Do you think Adderall or its variants give an unfair advantage?

[EMPEROR PRYCE]

Once youve learned the game and understand the mechanics and the meta 100%, the only to work on is reads and reactions. Both of which adderal hells with majorly. So yeah, definitely unfair

 

[Rude]

...so the players who are legitimately prescribed Adderall for ADHD by licensed physicians are just fucked, huh?

Sounds about right.

 

[B. Shazzy]

From someone who has taken drugs growing up, I say no. If someone wants to take Adderall to feel good, or fool themselves into thinking that they're playing better than why not? It's the same as if I wanted to smoke a nice bowl before gaming because I enjoy the game more as opposed to being sober. Yeah, both help you concentrate better, but IMO I can't help thinking that people just want something to cry about. That's like saying football players can't take ballet classes to become more limber is cheating.

No. It would me more like saying professional athletes taking Adderall is cheating because it's actually banned in profesional sports because guess why.

 

[Eddy Wang]

I play better with my glasses on. (Glasses buff)

 

[CAM THE SAGE]

I saw this thread on EventHubs (http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2016/jan/09/are-performance-enhancing-drugs-killing-integrity-fgc-tournaments/) and it got me thinking: Does Adderall or any type of AD(H)D medication give the player an unfair advantage over those who don't use it?
No it doesn't all it does is speed you up. It doesn't give u focus. If anything I think it would hurt u the up and down. Take it from someone who has taken everything in book we I was younger.
Yes, it gives them a better level of focus, but does that necessarily translate to them being able to outplay their opponent? Does it remove the skill gap? I don't think that it does. I don't really feel that a higher level of focus > overall skill.

Discuss.

 

[CAM THE SAGE]

No I don't. It speeds u up don't necessarily help u focus. If anything it could hurt u the ups and downs from it. Take it from someone who has taken everything in the book when I was younger.

 

[CAM THE SAGE]

I'm not wanting to discuss regulations or such. I'm specifically asking if taking Adderall or anything like it REMOVES THE SKILL GAP.

If I were to take like 100MG of Adderall, would I suddenly be able to beat the likes of Sonic Fox, A F0xy Grampa (I spelled it right, @PND_Ketchup ), etc? I say the answer is no.

 

[CAM THE SAGE]

No u would be dying

 

[Doombawkz]

Just because it doesn't let you beat SonicFox doesn't mean that it's not an unfair advantage. If I wore flippers in an olypmic swimming event I know I'd still lose, that doesn't mean it wasn't an unfair advantage, it means they outclassed my scrubby ass heavily.

Yes, these drugs DO give you an advantage, that much is pure fact. These professional gamers aren't risking their careers and sponsorships over a placebo. They might have different levels of effectiveness on different people, and different competitors will see different returns for taking it, but at the end of the day it's undeniably an advantage. The only real question left is "is it an unfair one?". And I think if you have to resort to finding a means to access prescription drugs to match the advantages another player is stepping in the ring with, than that question is pretty self-explanatory.




EDIT: just voted on the poll. Holy shit I'm done. Not even half of you said yes. This fucking community man

Flippers make you slower in water, just fyi. They're used to compensate for weak leg strength by adding propulsion, but for someone fully capable of swimming (and especially at an olympic level) they create water turbulence which slows you down because they generate small vacuum air pockets behind you, pulling you back slightly. Likewise they are weighty and not hydrodynamic, wherein swimmers shave every hair off of their body to remove as much unnecessary drag as possible. Bad example is bad.

There is as much advantage in taking Adderall as there is in using yellow-tinted glasses, or choosing a red-colored costume. I hate to break it to you, but in doses that would actually benefit you in any way, you can achieve the same amount of "focus addition" through multiple other ways with less side effects. The idea that adderall is effective is in the regard that no other alternative is available. Likewise, it functions as a medicine first and a performance enhancer last, so you're just as likely to develop anxiety and compulsiveness (both negative when playing a fighting game) as you are to gaining some kind of huge insight.

