(Discussion) Custom Variations and tournament play.

[M2Dave]

Q: How do tournament organizers manage such a system?
A: Everything is organized now, isn't it?

Hardly.

What do you expect tournament organizers and referees to do? Do they walk around with notebook paper of the listed abilities for each player to confirm the blind picks at the beginning of the match? Besides, how would this system function in online tournaments? Who would enforce it? How would it be enforced? Any person who has ever set foot on an offline tournament knows that this method would be highly impractical because of the lack of time and staff.

Fortunately for the community, 16 Bit and Dizzy are two accomplished tournament players who are aware of what is practical and what is fantasy. I am confident they know what is best for tournaments. I predict NRS will announce three preset variation very soon and this discussion will finally be an issue of the past.

 

[OnlineSkunk]

Hardly.

What do you expect tournament organizers and referees to do? Do they walk around with notebook paper of the listed abilities for each player to confirm the blind picks at the beginning of the match? Besides, how would this system function in online tournaments? Who would enforce it? How would it be enforced? Any person who has ever set foot on an offline tournament knows that this method would be highly impractical because of the lack of time and staff.

Fortunately for the community, 16 Bit and Dizzy are two accomplished tournament players who are aware of what is practical and what is fantasy. I am confident they know what is best for tournaments. I predict NRS will announce three preset variation very soon and this discussion will finally be an issue of the past.

They can just flip a coin for the person who would choose first if either party feel like counter picking, for online tournament they can just make it so that you can see what you're picking but the other player can't when hidden selecting abilities.

Keep the questions coming Dave and Yes, I hope 16 Bit and Dizzy are reading this thread so that they know custom variations are possible and that it would make the game better as a whole.

 

[G11OST]

If large icons were showed during stage select that should take care of blind picks. Take care of memory problems as well.

Moves should be selected in character select screen, just have them in a list and click the ones that you will equip.

Balance seems easier when they can focus on 1 base character and the special moves seperately. They can nerf, buff, increase points, or deduct the moves as well as adjust the base. I feel it would be more difficult for them to try to balance 3+ variations, specially right now since all variations share the same base character. If one is tweaked it will effect another for better or worst.

Having customs also would make the matchup charts less concrete and more fluid. It would introduce layers of death. On one side, yes you would have to lab so much more, but to many that is also a plus side. Keeps fights more fresh snd viewership more interested.

But people will focus on certain moves? ... i feel that is better than focusing on a preset variation, i rather them nerf just a move than butchering a character.

I would love a mortal kombat game to get an expansion for once instead of a sequel. Having custom variations could lay the land for that.

I feel the NO to custom variation is just on a ban waggon. Really seems like NRS is thinking about implementing this, I think we should let them continue to raise the standard of fighting games and support them. If done correctly, imagine the endgame

 

[Zhidoreptiloid]

3 variations, no custom.
Baraka was designed for good poke character, but without midscreen combo and damage. With gutted his game design just crashed.
Kabal is ok if default variation (but he MUST have a gaps, like other characters and his FB must be reworked), but with custom loadout he have 50% (sic) damage combos with restand (!). Custom loadout just delete balance and broke such characters as baraka and kabal.
If you wanna mkx and marvel versus capcom unbalanced goofy shit - custom variations is your choise

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

I JUST WANT TO KNOW

I don't care if we get one or the other. But the dragging out telling us makes me worry the answer won't spark joy.

However, it could be that this beta was the test for exactly that. Maybe they're torn down the middle and leaving it in a way up to us to sway them.

As much as I'd love to add Killer Clot or Blood Sacrifice to O Negative, I could see how that would get real scary, real fast. And I wasn't nearly big enough on Injustice 2 to appreciate the scope and size of all the extra gear system stuff there was at work in that game. Not to mention being able to go Custom all the time would make the variations pretty redundant to begin with.

It'll all make sense when word comes out.

 

[Zhidoreptiloid]

2. You are just assuming a lot here and justifying your opinion based of beta balance. Regardless, you aren't mentioning how the same problem exists in preset variations.

No. Because all OP moves you can find only in custom loadout - gutted, restand and air hook, misery blade etc.
Custom move also destroy cons from characters with pros and cons (for example - baraka, he desgined with good buttons, but without good combo and damage on midscreen. "Gutted" just destroy that originally designed cons and broke character)

 

[Zhidoreptiloid]

My big problem with this is the default variations. They SUCK. I would rather not compete than be forced to use those.

