Match-Up Discussion - Cassie Cage "Did You Just Say Kick My @$%?" - The Cassie Cage Matchup Thread.

[Wrath0594]

I have to guess between the overhead dropkick and slide on my wakeup, and he has to guess DF1 or F3 after the nutpunch.

Uh... I don't think these things are equal...
>___>

 

[Wrath0594]

a shinnok ended my 50+ ranked win streak using boneshaper. i then came across two more shinnoks in ranked who also beat me with boneshaper. i've added some of them and i wanna explore that matchup and see if i can come up with anything for it.

I played a decent Boneshaper Shinnok in some offline sets. The pushback on his zoning tools is annoying, especially the 3 blasts. Just run block and slowly, patiently work your way toward him. If he ever tries the unblockable, run across the screen into a b1 full combo. You just have to be patient, but I don't think he has any way to deal with Cassie at close range.

 

[Scott The Scot]

I played a decent Boneshaper Shinnok in some offline sets. The pushback on his zoning tools is annoying, especially the 3 blasts. Just run block and slowly, patiently work your way toward him. If he ever tries the unblockable, run across the screen into a b1 full combo. You just have to be patient, but I don't think he has any way to deal with Cassie at close range.

Dude, the hell sparks are increadibly punishable. Like if Shinnok does it at close range the third one misses and Cassie can literally run and b1 shinnok. I don't think Shinnok presents much of, if any, threat to Cassie.

 

[Wrath0594]

Dude, the hell sparks are increadibly punishable. Like if Shinnok does it at close range the third one misses and Cassie can literally run and b1 shinnok. I don't think Shinnok presents much of, if any, threat to Cassie.

I mean, I hope he wouldn't do it at pointblank. This was a while ago, can't he just use a blockstring cancelled into it to push you back to full screen?
And also, I agree. Pretty sure Cass wins this MU fine, like I said. Was just trying to give the guy some advice.

 

[RiBBz22]

Does anyone else agree that Hollywood Cassie vs. Outlaw Erron is 5-5? I've played over 100 matches with my friend and it feels even, but I win more often because I'm doing 40%+ in the corner and he's doing 28%. I feel that both characters have the tools to deal with each other's shenanigans and neither really overwhelms the other. It's all a matter of the first hit, meter use, and the first knockdown. He's blocking and punishing all of my mixups so well that I've been forced to use F34 quite often along with my b123 to d3 checks to maintain pressure. I have to guess between the overhead dropkick and slide on my wakeup, and he has to guess DF1 or F3 after the nutpunch. The only thing I struggle with is the range of Erron's neutral jump 2, but I attribute most of that to getting frustrated and doing autopilot b1's.

Even Outlaw should be getting more than 28 in the corner. Marksman probably out-damages Cassie overall.

 

[DevilMaySpy]

Uh... I don't think these things are equal...
>___>

They are, because if he knocks me down, then I have to play his game and deal with his pressure. That damn near half screen reaching overhead with the pistol is also obnoxious.

 

[Scott The Scot]

I mean, I hope he wouldn't do it at pointblank. This was a while ago, can't he just use a blockstring cancelled into it to push you back to full screen?
And also, I agree. Pretty sure Cass wins this MU fine, like I said. Was just trying to give the guy some advice.

Depends on the string he uses, I think there is one string/normal that allows three hellsparks to connect. Otherwise the third one whiffs, if I remember correctly.

 

[Wrath0594]

They are, because if he knocks me down, then I have to play his game and deal with his pressure. That damn near half screen reaching overhead with the pistol is also obnoxious.

I mean you compared Erron's knockdown into slide/running kick with Cassie's restand into 50/50. The fact that you're knocked down gives you access to many more options that he has. You can armor through him, delay wakeup and punish, backdash, etc. Also the slide/running kick are both pretty reactable if you're on the ground. Even if you eat one of these, it's what, 7%?

Meanwhile there are only a few moves he has to get out of the nutpunch, and if he's not fast enough or guesses wrong, he eats a full combo for at least 25% into another restand. And if you meterburn the nutpunch, he literally only has 2 choices- block low or high. You can turn the game into a coin flip provided you have the meter.

 

[DevilMaySpy]

I mean you compared Erron's knockdown into slide/running kick with Cassie's restand into 50/50. The fact that you're knocked down gives you access to many more options that he has. You can armor through him, delay wakeup and punish, backdash, etc. Also the slide/running kick are both pretty reactable if you're on the ground. Even if you eat one of these, it's what, 7%?

He's doing EX slide, so no, I can't armor through, and the F4 does like 15%. I am punishing the slides on block, and that shit is not reactable. If you'd like to prove me wrong and do the Saucy Jack challenge and block either 10/10 times, be my guest.

Meanwhile there are only a few moves he has to get out of the nutpunch, and if he's not fast enough or guesses wrong, he eats a full combo for at least 25% into another restand. And if you meterburn the nutpunch, he literally only has 2 choices- block low or high. You can turn the game into a coin flip provided you have the meter.