The idea that you can stack all of these bonuses and gain some huge effect like Bane's venom levels is incorrect at its base, the human mind and body aren't geared to simply keep getting juiced, they have upwards limits. If you were to get sound-proofing headphones, yellow tint glasses, pick a red character, pick the left side, warm your hands slightly before the match, eat a good breakfast with good nutrients, take a vitamin suppliment in the middle of the day, abstain from sugar or other things that cause crashes, work out decently well, and take Adderall, you aren't suddenly going to become some kind of a god because you've reached the pinnacle of all of these things.

In reality, I could eat an apple before my match. I would gain, naturally, as much benefit to my focus as I would taking a dose of Adderall. I could do ten push-ups and have a light conversation with a good friend and have as much focus gain as taking Adderall. I could hug someone for 7 seconds and drink a cup of water before the match and would gain as much focus as taking Adderall. Even if I did these things AND took Adderall, I'm not suddenly getting 2x bonus multipliers on my focus abilities. I would wager, with almost complete certainty, that a player who has the basic equipment (sound-proofing headphones, people they know at the competition, and water) would gain next to no actual benefit from taking Adderall, at least none that would help him/her during the match to overcome any player of any higher quality than themselves, or even on equal standing.

Does it provide an advantage? Only, and I do mean only, if literally no one packed anything else and one person happened to score some. Then yes, they would naturally be the best in a room full of people who don't know eachother, in the middle of the desert, none of which are wearing headphones or glasses, and all of which are playing within proximity to a jet engine.

 

[Eldriken]

Wow. ONLY this community would have this debate.





Just because it doesn't let you beat SonicFox doesn't mean that it's not an unfair advantage. If I wore flippers in an olypmic swimming event I know I'd still lose, that doesn't mean it wasn't an unfair advantage, it means they outclassed my scrubby ass heavily.

Yes, these drugs DO give you an advantage, that much is pure fact. These professional gamers aren't risking their careers and sponsorships over a placebo. They might have different levels of effectiveness on different people, and different competitors will see different returns for taking it, but at the end of the day it's undeniably an advantage. The only real question left is "is it an unfair one?". And I think if you have to resort to finding a means to access prescription drugs to match the advantages another player is stepping in the ring with, than that question is pretty self-explanatory.




EDIT: just voted on the poll. Holy shit I'm done. Not even half of you said yes. This fucking community man

So, there's a problem with this community because they have differing opinions on this matter? And this community is the problem? Come on, man.

I think some of the people in this thread that are commenting have no idea what they're talking about, much less have ever taken Adderall or anything like it.

 

[JesterSMX]

1. ADHD is a myth

2. Adderall is cheaper than redbull

3. If you said no to this poll you are wrong

Adderall absolutely enhances a player's ability. It won't make a bad player good but it will make a good player really good.

 

[God Confirm]

Flippers make you slower in water, just fyi. They're used to compensate for weak leg strength by adding propulsion, but for someone fully capable of swimming (and especially at an olympic level) they create water turbulence which slows you down because they generate small vacuum air pockets behind you, pulling you back slightly. Likewise they are weighty and not hydrodynamic, wherein swimmers shave every hair off of their body to remove as much unnecessary drag as possible. Bad example is bad.

There is as much advantage in taking Adderall as there is in using yellow-tinted glasses, or choosing a red-colored costume. I hate to break it to you, but in doses that would actually benefit you in any way, you can achieve the same amount of "focus addition" through multiple other ways with less side effects. The idea that adderall is effective is in the regard that no other alternative is available. Likewise, it functions as a medicine first and a performance enhancer last, so you're just as likely to develop anxiety and compulsiveness (both negative when playing a fighting game) as you are to gaining some kind of huge insight.

The idea that you can stack all of these bonuses and gain some huge effect like Bane's venom levels is incorrect at its base, the human mind and body aren't geared to simply keep getting juiced, they have upwards limits. If you were to get sound-proofing headphones, yellow tint glasses, pick a red character, pick the left side, warm your hands slightly before the match, eat a good breakfast with good nutrients, take a vitamin suppliment in the middle of the day, abstain from sugar or other things that cause crashes, work out decently well, and take Adderall, you aren't suddenly going to become some kind of a god because you've reached the pinnacle of all of these things.

