Match-Up Discussion - Summoner Dink's Proposed Quan Chi Post-EVO changes

[I GOT HANDS]

Those of you saying that he would be op if he had a six frame d3 have never fought the D'Vorah MU as Quan, or the Tempest Lao mu, or the Dragonfire Liu Kang MU, or any other MU where you cannot poke out.

These are the same pinheads that thought MK9 Quan didn't need a six frame d1 because he had The Rune Trap.

It's very telling when MK9 Sky Drop is superior to MK X's in every way.

So you mention Tempest and Dvorah, two of the most OP characters in the game, and are upset because you character isn't quite on par with them?

What about the Goro, Takeda and Jason match up? How about trying to get your character level match ups with them if its "balance" you want and not just MORE buffs to one of the strongest characters in the game, simply because it benefits you? Your personal bias here is real

Its OK to have some match ups that arent even, thats the nature of the game. Don't like it, play a more well rounded character less polarized than Quan Chi, thats kinda his thing. Unless you are asking to remove an equal amount of offense for the defense he gains, which I don't see you doing. And even that is just going to make him more and more generic. QC is very unique. Everyone isn't saying don't buff him because they are "salty about losing to him", they are saying don't buff him supported by the legit reasoning that he is already strong as hell. We have no reason to want to make Quan Chi underpowered more so than any other character (as though he's going to be underpowered if left as is ), the only person with a personal stake in this argument is you, hence why it's so ridiculously one sided. You don't want balance, you want to plug the gaps that offset your incredibly strong character's incredibly strong offense, just to make losing with him even harder. Start enjoying the competitive nature and challenge of the game, instead of whining till NRS turns on easy mode.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

It's very telling when MK9 Sky Drop is superior to MK X's in every way.

This is excellent logic. Let's give him MK9's Skydrop. And then lets patch out everything new, and just completely turn him into MK9 version of Quan Chi, seeing as we are now balancing him in regards to MK9.

And in that same vein, Kung Lao doesn't get anywhere near as much on his Divekicks in MKX, so lets buff the shit out of his Divekick as well.



You take the good with the bad, he was balanced in MKX in regards to his abilities in MKX, not his abilities in MK9. Some elements of his gameplay are stronger, some elements weaker. He doesn't NEED an even stronger Sky Drop, look at how well he does without it.

 

[Rude]

This is excellent logic. Let's give him MK9's Skydrop. And then lets patch out everything new, and just completely turn him into MK9 version of Quan Chi, seeing as we are now balancing him in regards to MK9.

And in that same vein, Kung Lao doesn't get anywhere near as much on his Divekicks in MKX, so lets buff the shit out of his Divekick as well.



You take the good with the bad, he was balanced in MKX in regards to his abilities in MKX, not his abilities in MK9. Some elements of his gameplay are stronger, some elements weaker. He doesn't NEED an even stronger Sky Drop, look at how well he does without it.

You missed the point completely.

MK9 Sky Drop was an abysmally bad, horrendous move. Whiffing it was a death sentence 90% of the time.

And it's still vastly superior to it's MK X incarnation.

 

[Rude]

So you mention Tempest and Dvorah, two of the most OP characters in the game, and are upset because you character isn't quite on par with them?

What about the Goro, Takeda and Jason match up? How about trying to get your character level match ups with them if its "balance" you want and not just MORE buffs to one of the strongest characters in the game, simply because it benefits you? Your personal bias here is real

Its OK to have some match ups that arent even, thats the nature of the game. Don't like it, play a more well rounded character less polarized than Quan Chi, thats kinda his thing. Unless you are asking to remove an equal amount of offense for the defense he gains, which I don't see you doing. And even that is just going to make him more and more generic. QC is very unique. Everyone isn't saying don't buff him because they are "salty about losing to him", they are saying don't buff him supported by the legit reasoning that he is already strong as hell. We have no reason to want to make Quan Chi underpowered more so than any other character (as though he's going to be underpowered if left as is ), the only person with a personal stake in this argument is you, hence why it's so ridiculously one sided. You don't want balance, you want to plug the gaps that offset your incredibly strong character's incredibly strong offense, just to make losing with him even harder. Start enjoying the competitive nature and challenge of the game, instead of whining till NRS turns on easy mode.