I know that.

 

[Wrath0594]

He's doing EX slide, so no, I can't armor through, and the F4 does like 15%. I am punishing the slides on block, and that shit is not reactable. If you'd like to prove me wrong and do the Saucy Jack challenge and block either 10/10 times, be my guest.



I know that.

If he's using ex slide on your wakeup, he's wasting meter for nothing. And I'm saying laying on the ground since you said after knockdown, you can just play with your timing getting up- watch and see if he throws out a slide or not. And his f4 is definitely reactable. You can stay in low block, and if he goes into the animation, getup.

Erron's not too great at stuffing wakeup options. There's a lot more you can do in this situation than he can after your combo ends.

 

[DevilMaySpy]

If he's using ex slide on your wakeup, he's wasting meter for nothing. And I'm saying laying on the ground since you said after knockdown, you can just play with your timing getting up- watch and see if he throws out a slide or not. And his f4 is definitely reactable. You can stay in low block, and if he goes into the animation, getup.

He uses meter because he knows I want to use meter on my EX Glowkick to escape the pressure.

 

[Wrath0594]

He uses meter because he knows I want to use meter on my EX Glowkick to escape the pressure.

Ok, I give up.

Knockdown into ex slidekick/running overhead kick is c̶o̶m̶p̶a̶r̶a̶b̶l̶e̶ ̶t̶o̶ better than a restand 50/50.

It's not you getting read hard and thinking it relates to the overall matchup.

-_____-"

 

[DevilMaySpy]

Ok, I give up.

Knockdown into ex slidekick/running overhead kick is c̶o̶m̶p̶a̶r̶a̶b̶l̶e̶ ̶t̶o̶ better than a restand 50/50.

It's not you getting read hard and thinking it relates to the overall matchup.

-_____-"

Considering he gets a full combo punish if he blocks me correctly and can apply pressure after I'm knocked down, yeah it is comparable, and you can give up if you're going to be pretentious about it. You're not going to talk to me like that.

 

[Wrath0594]

I'm just losing patience hanging out on the Kung Jin boards and playing so many bad players online.

All I'm trying to say is that while there's plenty of room to argue that the MU is indeed a 5-5; Cassie's vortex and speed vs Erron's range and safety, etc. etc. a few of the analogies you're using to compare the characters are flawed. Restands and knockdowns are fundamentally different. The same goes for combo starting strings like df1 and footsie tools like Erron's slide.

And as I said, I think you're severely underestimating the amount of options you have on wakeup. If we're only talking about slide/f4, by simply playing with your timing by delaying wakeups, you can increase Erron's margin for error 10-fold. It raises the risk that he'll throw it out too early and whiff, or throw it out too late and get blocked. Either way, he'll get comboed and start to play safer. Then he'll probably switch to running in to start 50/50's, but consequently be within range of armored getaway flip and glow kick, but that's an entirely different situation.

That's really all there is to say about it. Some match footage would go a long way in seeing how it really plays out in practice.

 

[DevilMaySpy]

I'm just losing patience hanging out on the Kung Jin boards and playing so many bad players online.

All I'm trying to say is that while there's plenty of room to argue that the MU is indeed a 5-5; Cassie's vortex and speed vs Erron's range and safety, etc. etc. a few of the analogies you're using to compare the characters are flawed. Restands and knockdowns are fundamentally different. The same goes for combo starting strings like df1 and footsie tools like Erron's slide.

I know that. All I'm saying is I have to respect his options while I'm knocked down and make a decision. It's a guessing game for both parties. If I hold down, I risk getting hit with his half screen reaching overhead pistol starter for a combo or a 15% F4. If I stand block, I risk getting hit by a slide and having to guess again. I'm aware that my restand is much safer and has a higher/risk reward. I'm aware that I can full combo punish the slide. In a momentum based game like this, and against a momentum based character like Erron Black, knockdowns are still very relevant to the matchup.

And as I said, I think you're severely underestimating the amount of options you have on wakeup. If we're only talking about slide/f4, by simply playing with your timing by delaying wakeups, you can increase Erron's margin for error 10-fold. It raises the risk that he'll throw it out too early and whiff, or throw it out too late and get blocked. Either way, he'll get comboed and start to play safer. Then he'll probably switch to running in to start 50/50's, but consequently be within range of armored getaway flip and glow kick, but that's an entirely different situation.

That's really all there is to say about it. Some match footage would go a long way in seeing how it really plays out in practice.

I'm already switching up my wakeup timing and use of wakeups. Like I said, we've played over a hundred times, so naturally, we're going to pick up each other's tendencies. It's just a guessing game in restand/knockdown situations. In neutral, we're just waiting for each other to make a mistake. I'll record a FT5 next time we play.

 

[RiBBz22]

Quick video about dealing with Sonya MS shenanigans to help Cassie mains and really generally any character with the MU.