In reality, I could eat an apple before my match. I would gain, naturally, as much benefit to my focus as I would taking a dose of Adderall. I could do ten push-ups and have a light conversation with a good friend and have as much focus gain as taking Adderall. I could hug someone for 7 seconds and drink a cup of water before the match and would gain as much focus as taking Adderall. Even if I did these things AND took Adderall, I'm not suddenly getting 2x bonus multipliers on my focus abilities. I would wager, with almost complete certainty, that a player who has the basic equipment (sound-proofing headphones, people they know at the competition, and water) would gain next to no actual benefit from taking Adderall, at least none that would help him/her during the match to overcome any player of any higher quality than themselves, or even on equal standing.

Does it provide an advantage? Only, and I do mean only, if literally no one packed anything else and one person happened to score some. Then yes, they would naturally be the best in a room full of people who don't know eachother, in the middle of the desert, none of which are wearing headphones or glasses, and all of which are playing within proximity to a jet engine.

Ok so I know nothing about competitive swimming, but needing a paragraph to picking a part a technicality is not a very good response. Substitute flippers for "rocket propelled kickboard" if the need be, or allowing a tennis player to serve hackey sacks instead of tennis balls at their opponent, or some dumb shit like that. It won't secure your victory, it's still an unfair advantage, I'm sure you understand quite clearly what it is that I'm saying.

As for the rest of it, I don't get what you are trying to say, or why it isn't clear after 3 and a half paragraphs explaining it. Maybe I'm slow today, but are you saying adderall is a complete placebo? A drug prescribed and designed to improve your focus? Let's see your qualifications doctor, otherwise I'm going to take the side of science instead of conspiracy theory's

 

[EntropicByDesign]

If its banned, then a wholllllllle slew of players willing to game the system will do so. All it takes is a 'sympathetic' doctor to say 'Ohh you have ADHD, here' and now you can test positive till the cows come home and be fine.

My actual opinions I'll keep to myself, but I see some pretty funny and uninformed anti-drug gibberish in here.

 

[God Confirm]

So, there's a problem with this community because they have differing opinions on this matter? And this community is the problem? Come on, man.

I think some of the people in this thread that are commenting have no idea what they're talking about, much less have ever taken Adderall or anything like it.

I'm saying it's not a coincidence that out of so many competitive communities out there, that this is literally the only one I've seen to even have such a debate on whether the advantage is actually unfair. You can take that however you want, just an observation.

 

[Rearawt]

I'm saying it's not a coincidence that out of so many competitive communities out there, that this is literally the only one I've seen to even have such a debate on whether the advantage is unfair. You can take that however you want.

Did you even read the OP?

I saw this thread on EventHubs (http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2016/...cing-drugs-killing-integrity-fgc-tournaments/) and it got me thinking:

 

[Rearawt]

1. ADHD is a myth

You seem informed.

 

[Doombawkz]

1. ADHD is a myth

2. Adderall is cheaper than redbull

3. If you said no to this poll you are wrong

Adderall absolutely enhances a player's ability. It won't make a bad player good but it will make a good player really good.

1. Medical and psychological science disagrees with you on that one.

2. Average street price for Adderall - $6-8 a pill
Average street price for bulk Adderall - $4-6 a pill
16 oz can of redbull - $3.27

3. Medical and psychological science disagrees with you on that one.

Google the term "diminishing returns" and then consider every single measure a professional gamer undergoes in order to keep focus, then after doing so consider how much actual effect taking adderall would give someone when accounting for the real risk of negative effects which would make doing so a disadvantage. When you weigh the two, its clear that Adderall is a bigger liability than any advantage it could hope to bring.

Ok so I know nothing about competitive swimming, but needing a paragraph to picking a part a technicality is not a very good response. Substitute flippers for "rocket propelled kickboard" if the need be, or allowing a tennis player to serve hackey sacks instead of tennis balls at their opponent, or some dumb shit like that. It won't secure your victory, it's still an unfair advantage, I'm sure you understand quite clearly what it is that I'm saying.