Again, you're missing the point completely.

If you make the correct read vs an attack and use armor, you absorb a hit and get some kind of reward.

Sub's slide, as an example. He uses it on the right read, absorbs a hit, and knocks the opponent down.

Quan chi gets punished for making the right read simply by the opponent continuing whatever they were doing on knockdown.

No other armor move works like this. So armoring through an attack will still result in you getting knocked down into the same situation.

It's happened to be vs a lot more than just the characters i named.

A faster downpoke is beyond reasonable.

 

[Rude]

Again, I'm not talking about armor breaking.

I'm talking about getting hit out of the air after you've already went into the ground from armoring a move simply by the opponent continuing his string.

Sky Drop has practically NO priority.

 

[STRYKIE]

ITT: I'm not sure if I agree with the proposed ideas for changes, and I understand that there are characters/variations with lesser fledged tools that could be looked at (although after the Shinnok and Kitana communities pushed their luck too hard, I don't think it's unfathomable that NRS might want to ease off for a while before helping out some of these alleged hard-done by characters again), but it's not unreasonable that the only character in the game being subjected to what are essentially block-infinites might cause some unrest within their community. Especially when the variations tailored to giving Quan better defensive options are sometimes unable to get anything going either.

Yes his offense is humanely difficult to deal with, but his defense is also systematically impossible to work with in some cases.

I don't play Quan at all, and anyone saying this isn't a cause for concern needs to get a grip.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

I'm all for ironing out a character and making everything work as should, and making useless tools and strings have some sort of use

But to do so also means making that character stronger, the fact that this particular character does so well even without the improvements you are asking for, means he needs to have some things toned down a bit to offset it (while still remaining useful). This is how we keep him balanced as he's a well above average character as is, but he at least has defined holes in his game. We can't just plug em blindly

Yes his offense is humanely difficult to deal with, but his defense is also systematically impossible to work with in some cases.

That's.... kinda the point. So if we are gonna buff his defense we need to nerf his offense

 

[STRYKIE]

That's.... kinda the point. So if we are gonna buff his defense we need to nerf his offense

That's also the problem though, they're not in line with each other in the first place. His offense is doing it's job correctly, his defense isn't.

For the record I'm not ruling out any nerfs to at least his damage, but people are looking at this far too sentimentally.

 

[Zoidberg747]

That's also the problem though, they're not in line with each other in the first place. His offense is doing it's job correctly, his defense isn't.

For the record I'm not ruling out any nerfs to at least his damage, but people are looking at this far too sentimentally.

Just nerf his damage. He still has insane offense but it isnt nearly as scary because it does less damage. Then he can have his 7f poke lol.

 

[STB Shujinkydink]

So you mention Tempest and Dvorah, two of the most OP characters in the game, and are upset because you character isn't quite on par with them?

What about the Goro, Takeda and Jason match up? How about trying to get your character level match ups with them if its "balance" you want and not just MORE buffs to one of the strongest characters in the game, simply because it benefits you? Your personal bias here is real

Its OK to have some match ups that arent even, thats the nature of the game. Don't like it, play a more well rounded character less polarized than Quan Chi, thats kinda his thing. Unless you are asking to remove an equal amount of offense for the defense he gains, which I don't see you doing. And even that is just going to make him more and more generic. QC is very unique. Everyone isn't saying don't buff him because they are "salty about losing to him", they are saying don't buff him supported by the legit reasoning that he is already strong as hell. We have no reason to want to make Quan Chi underpowered more so than any other character (as though he's going to be underpowered if left as is ), the only person with a personal stake in this argument is you, hence why it's so ridiculously one sided. You don't want balance, you want to plug the gaps that offset your incredibly strong character's incredibly strong offense, just to make losing with him even harder. Start enjoying the competitive nature and challenge of the game, instead of whining till NRS turns on easy mode.

