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(Discussion) Custom Variations and tournament play.

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haketh

haketh

Champion
I’m planning on going hard on MK11 offline primarily, I don’t know what our ruleset is gonna be at NWM but for Weeklies/Monthlies I wanna push for us to use Customs for a bit. No way to know what it’s like offline if no ones trying stuff offline.
 
K

kcd117

Kombatant
SaltShaker said:
@ForPeopleDoingCompetitivePlay

Again, I love customs, prefer it, but how is it feasible. We already know how different specials can make a MU. Take this scenario-

MKX is custom. Your opponent selects Quan Chi. There is a vast difference in how Sorcerer and Summoner play. Yet with custom, your opponent can select abilities to make builds like one or the other. Your character has some abilities strong against Sorcerer tools, and some strong against Summoner tools, but not both equally. You pick abilities strong against Sorcerer, your opponent picks Summoner. What do you do? Do you say "well I'll just not change my abilities and play a harder MU"? If you do change them, what's to stop your opponent from changing his, and then a back and forth? If it's hidden, are you really ok with not knowing if you're facing the Sorcerer Quan or the Summoner Quan until the pre-match loading screen? Now apply this logic to MK11.

This is what I want someone who will invest tournament time in the game while also supporting custom to answer.
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I fail to see how abilities counter picking would be any different than variation counter picking.

I mean, let’s say I have to play u in tourny, and you are playing Skarlet and I’m playing Jade. I pick the Projectile based variation and you see it and pick the teleport variation, and then I see that and change to the pole vault variation, and you see that and change to your keep away based variation, and I see that and go back to the Projectile variation... I get that this is a problem due to time issues and logistics, what I don’t get is how is this suddenly not a problem with preset variations.

As ridiculous as it sounds, the only way to really solve this If it turns out to be a huge issue (it has never been and probably will not be) is a coin flip.

And on a side note, believing that abilities counter picking will be a thing and also believing that characters will have no variety bc everyone is just gonna use the same thing all the time is extremely contradictory.
 
LDA_DIgi

LDA_DIgi

A changed man...or shokan master lol.
If nrs presents enough presey variations that cover ALL character's abilities, then id be somewhat "ok" with using preset variations for competitive play.

But if that doesn't happen and nrs has implemented ways to quickly and conveniently set up abilities/kustom variations at the character select screen....then im 100% for kustom variations in TOURNAMENT play
 
pure.Wasted

pure.Wasted

'ello baby, did you miss me?
PLAYING TO WIN said:
I will do my best to be nice unlike you.
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I didn't feel that I was being particularly unpleasant, so I'm sorry for that.

This comment outs you as a casual who does not understand the tournament scene nor respect it. If your idea of balancing is both players not knowing what the other is using then you are one of the ones who just want a train wreck for viewers sake. You have clearly never been in a high pressure tournament situation let alone a qualifier top 8 placer match.
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This comment outs you as a follower of only one (really fucking weird) esport scene to the exclusion of others that do, in fact, function very differently, and do, in fact, ROUTINELY rely on players improvising in the face of unknowns.

#1 esport last year - DOTA 2, where you have absolutely no way of knowing what abilities and items (i.e. MK variation) your enemies will choose throughout the match, and you simply have to adapt as you see them.

#2 esport last year - CS:GO, where you have absolutely no way of knowing what guns and items (i.e. MK variation) your enemies will choose at the start of every round, and you simply have to adapt as you see them.

# esport last year - Fortnite, where you have absolutely no way of knowing fucking ANYTHING. Not where your enemies are, not what items they have, not if they're playing aggro or defense, nothing at all.

#4 esport last year - League, same as DOTA.

#5 esport last year - PUBG, same as Fortnite.

#6 esport last year - Overwatch, where you have absolutely no way of knowing what CHARACTERS the enemy team will pick upon match start, and although you're free to swap at any time to counter theirs when you see them, this does put you at a disadvantage, and there's no guarantee that by the time you swap characters, the enemy team hasn't as well. You also don't know when the enemy team has their most powerful abilities (Fatal Blows) available, and it's on you to estimate when, multiple times every single match, multiple matches every single series, and to change your play accordingly.

#7 esport last year - Heroes of the Storm, same as DOTA and League.

#8 esport last year - Hearthstone, where you have absolutely no way of knowing what exact cards are in your opponent's deck at any time. You might have a general idea of what his gameplan will be, but you will not know if he put in some very specific tech cards specifically to try to predict and counter your plays.