As for the rest of it, I don't get what you are trying to say, or why it isn't clear after 3 and a half paragraphs explaining it. Maybe I'm slow today, but are you saying adderall is a complete placebo? A drug prescribed and designed to improve your focus? Let's see your qualifications doctor, otherwise I'm going to take the side of science instead of conspiracy theory's

It was a short paragraph, but you're saying what if you gave yourself a huge advantage in those fields of competition. I'm regrettably informing you that Adderall's benefit would be the equivalent of you shaving off 5 more hairs than the next guy, or in the case of tennis if the wind was blowing 3mph in any direction. Basically its the difference between wearing tube socks and ankle socks.

I'm saying that Adderall is given to people, and it works for those who need it because its designed to. For people who don't need it, and take measures to increase their focus anyways, its effects are so far diminished that to assume that someone with ADHD taking the pill to focus in a classroom, and someone with gear designed to focus them and having no issues with the act are getting the same benefit... You don't need to be a doctor to know that it doesn't work that way.

So in this specific situation, of someone taking it whom has already prepared themselves to focus through multiple avenues, with no prior issue focusing, and an aptitude for taking in the medium to which they are presented, then yes, it might as well be a placebo. If GGA Dizzy took Adderall and didn't have any ADHD and had his gear on, he is no more likely to beat sonicfox in a set than if he took a flintstones vitamin (in fact, he would be less likely to do so). Now if he sat in a testing hall and didn't have any gear on? Yeah, he would get something out of it.

To give you a tl;dr: Medicine is balanced and created to specifically cater to individuals and specific problems. The drug IS intended to enhance focus, but only within individuals whose brain chemistry would allow for its effect to take place, and in settings and situations where it can exist as the only suppliment. For people who don't need the pill, and in settings where its not the only suppliment, its effect is reduced to such a degree that taking it is as effective as doing literally almost anything else that stimulates your brain in any positive way.

 

[Mikemetroid]

No, fighting games don't really benefit from addy. Too much to think about. Can overlap in your own thoughts. Shooting games/MOBAs though are quite rediculous because your ability to multitask will be rewarded. Unlike FGs where you just feel like youre playing well.

 

[God Confirm]

Did you even read the OP?

Isn't that just another part of the fighting game community? Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't know shit about event hubs plus it doesn't look like a real debate over there anyway

1. Medical and psychological science disagrees with you on that one.

2. Average street price for Adderall - $6-8 a pill
Average street price for bulk Adderall - $4-6 a pill
16 oz can of redbull - $3.27

3. Medical and psychological science disagrees with you on that one.

Google the term "diminishing returns" and then consider every single measure a professional gamer undergoes in order to keep focus, then after doing so consider how much actual effect taking adderall would give someone when accounting for the real risk of negative effects which would make doing so a disadvantage. When you weigh the two, its clear that Adderall is a bigger liability than any advantage it could hope to bring.



It was a short paragraph, but you're saying what if you gave yourself a huge advantage in those fields of competition. I'm regrettably informing you that Adderall's benefit would be the equivalent of you shaving off 5 more hairs than the next guy, or in the case of tennis if the wind was blowing 3mph in any direction. Basically its the difference between wearing tube socks and ankle socks.

I'm saying that Adderall is given to people, and it works for those who need it because its designed to. For people who don't need it, and take measures to increase their focus anyways, its effects are so far diminished that to assume that someone with ADHD taking the pill to focus in a classroom, and someone with gear designed to focus them and having no issues with the act are getting the same benefit... You don't need to be a doctor to know that it doesn't work that way.

So in this specific situation, of someone taking it whom has already prepared themselves to focus through multiple avenues, with no prior issue focusing, and an aptitude for taking in the medium to which they are presented, then yes, it might as well be a placebo. If GGA Dizzy took Adderall and didn't have any ADHD and had his gear on, he is no more likely to beat sonicfox in a set than if he took a flintstones vitamin (in fact, he would be less likely to do so). Now if he sat in a testing hall and didn't have any gear on? Yeah, he would get something out of it.