 

[AK XEN0M0RPH]

Does anyone else agree that Hollywood Cassie vs. Outlaw Erron is 5-5? I've played over 100 matches with my friend and it feels even, but I win more often because I'm doing 40%+ in the corner and he's doing 28%. I feel that both characters have the tools to deal with each other's shenanigans and neither really overwhelms the other. It's all a matter of the first hit, meter use, and the first knockdown. He's blocking and punishing all of my mixups so well that I've been forced to use F34 quite often along with my b123 to d3 checks to maintain pressure. I have to guess between the overhead dropkick and slide on my wakeup, and he has to guess DF1 or F3 after the nutpunch. The only thing I struggle with is the range of Erron's neutral jump 2, but I attribute most of that to getting frustrated and doing autopilot b1's.

Def 5-5. @AK Stormthegates just started playing him and it felt like tools wise, it may be even if not 5.5 - 4.5 cassie. Will know better when he has put more time in him and less drops.

 

[AK XEN0M0RPH]

Quick video about dealing with Sonya MS shenanigans to help Cassie mains and really generally any character with the MU.

GOD BLESS YOU SIR. GONNA BLOW UP SONYAS WITH THIS

 

[ShaolinGunFu]

Is that my sonya in that selfie? you did that fatality to me right before making that video, ha

 

[DementedAggression]

Any advice for getting in against a boneshaper Shinnok? A couple of people here have already mentioned him and a friend of mine mains him, whenever we play a few matches I feel like I just don't have any good windows to get in with his playstyle. This guy will mash unblockables and hell sparks to push me full screen and if I manage to get close he will uppercut me and start pushing me back full screen again. Like I said, I just don't see my opportunity to get in once I am full screen, maybe I need to play more patiently, as I tend to go for a lot of pressure with Hollywood Cassie so when someone keeps me out I feel pretty stuck. Maybe Spec Ops is the better variation for this matchup?

 

[RiBBz22]

yo ribbz is that my sonya in that selfie? you did that fatality to me right before making that vid! lol

lol nah I just snagged it off the interwebs because all the suggested thumbnails suckkkked.

 

[Pan1cMode]

Any advice for getting in against a boneshaper Shinnok? A couple of people here have already mentioned him and a friend of mine mains him, whenever we play a few matches I feel like I just don't have any good windows to get in with his playstyle. This guy will mash unblockables and hell sparks to push me full screen and if I manage to get close he will uppercut me and start pushing me back full screen again. Like I said, I just don't see my opportunity to get in once I am full screen, maybe I need to play more patiently, as I tend to go for a lot of pressure with Hollywood Cassie so when someone keeps me out I feel pretty stuck. Maybe Spec Ops is the better variation for this matchup?

If you block hells parks, run in and 21u4 on reaction. If you see him raise the staff for the unblockable, jump forward. Shinnock is reallllllly negative after hell sparks, make sure to capitalise on that.

 

[sars]

Playing as brawler veriation. The 3 match ups that give me trouble are sub geandmaster, jax, and cassie cage.even if people can't hit combos I always lose. I just feel like I can't punish nothing against Jackie or jax. Anybody have anyone there horrible again online. Definently going to have to hit the training room against these individuals

 

[DevilMaySpy]

So I just got destroyed by Tom Brady 20-2. Enjoy my tears and critique away. I already know my main problems like getting frustrated, rushing unnecessarily, and waking up constantly, but I have no idea what to do about Grandmaster Sub's pressure .
http://www.twitch.tv/devilmayspy/v/4943128

@Pan1cMode

a shinnok ended my 50+ ranked win streak using boneshaper. i then came across two more shinnoks in ranked who also beat me with boneshaper. i've added some of them and i wanna explore that matchup and see if i can come up with anything for it.

I think I lost to that same guy. He was zoning me out with the laser gun and Hell Sparks.

 

[Pan1cMode]

So I just got destroyed by Tom Brady 20-2. Enjoy my tears and critique away. I already know my main problems like getting frustrated, rushing unnecessarily, and waking up constantly, but I have no idea what to do about Grandmaster Sub's pressure .
http://www.twitch.tv/devilmayspy/v/4943128

@Pan1cMode



I think I lost to that same guy. He was zoning me out with the laser gun and Hell Sparks.

I'll look at this later when I get home
Sub zero grandmaster is very frustrating for cassie.

Just off the top of my head though in general:
- you can't punish block string into clone so you gotta hold that
- iaguns to presure from full screen, don't let them camp behind clone
- punish b2 with reversal glow kick. If he's got a clone out, use the ex version for a knockdown into pressure. You can also punish with b1/b2 but the window is tighter
- iceball is hard to react to, but if used on block it is punishable
- slide is hella punishable, both ex and regular
- stuff slide wakeup with f44. Timing is tight but doable. Ice klone won't come out at that range cause you're too close.
- If you think he's gonna block on wakeup, mix in some grabs