Broken unbalanced autocarry loadout is much much better yeah. Press X to win mkx-style is much-much better yeah

 

[Marinjuana]

No. Because all OP moves you can find only in custom loadout - gutted, restand and air hook, misery blade etc.
Custom move also destroy cons from characters with pros and cons (for example - baraka, he desgined with good buttons, but without good combo and damage on midscreen. "Gutted" just destroy that originally designed cons and broke character)

I'm talking reality here bud

 

[Zhidoreptiloid]

I'm talking reality here bud

Proof me wrong or it's just ad hominem

 

[Marinjuana]

Proof me wrong or it's just ad hominem

The burden of proof is on you champ

 

[Zhidoreptiloid]

The burden of proof is on you champ

Ok then.
Paulo said in interview, that they will balanced moves in 3 variations, and, if they will make them balanced, MAYBE, they add other moves or make custom variations and will balance other custom only moves (non-standart variations moves, like gutted) .
Characters have about 10 custom moves. They balanced only standart. What does it means? That means, that most of custom move was maked only for check without any testing for balance, and they not ready to be used in competetive play, they made for casual fun. Example is gutted - baraka general design is "good normals with not combo midscreen" - cons and pros. "Gutted" just removes one of originally designed cons (because, that move making not for balance, not for competetive play, only for casual fun) and then, all asked for moves, which makes without any good brainstorm, moves just for check, and they just destroy characters, example - kabal with such synergy, because both moves - air hook and restand, they both designed for casual play.
And that is only 2 of 5 characters, which completely broken by custom variations. And we have 20 left.
If you wanna custom varitions and if you wanna balance, then NRS must delete most of these moves and leave only standart variation move - for scorpion that will be TP cancel, air throw, demon dash, death spin, etc. No gutted. No mysery blade. No kabal's restand.

 

[Marinjuana]

Ok then.
Paulo said in interview, that they will balanced moves in 3 variations, and, if they will make them balanced, MAYBE, they add other moves or make custom variations and will balance other custom only moves (non-standart variations moves, like gutted) .
Characters have about 10 custom moves. They balanced only standart. What does it means? That means, that most of custom move was maked only for check without any testing for balance, and they not ready to be used in competetive play, they made for casual fun. Example is gutted - baraka general design is "good normals with not combo midscreen" - cons and pros. "Gutted" just removes one of originally designed cons (because, that move making not for balance, not for competetive play, only for casual fun) and then, all asked for moves, which makes without any good brainstorm, moves just for check, and they just destroy characters, example - kabal with such synergy, because both moves - air hook and restand, they both designed for casual play.
And that is only 2 of 5 characters, which completely broken by custom variations. And we have 20 left.
If you wanna custom varitions and if you wanna balance, then NRS must delete most of these moves and leave only standart variation move - for scorpion that will be TP cancel, air throw, demon dash, death spin, etc. No gutted. No mysery blade. No kabal's restand.

To be honest dude I have trouble following your posts, but I think I get what you are saying. But I know what Paulo said, I'm advocating for kustom variations because I believe the game's depth will suffer without them and I think splitting the playerbase is terrible for the competitive scene.

I believe they have given themselves the infrastructure to balance these moves in a reasonable way, they have more options then just nerf/buff here. And I would rather take a less balanced game if it meant that there was more freedom of expression with characters and no more cool moves locked away to rot in casual gear mode. Maybe Misery Blade should be three slots, maybe gutted could take a damage nerf, you can make Kabal's restand conflict with the combo extender, etc. They gave themselves options. And having played with the kustom variations system already, it will never not feel dumbed down to go back to presets for MK11.

 

[Zhidoreptiloid]

To be honest dude I have trouble following your posts, but I think I get what you are saying.

My english is not good, sorry.
And one more thought to custom variation: the more custom moves we have, by than the more difficult system. More difficult system - more chances to error.
I think, 10 or more custom moves it too much for one character (at least, at the start of the game). I think, NRS can start custom moves in competetive only with moves from 3 standart variations, and, if all will be ok and balance will come, then they can add new custom moves little by little from the pool - scorpions fireballs, njp etc.
I think, 6-7 custom moves at the start on a character is not too hard, as 10-12, like now we have

 

[SaltShaker]

Q: how do I know which three moves you selected?
A: Players have the right to blind pick at the start of a round, that's how it works now and that's how they deal with counterpicking each other.