Oh. That makes more sense. My apologies sir I really didn't understand what you were saying at first.

As someone who was on Ritalin as a youngster I know first hand the real effects it has, and I don't think it's too far from adderall. That being said I wouldn't have any idea how it effects someone not prescribed it. I can't imagine it not having any effect on them at all however but that's just my speculation, could you school me some more and share some sources on that?

 

[JesterSMX]

You seem informed.

Should've said ADHD is a joke. Anyone can get a prescription because there is no test to determine if someone "needs" it. Blah blah my lack of focus is interfering with my life blah blah. That's all you need to say.

 

[JesterSMX]

1. Medical and psychological science disagrees with you on that one.

2. Average street price for Adderall - $6-8 a pill
Average street price for bulk Adderall - $4-6 a pill
16 oz can of redbull - $3.27

3. Medical and psychological science disagrees with you on that one.

Google the term "diminishing returns" and then consider every single measure a professional gamer undergoes in order to keep focus, then after doing so consider how much actual effect taking adderall would give someone when accounting for the real risk of negative effects which would make doing so a disadvantage. When you weigh the two, its clear that Adderall is a bigger liability than any advantage it could hope to bring.



It was a short paragraph, but you're saying what if you gave yourself a huge advantage in those fields of competition. I'm regrettably informing you that Adderall's benefit would be the equivalent of you shaving off 5 more hairs than the next guy, or in the case of tennis if the wind was blowing 3mph in any direction. Basically its the difference between wearing tube socks and ankle socks.

I'm saying that Adderall is given to people, and it works for those who need it because its designed to. For people who don't need it, and take measures to increase their focus anyways, its effects are so far diminished that to assume that someone with ADHD taking the pill to focus in a classroom, and someone with gear designed to focus them and having no issues with the act are getting the same benefit... You don't need to be a doctor to know that it doesn't work that way.

So in this specific situation, of someone taking it whom has already prepared themselves to focus through multiple avenues, with no prior issue focusing, and an aptitude for taking in the medium to which they are presented, then yes, it might as well be a placebo. If GGA Dizzy took Adderall and didn't have any ADHD and had his gear on, he is no more likely to beat sonicfox in a set than if he took a flintstones vitamin (in fact, he would be less likely to do so). Now if he sat in a testing hall and didn't have any gear on? Yeah, he would get something out of it.

To give you a tl;dr: Medicine is balanced and created to specifically cater to individuals and specific problems. The drug IS intended to enhance focus, but only within individuals whose brain chemistry would allow for its effect to take place, and in settings and situations where it can exist as the only suppliment. For people who don't need the pill, and in settings where its not the only suppliment, its effect is reduced to such a degree that taking it is as effective as doing literally almost anything else that stimulates your brain in any positive way.

How do you really feel? Rant much? You're over paying and you obviously voted no. Please refer to my 3rd point...

3. If you said no to this poll you are wrong

 

[Marinjuana]

"I could of totally 10-0'd this guy if he wasn't on adderall"

 

[Doombawkz]

Isn't that just another part of the fighting game community? Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't know shit about event hubs plus it doesn't look like a real debate over there anyway

Oh. That makes more sense. My apologies sir I really didn't understand what you were saying at first.

As someone who was on Ritalin as a youngster I know first hand the real effects it has, and I don't think it's too far from adderall. That being said I wouldn't have any idea how it effects someone not prescribed it. I can't imagine it not having any effect on them at all however but that's just my speculation, could you school me some more and share some sources on that?

People don't usually do tests on people who don't need drugs, its kinda illegal within the medical community because of the negative side effects included which can elevate to full on psychosis.
Likewise the situation we are describing is incredibly niche since people who take Adderall from street vendors are people looking to increase focus and memory on tests, in which they are in a quiet setting with very static stimuli.
People in the fighting community who would be taking it are in entirely different scenarios where there is rapidly changing stimulus, and measures taken to increase focus as it is.