You're picking apart arguments to what tailors you. Yes dvorah and Kung Lao are hard mus. That's cool. I have options in those MUs. Liu kang and Tanya I don't. They just do whet they want as soon as they touch me, I don't get a chance to guess. Block infinites. That's not intended. They could nerf these characters but it might affect their overall performance when other characters have ways out. Quan does not. In the interest of balance it makes sense to help quan than ruin an entire character. And giving quan a fasterpoke doesn't make any of his MUs better. He doesn't need to use pokes in offence

 

[I GOT HANDS]

You're picking apart arguments to what tailors you. Yes dvorah and Kung Lao are hard mus. That's cool. I have options in those MUs. Liu kang and Tanya I don't. They just do whet they want as soon as they touch me, I don't get a chance to guess. Block infinites. That's not intended. They could nerf these characters but it might affect their overall performance when other characters have ways out. Quan does not. In the interest of balance it makes sense to help quan than ruin an entire character. And giving quan a fasterpoke doesn't make any of his MUs better. He doesn't need to use pokes in offence

And as such... he needs something else turned down to compensate for the other match ups that swing further Quan's way because of such changes... how is this so hard to understand.





That's a rhetorical question. The answer is that its not hard at all to understand, you are just choosing to ignore this part because its beneficial to you to do so

 

[legion666]

I'm all for ironing out a character and making everything work as should, and making useless tools and strings have some sort of use

But to do so also means making that character stronger, the fact that this particular character does so well even without the improvements you are asking for, means he needs to have some things toned down a bit to offset it (while still remaining useful). This is how we keep him balanced as he's a well above average character as is, but he at least has defined holes in his game. We can't just plug em blindly


That's.... kinda the point. So if we are gonna buff his defense we need to nerf his offense

Why is it so hard to understand that it isn't making a character stronger it is fixing a problem in game mechanic. His offense is ridiculous but in order to loose your life bar you have to GUESS WRONG couple of times. But a lot of characters ( not only top tiers) have legit block infinites on him. In this scenario you don't guess it is BRAINDEAD. You just lose your life bar for blocking once. And for a lot of characters it doesn't require any resources. It can't be justified by good offense. Zoning, even the best zoning in MKX won't get you far as the game itself is rushdown oriented. Vortex is something that you can get out of, even if it is ridiculously hard and you have to be hit in order for Quan to start it. Block infinites you can't get out of, you don't have to be hit just block one and you are dead.
I don't know how else to explain that block infinites ( especially meterless ones) can not be justified in any fighting game.

 

[Zoidberg747]

Why is it so hard to understand that it isn't making a character stronger it is fixing a problem in game mechanic. His offense is ridiculous but in order to loose your life bar you have to GUESS WRONG couple of times. But a lot of characters ( not only top tiers) have legit block infinites on him. In this scenario you don't guess it is BRAINDEAD. You just lose your life bar for blocking once. And for a lot of characters it doesn't require any resources. It can't be justified by good offense. Zoning, even the best zoning in MKX won't get you far as the game itself is rushdown oriented. Vortex is something that you can get out of, even if it is ridiculously hard and you have to be hit in order for Quan to start it. Block infinites you can't get out of, you don't have to be hit just block one and you are dead.
I don't know how else to explain that block infinites ( especially meterless ones) can not be justified in any fighting game.

Can you give me an example of one of these block infinites?