What do you mean that's how it works now? That's not how it works at all. I am for customs, but this is my biggest concern to lean back to variations. When you play offline at your locals or tourneys, that first game is vital. Here is an example of what can happen at locals or tourney-

--If my Character X has 10 abilities, and I am playing a guy using Character Y who has 10 abilities, the first thing we'll do is try to equip one that is tough for the opponent. The problem is if I select Ability (1), and my opponent is like "oh if you're using that I am selecting ability (3)". But if he's gonna use ability (3) then I want to use ability (6). But then etc etc etc.

I'm not gonna be sitting there agreeing to fight against a setup if I can make my MU better before the game, and I wouldn't expect my opponent to either. So the only solution is a form of blind picks. Think about that though. You've went to this tournament, spent your money, to face someone that picks a character that you have no idea what they are about to use against you. Is that really how you'd want to play? I know I'm not trying to have that happen to me.

I mean online yea it works a bit different, but offline I'm having a difficult time seeing how it can be implemented without issues even if I prefer it.

 

[OnlineSkunk]

What do you mean that's how it works now? That's not how it works at all. I am for customs, but this is my biggest concern to lean back to variations. When you play offline at your locals or tourneys, that first game is vital. Here is an example of what can happen at locals or tourney-

--If my Character X has 10 abilities, and I am playing a guy using Character Y who has 10 abilities, the first thing we'll do is try to equip one that is tough for the opponent. The problem is if I select Ability (1), and my opponent is like "oh if you're using that I am selecting ability (3)". But if he's gonna use ability (3) then I want to use ability (6). But then etc etc etc.

I'm not gonna be sitting there agreeing to fight against a setup if I can make my MU better before the game, and I wouldn't expect my opponent to either. So the only solution is a form of blind picks. Think about that though. You've went to this tournament, spent your money, to face someone that picks a character that you have no idea what they are about to use against you. Is that really how you'd want to play? I know I'm not trying to have that happen to me.

I mean online yea it works a bit different, but offline I'm having a difficult time seeing how it can be implemented without issues even if I prefer it.

I edited my post, reread my post. What I've proposed pretty much fixes every single concern people have asked about making custom variations the tournament standard. I don't want to repeat myself too much but before grabbing a coffee I'll take this opportunity to tell you that we don't even need a coin or a TO to flip a coin, you can just play ROCK, PAPER, SCISSOR with your opponent to decide who picks the character and abilities last, if I win you pick first. Hidden select it's a 50/50 too. Online tournament it's even easier.

My suggestions would not only address every concern people had but it'll make tournaments play out even faster than they currently do now.

 

[SaltShaker]

you can just play ROCK, PAPER, SCISSOR with your opponent to decide who picks the character and abilities last, if I win you pick first. Hidden select it's a 50/50 too.

There's a 0% chance I am traveling to the tourneys to have potential bad MUs decided on rock/paper/scissors. That's significantly worse than a standard counter-pick. I don't think you are understanding the magnitude of offline play.

 

[MrMiketastic]

I really enjoyed the custom variations in the beta, but I really hope they don't become a thing in ranked or tournament play. The idea of too many variables to consider here and there is pretty much on point. Imagine studying a matchup for x character used by x player and having all those strategies go out the window when he uses a completely different set?

A good way NRS could go about this was the way that they went about IJ2. Let the tourney variations stay in ranked and tournament mode, while the gear/custom stuff stays in casual/unranked play.

 

[Braindead]

• Many people are saying that full customization will add to the depth of the game and longevity. This is not accurate. The very talented top players will quickly decipher the best selection and moves sets for a character. There are moves that are so strong that you will almost have to pick it (i.e. Skarlet Siphon or Baraka launching stab move). Allowing full customization will actually showcase less moves on the main tournament stages as top players will be using one, maybe two variations.