#9 esport last year - StarCraft 2, the ultimate game of misinformation. You have absolutely no way of knowing anything in the match except your opponent's race. Their entire strategy (and what it allows them to do) is unknown unless you properly scout throughout the match, which is not easy. They might be playing an all-in Bunker rush that you have to defend against or die, or they might be playing a greedy fast expansion that you have to destroy immediately or die 10 minutes from now, or they might be rushing Banshees so you have to defend against in a completely different way from a Bunker rush or die. Even if you do everything in your power to scout, you could still not find out the information until it's way too late. And then, like in a FG, knowing is half the battle - you also have to execute your defense/attack/whatever.

Literally every single esport on that list - esports that are much more successful than any FG - demands that pros routinely put up with the challenge of not having perfect information at all times, to the extent that in some games you're playing almost completely in the dark about everything, and it's completely on you as a player (and pro) to find all that information out and react properly.
 
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Law Hero

Law Hero

There is a head on a pole behind you
JGillette

JGillette

My thirst for knowledge cannot be quenched
Then what’s the point of advertising an “improved” version of a system which was introduced in the previous installment if you are not going to allow players to have %100 access to it? I guess their “creativity” has reached its boundaries
 
dribirut

dribirut

BLAK FELOW
PLAYING TO WIN said:
You make a good point but you are not considering all the factors here. I know you are a good player bc we played a lot. Consider character selection/counter picking. Im going to watch you pick a broken teleport then I will unselect jades air projectile for pole vault. you then realize the zoning wont be an issue so you unselect teleport. even if you do blind picks, after the first match it will turn into a ability counter pick shit show. Consider balance and a move like gutting. Consider that top players will likely end up on one loadout. I would argue in mkx almost every character had 2 tournament viable variations like shinnok with boner (lol) shaper and imposter. Imagine bone shaper with imposters teleport? all i had to do was give up bone shapers ground pound?!?

I do not have time to make all of my points but consider your point beyond just that one my man!
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I just dont see how there is any difference between this scenario and having people counter pick with a different variation/ character. Also whats the differenc between picking the best special/load out vs picking the best variation?

On top of that, I do not think its as clear cut as you think. For example, I saw many top players using the lunge command grab as opposed to the gutted. Biohazard and grr who i think was the best baraka throughout the beta used the lunge instead. Also, kabal is another great example of a large variety of custom buildouts being used.
 
GLoRToR

GLoRToR

Positive Poster!
dribirut said:
what a waste of an opportunity to create something truly special...
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While I see how people could find this appealing, personally I'm glad we're going this way.

Balancing every single possible combination would mean the game would be in beta until every character is added and then some, until every issue is cleared out. We'd be waiting two years more for this single game.
 
Peckapowa

Peckapowa

Champion
PLAYING TO WIN said:
MK11 has been very secretive about tournament standards concerning ability moves despite numerous requests in multiple media outlets asking for clarification. Their silence can only mean two things listed below. When considering the tournament scene, there are some very serious questions that need answered if full customization will be allowed.

Nertherrealm's silence on this matter can only mean:
  • they are not sure
  • they are getting ready to present at a c2e2 type event of have something specifically planned for its rollout
Regardless of netherrealm's plans, there are a large amount of factors to consider. I will lay these out for discussion.

  • If customization is allowed, how will you know what moves your opponent picked? When you are at a major and fighting in your 7th set of the day and are in a game five, I PROMISE you WILL NOT remember what moves they picked. If this is indeed the route NRS chooses then the icons in the ability selection menu will need to be on the screen at all times during game play.
  • Many people are saying that full customization will add to the depth of the game and longevity. This is not accurate. The very talented top players will quickly decipher the best selection and moves sets for a character. There are moves that are so strong that you will almost have to pick it (i.e. Skarlet Siphon or Baraka launching stab move). Allowing full customization will actually showcase less moves on the main tournament stages as top players will be using one, maybe two variations.
  • Tournament logistics and counter pick issue. Player Alpha is fighting player Beta. A wins, B goes to edit abilities to counter A's zoning, B wins, A goes and picks something that counters player B's move set, et cetera et cetera. Time, viewer ease and a Paper, Rock, Scissors mentality that will be worse than Injustice 2 at its peak.
  • Balance will be nearly impossible without making moves either broken or useless. With each character having what appears to be 7-12 abilities they need to compliment each other appropriately. This will only be achieved in an MKX variation style system. Beta Kabal is the perfect example of a character being potentially broken by putting together the right moves. Take the restand or the jump saw away and the character begins to have clear deficits as every character in a fighting game should.
  • The player should be number one when considering the standards. Full customization might be a good thing for viewers but it will take away from the tournament players experience. I will argue full customization will not be good for viewers because they will be only seeing one version of each character. I trust Paulo and NRS to give us several variations of a character like MKX that will be viable at a tournament level. This will also give NRS more freedom to make some moves strong or weaker depending on its variation. Something that will not be possible with full customization.
@General M2Dave comment about blind picks. How would that work lol.
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1. In regards to customization, they need to show a loading screen where the abilities could be seen. This is solvable but requires NRS effort. You need to know what moves your opponent has, it rewards hard work on matchups and study of the game.