If we assumed, and this is taking a large leap, that Adderall DID enhance focus in these scenarios to a point of being beneficial, then you would run into a whole slew of new problems, such as stimulus overload, misfiring synapses, an overproduction of dopamine (which is bad), and so on. Adderall is used to give people the ability to work through tedium and maintain focus. This is stuff like studying or working in an environment where the mind would otherwise shift into cruise control. For people with ADHD, obviously this doesn't occur because their minds are never in cruise control. It brings them down, it brings people without ADHD up.

Now if someone had taken it and say... went and played Touhou (bullet hell). That person would probably be worse off because their bodies aren't made to focus on that many things at once. Focus is not the ability to take in an entire picture easier, but to see parts of the picture clearer. If you zoom out your camera, often it won't be in focus. If you zoom it in, you lose parts of the background but the focus increases. Our eyes work in a similar manner, while they can skim, often things will get put by the wayside. If they focus, however, they focus on one thing to gain clarity onto it. This is why we have things like peripheral vision, so we aren't just tunnel visioning everything.

I'm guessing you've probably at some point seen a badly done home video where someone moves with the camera too much, or walks with it in hand and the video has that swift movement of background. This is because the camera isn't capable of maintaining focus when moved at such a speed. This can commonly be referred to as "blur", as it were. Such a thing can also happen if a camera is set to say... focus in on a face, but then is met with multiple faces. As each face enters the focus threshold, the camera has to readjust. You can see this from the common camera phone, as when its used to focus in on just one person it does so almost instantly, but when met with multiple people or people in motion, it takes considerably longer.

The same will occur with your eyes if you take something that enhances your focus beyond its normal accustomed means. Your eyes will actually have more issues focusing in our situation with the gamers because your eyes will have to take in multiple objects and such on the screen, all of which are moving and constantly changing. The reason gamers function well in their medium is the ability to skim and react, our ability to catalyze whats on the screen and put it into short and sweet responses. See the opponent throw a fan? React. See the opponent Jump? React. We can both keep track of our positions and the opponent's positions, and both actions, because we have the ability to not focus but to do quite the opposite: To zoom out and use the bigger, less clear picture. This is because we don't need ALL of the information we take in, much like when you read a sentence and and your mind automatically discounts the additional "and" within it because it deems it as unnecessary information. What divides players is their ability to garner more information without having to devote focus to it.

Sooo to give you another tl;dr: The situation doesn't have direct sources, so we have to assume the standard medical situations that would apply. This includes overstimulation, which is negative for two reasons:
1) It causes gamers to react slower because they have to process much more than necessary
2) Focus isn't what makes great players, its the ability to gain information and react without devoting focus to unnecessary details.

It affects people who use it in static environments to pull their minds out of cruise control. For someone whose mind is already not IN cruise control due to their situation, and doesn't have a medical disposition to ADHD, it makes their mind even more geared, which minds are not made to do. Giving someone Adderall while they are taking in multiple stimulus in rapid succession is essentially the same ordeal as giving someone with ADHD too much sugar.

Thats assuming it functions fully and as intended for every individual with no negative side effect. It doesn't, though, because when used in conjunction with every other factor involved and given different dispositions towards it, its effect is minor at best in these situations and can be replicated by other activities.

How do you really feel? Rant much? You're over paying and you obviously voted no. Please refer to my 3rd point...

3. If you said no to this poll you are wrong

Actually thats pretty standard rate, unless you're referring to the redbull in which case yeah, you can buy a 12oz for a dollar where I live so its actually even CHEAPER than my example.

Your 3rd point isn't a point, by the by, its a stance and a poorly supported one at that. If you can't provide substantial evidence towards it, and if its not backed enough to maintain its existence as a essential detail within the discussion, then you're missing the "point" of what a point is.

 

[JesterSMX]

I'm not going to read any of your essay or argue with you anymore. You see it your way and I see it mine. Just know that the way you see it is wrong.

 

[Doombawkz]

I'm not going to read any of your essay or argue with you anymore. You see it your way and I see it mine. Just know that the way you see it is wrong.

Your part of it is the three sentences at the bottom.
If you can't focus for that long, you should look into getting some Adderall.