• Tournament logistics and counter pick issue. Player Alpha is fighting player Beta. A wins, B goes to edit abilities to counter A's zoning, B wins, A goes and picks something that counters player B's move set, et cetera et cetera. Time, viewer ease and a Paper, Rock, Scissors mentality that will be worse than Injustice 2 at its peak.

Those two points sound mutually exclusive. You can't say kustom variations are bad because only one moveset will be used then say they're bad because many movesets will be used for counterpicking.

 

[Marinjuana]

I really enjoyed the custom variations in the beta, but I really hope they don't become a thing in ranked or tournament play. The idea of too many variables to consider here and there is pretty much on point. Imagine studying a matchup for x character used by x player and having all those strategies go out the window when he uses a completely different set?

A good way NRS could go about this was the way that they went about IJ2. Let the tourney variations stay in ranked and tournament mode, while the gear/custom stuff stays in casual/unranked play.

Personally I think more variables is better but I want to say that I don't think what they did in Injustice 2 was a good system. Not only did it really suck to have all of these cool moves be designed to never be used in competitive play, I think it hurt the flow of players from casual to competitive. It was two different games.

 

[Tony at Home]

I think players who don't intend to attend any offline events should stop dropping their strong opinions here.

 

[G11OST]

I really enjoyed the custom variations in the beta, but I really hope they don't become a thing in ranked or tournament play. The idea of too many variables to consider here and there is pretty much on point. Imagine studying a matchup for x character used by x player and having all those strategies go out the window when he uses a completely different set?

A good way NRS could go about this was the way that they went about IJ2. Let the tourney variations stay in ranked and tournament mode, while the gear/custom stuff stays in casual/unranked play.

Whats the different of X player using a different X preset.

So instead of a game of chest, people would rather play rock paper scissors cuz its easier?

Instead of X character playing X way, I think it would also be better overall if X character could play ABCXYZ way.

 

[IamBatface]

I’m pretty confident the three preset variations is what will be used for Tournaments and Ranked matches.

Ed Boon said himself in an interview with Angry Joe a few months back when explaining the custom variations “the game is going to come with three default variations which will be used for tournaments and all that stuff...” Not sure what the rules are as far as posting links but just search “Angry Joe Ed Boon” on YT and the quote is around the 7:50 mark.

I just don’t think they know what the variations will be and are still working on balancing them.

 

[OnlineSkunk]

There's a 0% chance I am traveling to the tourneys to have potential bad MUs decided on rock/paper/scissors. That's significantly worse than a standard counter-pick. I don't think you are understanding the magnitude of offline play.

I'm not quite following you, I think what you're saying it's you want to hidden select from the beginning to try to avoid getting countered in the first match. I believe you can still run into a bad MU when both player hidden select, if the other player doesn't hidden select then he clearly doesn't care. What I'm saying is that hidden select it's the same thing as asking your opponent before the match start or after they try to counter pick that you want to flip a coin or rock, paper, scissor. It's not different from hidden select and people do that all the time in current tournaments.

 

[Shark Tank]

I’m pretty confident the three preset variations is what will be used for Tournaments and Ranked matches.

Ed Boon said himself in an interview with Angry Joe a few months back when explaining the custom variations “the game is going to come with three default variations which will be used for tournaments and all that stuff...” Not sure what the rules are as far as posting links but just search “Angry Joe Ed Boon” on YT and the quote is around the 7:50 mark.

I just don’t think they know what the variations will be and are still working on balancing them.

Which is a scary thought since we're 3 weeks away, so the kombat kasts were really up in the air as far as tournament play or even if you just wanted to play ranked online. We knew what the variations were this time before MKX release. If that's the actual reason I'm not going to be surprised if there is imbalance jank or the 3 pre-set variations are really vanilla and basic.


EDIT: What the fuck is the big secret anyway? This is shit you decide way before you get to an alpha build. At this point they already know which path they are going to go, so why haven't they said like 3 months ago.

Here's another thought, they probably aren't going to retroactively tell us what the variations are for the characters whose kombat kasts are already finished. So we might not know who has what tools up until release.

 

[Charybdis]

I think players who don't intend to attend any offline events should stop dropping their strong opinions here.

Precisely. The Irish scene is more or less dead and my two jobs are the priority so it'll be online for me, where I'll use my custom made variations thank'ee very much. I've no dog in that race, though the preset variations seems the only fair solution to me.