Match-up Discussion DS Matchup Chart after a year into IGAU

[YOMI MITYEAP]

I agree that the match-up needs to be fleshed out a bit more. To be fair, adopting NW as a secondary has made me realize that while NW has some crazy good stuff going for him, his greatest asset is lack of match-up knowledge. His weaknesses are very apparent when his opponent actually understands what they're dealing with.

Definitely, NW has a big bag of tricks at his disposal lol . But he has some solid things as well.

 

[FOREVER EL1TE]

Back nd forth, blow for blow. I guess we will have to agree to disagree, it shall be fleshed out for sure as time goes on

I agree

 

[Chongo]

Its different
If im in staff and block one of your gunshots then you'll either eat the damage from ground pound
or block it. If you block it im pretty sure we trade the next time.
Plus upclose you cant jump because Flying graysons anti airs and gold help you if you in the corner while im in staff stance.
Plus if I MB STAFF SPARK after a blocked gunshot then your eating a lot of chip or I can use the frame advantage and dash or flying grayson in. While your blocking thinking that ima do another Ground spark

If ds blocks a ground blast from close to full screen and tries to gunshot/low shot he'll either get beat out or he'll get the first shot out first and you win the trade (5% vs 3%)
If he blocks a ground blast from close to full screen and dashes and you go for another gb he avoids it and can punish you with guns.

You're not mentioning that DS jumps in for free since NW can't anti air.

DS also handles B2 and its followups very well with d2.

b2xxflipkick can be interrupted with d2 into full combo
b2xxground spark can be interrupted with d2 into full combo or blocked on reaction
b2xx4xxstaff spin trades and DS wins (5% vs 3%)
b2xx4xxgroundblast gets interrupted with d2 blah blah

If you do b2 and block he's +1 and if you b2 and backdash on a read he can forward j3 for pressure at least.

 

[Slips]

@GGA Slips, the only other issue I have with the GL match-up is that I'm not so sure anymore that DS out-zones GL as hard as I once thought. Once he gets within lift range (a little past half-screen) you can't touch gun shots at all; past that range, air rockets will generally beat all of your ground-based gun shot options, and the damage exchange between air rockets and connected gun shots is in GL's favor unless you spend meter, something GL doesn't have to do. So you have to guess he's gonna jump and do air Quick Fire. This is a great situation for DS if you make a correct read, but... guessing wrong means he gets within lift range, and that's bad news for DS in the neutral game.

Being able to consistently backdash b13 obviously changes the dynamic of the match-up drastically compared to what I knew before, but I still feel like DS has to work a lot harder for high damage opportunities than GL, and that causes me to question the favorable nature of the match-up for DS.

You don't have to just throw out air quick fires. You see him jump, jump back with him and see if he does an air missile or not. If he does then just shoot him. If he doesn't then just land. No need to take the risk.

 

[FOREVER EL1TE]

If ds blocks a ground blast from close to full screen and tries to gunshot/low shot he'll either get beat out or he'll get the first shot out first and you win the trade (5% vs 3%)
If he blocks a ground blast from close to full screen and dashes and you go for another gb he avoids it and can punish you with guns.

You're not mentioning that DS jumps in for free since NW can't anti air.

DS also handles B2 and its followups very well with d2.

b2xxflipkick can be interrupted with d2 into full combo
b2xxground spark can be interrupted with d2 into full combo or blocked on reaction
b2xx4xxstaff spin trades and DS wins (5% vs 3%)
b2xx4xxgroundblast gets interrupted with d2 blah blah

If you do b2 and block he's +1 and if you b2 and backdash on a read he can forward j3 for pressure at least.

Nightwing standing 1 AA in staff stance

 

[Chongo]

Nightwing standing 1 AA in staff stance

ok, but at most you're getting 21%, and you have to be really good with the timing, if you're off by a tiny bit you either get hit or trade (his 11% vs your 5%) it's an option but not an end all be all solution

 

[FOREVER EL1TE]

ok, but at most you're getting 21%, and you have to be really good with the timing, if you're off by a tiny bit you either get hit or trade (his 11% vs your 5%) it's an option but not an end all be all solution

True true

 

[Argenrost]

You're not mentioning that DS jumps in for free since NW can't anti air.

Staff d2 with NW is a lot better than people realize...

 

[Argenrost]

You don't have to just throw out air quick fires. You see him jump, jump back with him and see if he does an air missile or not. If he does then just shoot him. If he doesn't then just land. No need to take the risk.

Times like this I feel like I've been conditioned to respect certain moves too much, lol. Clearly I need to be more spot on with my execution.

 

[Chongo]

Staff d2 with NW is a lot better than people realize...

It has a great hitbox that beats out bats j2, but it loses to J3 and does like no damage. It's not useful in this MU.