No shade, I legitimately want to know.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Why is it so hard to understand that it isn't making a character stronger it is fixing a problem in game mechanic. His offense is ridiculous but in order to loose your life bar you have to GUESS WRONG couple of times. But a lot of characters ( not only top tiers) have legit block infinites on him. In this scenario you don't guess it is BRAINDEAD. You just lose your life bar for blocking once. And for a lot of characters it doesn't require any resources. It can't be justified by good offense. Zoning, even the best zoning in MKX won't get you far as the game itself is rushdown oriented. Vortex is something that you can get out of, even if it is ridiculously hard and you have to be hit in order for Quan to start it. Block infinites you can't get out of, you don't have to be hit just block one and you are dead.
I don't know how else to explain that block infinites ( especially meterless ones) can not be justified in any fighting game.

So, even if this is "fixing a game mechanic" as you choose to call it, how is this not also improving the character and making him stronger? Especially when pretty much all proposed changes are beneficial to him in every single match up, not just the bad ones. Any explanation here? Or are you just using fix the "mechanics!" as a way to deflect the undeniable fact that this ALSO makes him stronger?

 

[legion666]

And as such... he needs something else turned down to compensate for the other match ups that swing further Quan's way because of such changes... how is this so hard to understand.





That's a rhetorical question. The answer is that its not hard at all to understand, you are just choosing to ignore this part because its beneficial to you to do so

A fast poke that is -8 or -9 on block and say +7 or even +6 on hit won't make his offense any better, so it doesn't affect other match up. And it isn't a get out of pressure for free card. It just gives him one option. I think it is fair to have options even in bad match ups, don't you?

 

[legion666]

Can you give me an example of one of these block infinites?

No shade, I legitimately want to know.

I am not even a Quan main by the way, he is my secondary, but from the top of my head liu kang's f213xx fire ball xx Dash X 7. He can do it 7 times until the stamina is depleted, and when it is he has done 20% chip, built 2 bars of meter which allows him to do a cancel into Ex Bicycle kick which is +2 and his f213xxfbxxdashX7 starts again as f2 is 10 frames start up and Quan's fastest move is a high 8 frame standing 2, which can't even trade with a 10 frame f2 at +2 as it takes him 1 frame to come out of block animation which turns standing 2 into a 9 frame move. Of course he can't armor out with Ex Sky Drop. And even Warlock can't get out as Liu's strings break his slow ass armor.

 

[Error404]

Quan gets top5 at evo yet his community wants buffs. Da faq

 

[legion666]

Quan gets top5 at evo yet his community wants buffs. Da faq

Reptile got top 8 as well. Your point ?!

 

[KIllaByte]

Kotal's footsies and EX OSS are nothing short of top 3 in the game, his mobility is also very good in general when it comes to moving forward. He has a much easier time getting in and whiff punishing than 80% of the cast so it's inevitable that he will corner you.

I pretty much always agree with you, but I need to know what EX OSS is before I fully agree.

 

[DabJr 187]

@legion666 You need to join a debate squad the entire time I read your arguments especially the liu kang part I was like this guy... Is freaking awesome ahaha

 

[Evil Canadian]

Reptile got top 8 as well. Your point ?!

Then reptile should get buffs too, just not as many as Quan.

Erron Black should get the most buffs since he won, that is the privilege of the winner.

 

[legion666]

Then reptile should get buffs too, just not as many as Quan.

Erron Black should get the most buffs since he won, that is the privilege of the winner.

Dat TYM logic

 

[Rude]

Quan gets top5 at evo yet his community wants buffs. Da faq

Asking for a faster poke isn't us demanding hella ridiculous buffs.

As an example, if you are cornered by a Dragonfire Liu Kang, escape is next to impossible.

Dash cancelling after the f213 fireball is +5 or 6. From there he can go into another string into +2 mb bicycle kick and by the time that is done, he's built enough stamina to start run cancel pressure all over again.

And especially when cornered, Quan Chi cannot escape. At. All.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

This thread makes me fuckin embarassed for your community

 

[Rude]

This thread makes me fuckin embarassed for your community

You're completely clueless.