you have more than 3 frame gap between the pillar and a Soul Crush (remember that KF can take advantage of reversal buffering) then Iceberg will win.

KF gets out of most of Raven's ambiguous cross-up jump-in setups thanks to slide. The only time that often fails is if you reverse the wake-ups, but that can be option selected with back, down, 3, hold forward. If the input isn't reverse then slide comes out. If the input is reverse then you get forward, down, 3, hold back (yes that's some "new" tech I just figured out for dealing with wake up reversal but might already be known). fd3 isn't a valid wake-up so you just get back which will magically block the jump-in the correct way. And if you get the rare inputs-accepted-but-direction-reversed then KF just slides the other way to safety. Dash and NJ setups are stuffed just by crouching as JI1/2/3 will all wiff due to Raven being directly over their head (and it's not like KF has to fear a fast overhead from Raven). KF can then D2 on reaction to the NJ1/2/3 for full combo punish.

The good news (lol) is that a blocked Iceberg gives a full punish in Demon Stance and the chance of a full punish in normal stance depending on your distance. Her daggers are seemingly treated as a single projectile for the purposes of Empty Void so you'll either absorb both or none - no risk of getting hit by one of them and not the other. Besides that, KF has more mobility and access to her zoning tools at all time. She can escape Raven's setups, full combo punish Raven's mistakes and per Raven into setups that require a blind guess to get out of.

Definite advantage for KF. I've given up on numbers as they're kind of meaningless.


edit: it's 12:30am, I'm fully aware of the atrocious grammar and typos in places

This doesn't include every possible thing both characters can do in every situation and it's easy to make things very one sided. I also typing walls of text of theory fighting. Basically both characters have to read what the others going to do and can punish each other for about equal pay off. The match up is 5-5.

 

[Blind_Ducky]

I like a lot this MU chart because it doesnt have any 7-3s or 8-2s
Also guys on wake up, many 50/50 mix ups can be destroyed by a simple back dash!!exept corner ofc

I dont have any exp with raven.. i know raven has great zoning with and without trait and ww has great anti zoning like insta.air demigodess and shield toss/bass.. but why 5-5??

Btw very good perfomance on NEC!!keep going!!

Yeah she doesn't lose badly to anyone or body anyone terribly. Raven can zone her alright but iadg helps her get in if she makes a good read and Wonder Woman outdamages Raven and has good knockdown pressure once she's in.

 

[Blind_Ducky]

I've been working on my Grundy a lot lately. We'll grind this next time we get together

YAAAY I need this <3