 

[M2Dave]

I definitely need to play it more, but from playing m2dave in some matches, I definitely know some things about it.
*DS's zoning obviously will be an issue since he can low gunshot zod's quickshot, he can low gunshot under instant air zod balls, and his standing gun shot too fast for zod's projectiles in general.
*Up close, DS can abuse the fact that zod's wakeups are meh, so u can work the oki game and utilize DS's 50/50 mixups.
*DS has better wakeups just in case he needs to use them, zod will have to respect DS's wakeups more
*Now trait is definitely an issue for sure, great thing about DS is you can shoot him before he gets trait out since guns possess that kind of speed
*DS's footsies will do him wonders from sweep distance as you have f3, b1, and d2 at your disposal.
I will however tag @AK Pig Of The Hut and get his input on the matchup as well.
@C88_Real_Harris

You have definitely never fought me. You are listing misinformation after misinformation. While this whole thread is very good (for comedic purposes), let me at least correct the record on Zod.

- Deathstroke's zoning is irrelevant. After blocking low gunshots, low laser checks all projectiles with the exception of instant aerial gunshots. Low laser also does more chip damage than low gunshots. I encourage any Deathstroke player to try to out zone me. The tag is m2dave on both PSN and XBL.
- Zod has no reason to use instant aerial Zod balls when he can use grounded ones. Grounded balls always trade in Zod's favor and waste precious seconds for the trait.
- Zod's wake up back dash avoids all of Deathstroke's primary options (i.e., b+1,u+2, b+2, even f+3 and jump 3).
- Because Zod has no mix ups outside of trait, he has very little reason to pressure Deathstroke on wake up.
- While activating trait, take your 6%. I still have enough time to charge in and do a fairly safe mix up that may lead to 40-45% of damage.
- Zod sucks at footsies and has no reason to play them unless his opponent can force him to, and Deathstroke cannot.

6:4 in Zod's, especially on stages with reappearing interactable objects. Deathstroke is only scary in the corner.

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

Lmao @General M2Dave, we played some months back, u must not remember. Also we can play again if necessary, I am down with that. Of course u must downplay m2dave.

 

[M2Dave]

Lmao @General M2Dave, we played some months back, u must not remember. Also we can play again if necessary, I am down with that. Of course u must downplay m2dave.

I am not down playing, but this Deathstroke forum is full of "Ra Helios".

Looking at some of these match up charts, Deathstroke must be top 5.

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

I am not down playing, but this Deathstroke forum is full of "Ra Helios".

Looking at some of these match up charts, Deathstroke must be top 5.

K

 

[Justice]

I would really like to call DS/Catwoman a 10-0 matchup but I'm sure that's some of my lack of matchup experience talking. I would say that it's at least a 7-3. All Gunshots blow up all of Selina's armour, jumpins get up-shotted, every character in the game can make B3 whiff with a backdash, Selina can evade Gunshots but gains no screen position for doing so, block+walk strats are met with Sword Flips for push back and negative frames. The only way Catwoman can get in on DS is if the DS player goes to make a sammich.

If I am wrong (and I sincerely hope I am) can someone please explain what Catwoman can do vs two full screen zoning tools?

 

[Digit]

@Indecisive (>1000 matches in this one MU haha)

@Digit (You have Mattix right?)

Yup I play Mattix' DS all the time and always go back and forth

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

Yup I play Mattix' DS all the time and always go back and forth

Could u give me a small breakdown? I would appreciate the input

 

[Digit]

Could u give me a small breakdown? I would appreciate the input

Well it's a really patient game both players have to play. Shazam has to be careful dashing up on DS when close. And DS has to react to Shazam's movement.
But once Shazam gets a knockdown, of course that's where the mindgames come in place. Shazam can get heavy damage punish on DS wakeups. But to be fair, I'd say it's 6-4 in DS favor cuz it's a struggle for Shazam to get in from zoning.

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

Well it's a really patient game both players have to play. Shazam has to be careful dashing up on DS when close. And DS has to react to Shazam's movement.
But once Shazam gets a knockdown, of course that's where the mindgames come in place. Shazam can get heavy damage punish on DS wakeups. But to be fair, I'd say it's 6-4 in DS favor cuz it's a struggle for Shazam to get in from zoning.

Good take, thanks for the input.