2. I believe full customization will add some depth iand longevity - i think your point about top players quickly deciphering the best variation isn't really valid, for a few reasons. i do agree probably a solid percentage of the meta fleshed out quickly and quite a few characters will have one combination which is used most of the time.
-The customization allows you to make minor tweaks or even fully change playstyles to help with a matchup. That makes tournament play more exciting - if scorpion player x runs misery blade flamethrower in one matchup and wins one round- a player might make a small innovation and change to a better punishing move for ex flamethrower or vice versa - a scorpion may realize that his useless fireball might be useful for full screen pressure in the matchup. rather than the flamethrower. That's interesting to me.
-Metas take a while to develop in fighting games - there may be combinations or styles that people discover down the road which enables them to cause meta shifts or completely blow up certain matchups. Kung lao might dominate the meta at one point but someone realizes raiden with a certain set of moves really harms his options, that might not be available in a normal variation setting.
-While there might be one meta move like misery blade - there's the still the opportunity for other moves to be selected to supplement people's playstyles with that character then still be effective. The same argument you make for normal variations adding more depth can be used against it because the same people will pick the "go to" variation without any change at all. The custom variation system has a better chance to shift "one of the moves.

I don't see many skarlets using blood flow and TP which i think can be an effective meta style in many matchups down the road. TP allowing you to switch sides and avoid being cornered is a really interesting thing.

3. Tournament logistics is a big question mark. I've heard the argument it would take "way too much time" but i feel that is selling the argument short and is a defeatist mentality. Once again this is a situation where we would be dependent on NRS adding mechanics to the game. People need a quick select option for the 3 points worth of moves - it's similar time as a button check and wouldn't be to bad. The biggest problem that arises is the counter-pick situation. Players could be in a situation where they wait for their opponent to pick moves so they can pick moves to counter that persons moves and vice versa. This leads to a stalemate a character select. I guess the solution would be some sort of blind pick of moves for the first match - the question is will the person who picks 2nd at that point be able to see the persons moves?? Ideally you would see the moves during stage select after both players have locked in and confirmed their choice. Hidden cursor doesn't solve this problem because you have to see what moves you have to pick.

4. For balance i don't agree with you The points system is a nice thing, all the moves are in most of set variations anyways and so long as the moves on their own are somewhat properly valued by the points and investigated for being too "op". it'd be fine. No game will be perfectly balanced upon initial release, there will be shit that is too strong / too weak - it'll happen regardless of custom variations or not. Making an interesting game with many mechanics creates a better chance of balance issues and it's sacrifice you have to make. With the points system and hotfix abilities, like any other game nrs should be able to quell things.

-Now there is an increased chance there may be situations where certain move synergies cause overpowered or broken things to happen (infinites etc.) but i think that is overstated and so long as moves have gone through proper balancing measures (frame data, points, launch stun etc.) it shouldn't be drastic enough to create a real problem or large difference from non custom variations. I think the possibility for discovering synergies or players finding interesting combinations outways that added risk. NRS has done better this game sof ar and it seems their IQ has increased and their design is less poopoo.

Those are just some of my thoughts and it's really dependent on how NRS handles it. fingers crossed. - edit well looks like they pussed out
 
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DixieFlatline78

DixieFlatline78

Everyone Has A Path
I feel like a handul of characters at the base level are too bare bones the way they are right now to pick a preset variation. Theyll be way too specialized in one area and limited in all the others unless characters get some of those moves added as universal moves. There are also likely some situations where the preset variations dont include the actual best and most useful tools for that character.

The game is designed around custom variations already so why not play with them to see how the game turns out?
 
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