 

[Fred Marvel]

Green Lantern: 5-5 - i think this is 6-4. from full screen, lantern can't really compete with low guns so he has to approach DS until he gets into lift range. at lift range, you can't use guns but i dont think thats a big deal. lantern has a hard time getting okizeme off of DS. sword flip eliminates most of the mixup after a lift in trait. its limited to whether or not lantern will push a button rather than guessing left, right or down. it also eliminates the neutral jump setups after a lift in trait once you get lantern to respect your flip, you can start doing things like waking up with a grab or wake up and then go for overhead/low, or force him to go for guaranteed damage instead of reset damage which is significantly less. on the other hand, lantern's lack of wakeups leave him really susceptible to a lot of DS's setups. the only wakeup you really have to watch out for is lift and if you armor through it, you take jack shit damage so you can use MB f3 pretty liberally when you have low health. also its really important that you practice backdashing b1. even though he has options to check you for backdashing, its not worth letting him get safe pressure 24/7. also, all his options to check backdashing are unsafe. b1 minigun is slow as shit and ive interupted it with something as slow as i14 (stand 3) and ao's rocket is a high and even if he MB's it, the rocket will explode behind you on whiff at that range so you can d2 him, or maybe even more because hes still in recovery for a while. backdashing b13 gives you around 15 frame window to punish. stand 3 will work but if you backdash b13 while cornered, the invuln frames on the backdash will still be active when the elbow comes you and you are in range to punish with stand 1. if he does b1 lift, the lift will whiff if you backdash and you can get MB high guns for max dammy and unclashable or sword flip for hard knockdown. i personally like going for hard knockdown and create distance. of course, if you dont backdash the lift hes -8billion so you can blow him up for that. thoughts?

Green Lantern: 6-4

DS obviously wins the zoning war. DS d2 is pretty decent at AA'ing GL at a lot of angles. GL's b1 game is greatly in DS's favor. Backdashing a GL b13 gives DS a free b1u3 (or even DS has 2 bars or backround bounce nearby, it's even more damage). If GL tries to punish backdash after b1 is blocked he opens himself up to being full combo punished. So GL has to use other means besides b1 to get in sometimes.

So ultimately getting outzoned and b1 game being so risky seems to me that GL is pretty far outside of his normal comfort zone to call it a 5-5. That's how I view it anyway.

I think he beats Green Lantern, goes even with Batgirl, beats Black Adam, destroys Hawkgirl and Ares 7-3, and goes even with Aquaman. That's all I'd change for the most part.

*looks at GL forums*

 

[haketh]

Kind of thinking BG is possibly 5-5, I can see 6-4 but I feel the footsies options DS has can really make the MU a hassle and we all know DS has great wakeup options.

 

[Argenrost]

- Deathstroke's zoning is irrelevant. After blocking low gunshots, low laser checks all projectiles with the exception of instant aerial gunshots. Low laser also does more chip damage than low gunshots. I encourage any Deathstroke player to try to out zone me. The tag is m2dave on both PSN and XBL.
- Zod has no reason to use instant aerial Zod balls when he can use grounded ones. Grounded balls always trade in Zod's favor and waste precious seconds for the trait.
- Zod's wake up back dash avoids all of Deathstroke's primary options (i.e., b+1,u+2, b+2, even f+3 and jump 3).
- Because Zod has no mix ups outside of trait, he has very little reason to pressure Deathstroke on wake up.
- While activating trait, take your 6%. I still have enough time to charge in and do a fairly safe mix up that may lead to 40-45% of damage.
- Zod sucks at footsies and has no reason to play them unless his opponent can force him to, and Deathstroke cannot.

6:4 in Zod's, especially on stages with reappearing interactable objects. Deathstroke is only scary in the corner.

Look guys, I know the way M2Dave presents his points isn't exactly diplomatic and leaves a bitter taste in everyone's mouth here, but... in terms of the Zod match-up, he's actually quite on point imo. It's far too easy for Zod to keep DS out with not a lot of effort, and nearly every trade in zoning is in Zod's favor, with the potential to be overwhelmingly so. And this doesn't even take Zod's trait into account.

DS has a lot of merits as a character, something we all understand and strive to prove, but 6-4 Zod for that match-up is a totally fair assessment as far as I'm concerned. It's not impossible but DS has to work a lot harder to win than Zod does and you need to be really good at blocking and/or use your meter very efficiently to capitalize on situations where Zod might get lazy.

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

Thread bumped. Let's keep the DS MU talk going strong

 

[L1FTER]

What makes the Black Adam match up 5-5?

 

[RM Jonnitti]

What make the Black Adam match up 5-5?

i feel like DS has all the tools to deal with black adam. he can punish black magic from anywhere. on reaction you can do iAGs to punish low lightnight now that it doesnt hit you in the air. whenever he jumps you can just jump back and punish any divekicks with jb3 or just create distance. the one thing that really keeps black adam going is his wakeup lightning cage is really annoying to deal with because he decides to MB it then it will go through MB f3 and give him a full combo. however, black adam is really weak against neutral jump setups, so instead of going for F3 setups or safejumps, these work well, but i dont know any that work midscreen so if anyone can help me out with that i would <3 you forever.

i have a ton of experience against rico but ive never beaten him. also hes a much better player than me cuz i is scrub