Deoxys new Tier List

[Toruko61]

@DayAlreadySucks he most likely is, sorry about the misinformation. there were a few at destroyers console league, but i am not sure about the rule set he used.

@MKF30 i feel like it, but i am also not the best player. just played once against a good sz player who spaced me out at poking all the time and brain"loved" me with his oki game.
but i also lose to gimmicky sub zero players, so yeah don´t know if my opinion counts.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

LawAbidingCitizen, Who the f**** said its 7-3, except for some tweet of Sonicfox, and we dont know if this tweet is seriously or not. The way he write that tweet doesnt look much serious at all.
Neither SylverRye or Deoxys, neither any of the Pros said this matchup is 7-3.
Can you stop posting false pls ?
Everyone on this forum understand that you are a die hard Liu Kang main and his defender, yet pretend to be Kabal player, but no ones believes you.

To be clear I never said its a 7-3 MU. I don't think anyone is 7-3 in MK11.
Sonic said it a few others agreed its in Johnny's favor.
I also noted those tweets where not my opinion. My opinion is it very well could be in Johnny's Favor 6-4 being the highest I think possible but somewhere between 5.5-4.5/6-4 seems more likely.
Once again I'm not a liu Kang main. I main Kabal MS. I made a few threads to help others with the matchup and have the opinion he isn't really broke just Uber strong. I played MK9 and X competitively and both those games day 1 had so much broke shit it made MK11 look honest on day 1.
Cyrax had 200% resets, unblockable throws that couldn't be teched for 60% of your life.
Kabal had looping blockstuns infinites and insane pressure.
MKX was no different, HTBs, Unblockable, true 50/50's into 50/50's into tick throws, +20 on block cancels some looped, Vortex's, Resets, and literally every tool that MK11 Kang had plus all this above on one character including 1 touch kills.

You really need to stop saying shit about me. Its not true and has no purpose.
I honestly could care less if Kang gets nerfed now. I've done what I feel is right but I'd rather just let him get nerfed so we can move on to the next victim everyone will start complaining about. Happens every game.

Well, earlier than expected but the shitstorm started with literally exactly what I predicted it would, see that post above a couple lol.

Man doesn't even play Cage and just dickrode twitter with exactly what I said is bullshit, LOL.

Well this is it, nice knowin ya all. Kiss Cage fixes goodbye, better luck in mk12.

I bet he gets fixes. Many top players are asking for his fireballs to not wiff on females and several other changes.
I'm not against the character. Just a messenger so don't shoot me.

Does Sub give LK that much of a hard time? I haven't really seen much of that match up.

I don't think Sub DOW really gives him a hard time but has ok tools to deal with some of his more reactable layers on F43.
Thin Ice however definitely has plenty of extra tools to punish Kang and I feel its rather close to even. The fact he has Slide to go under the fireballs and can reversal and buffer it is incredibly important. Having Better footsie range and the second best wavedash is incredibly strong in that MU.
Pretty decent counter zoning and can do well if he lives in footsie range between Slide/B1/F4/F2 range.

But I don't think its in Subs favor he just has some unique ways to counter some of Kang's stuff.

 

[FonicSox]

The only dynamic with the Liu/Sub match that sets it apart from others is you cannot trade projectiles with Sub-Zero (especially if it's DoW). Any trade favors him. That's why Buffalo pieced SylverRye up in whatever tournament they last played in -- Rye didn't respect that he couldn't zone and tried anyway and got blown up.

Beyond that I don't see how it favors Sub and Liu can easily just opt not to play the zoning game. Might be 5-5 but I sincerely doubt it favors Sub.

 

[Deoxys243]

Congrats on all your recent success

thanks!!

 

[DrFolmer]

My opinion is it very well could be in Johnny's Favor 6-4 being the highest I think possible but somewhere between 5.5-4.5/6-4 seems more likely.

I can agree to this. I'm not oblivious to the advantages in this matchup compared to a lot of other matchups - I just feel the 7-3 notion is absurd tbh, and is not reflected in high level play thus far. Though 12 whiffing on JC (and a lot of the females mind you) sucks for Kang, he's much more than that - similarly to how JC is more than Forceballs. 12 whiffs on quite a few characters including Jacqui who arguably play a better neutral than Kang anyway. Nobody's out here screaming 7-3 in her case. And yes, she does not have a projectile but she has a 9f mid, Krushing Blows, throw game which Johnny lacks - and it's something that can be taken advantage of

I definitely felt Geras was a very favorable matchup, but LK has options whereas Geras had to give up one of the absolutely most important tools in his arsenal. 6-4 or 5.5-4.5 seems more likely considering the matchup on paper as well as what we have seen thus far

 

[MKF30]

I don't think Sub DOW really gives him a hard time but has ok tools to deal with some of his more reactable layers on F43.
Thin Ice however definitely has plenty of extra tools to punish Kang and I feel its rather close to even. The fact he has Slide to go under the fireballs and can reversal and buffer it is incredibly important. Having Better footsie range and the second best wavedash is incredibly strong in that MU.
Pretty decent counter zoning and can do well if he lives in footsie range between Slide/B1/F4/F2 range.

But I don't think its in Subs favor he just has some unique ways to counter some of Kang's stuff.

Yeah the slide definitely is a great tool to get in, punish and go under high projectiles. Yeah his super iceball variation goes through everything you have to be careful on zoning Sub in that one.

[USER=123]@MKF30 i feel like it, but i am also not the best player. just played once against a good sz player who spaced me out at poking all the time and brain"loved" me with his oki game.
but i also lose to gimmicky sub zero players, so yeah don´t know if my opinion counts.

I use Wu Shi LK sometimes, whenever I pick him I never get a Sub maybe cause of the teleport? lol But yeah, Sub's are tough if they're patient you have to also be patient. It can be annoying, I have found Jade beats Sub pretty bad since her flash changes his game dramatically, he can't trade if he can't freeze you know what I mean?

 

[lordlosh]

Buffalo and SylverRye are 1-1 on majors. Sylver beats him in CEO, while Daddy beats him at the EVO. But Daddy is the best Sub player, while SylverRye is not ...

LawAbidingCitizen, nothing against you, just dont agree with your post and false statement.
Again show me where multiple people as you stated said Johnny is 7-3 vs Kang.

It was just 1 tweet from SonicFox and no one knows if this tweet is serious, because of the way its written.
Even if SonicFox thinks like that, its one guy who thinks like that and we will understand if he can beat Kang player in the upcoming tournaments with Cage.
So far SonicFox himseld said Kang is a problem and searching character to counter/beat Kang. Which shows you how much of a problem Kang is.

Kombat, SylverRye, Deoxys, Sonic, Azeez, and plenty more say its clearly in Johnny favor

Show us where all of this guys said its in Johnny favor.

And also the new OS stuffs discovered from Raptor help Liu tremendously. Plenty of people explained why. I will just leave his F3 string as a start up ....

 

[DarksydeDash]

The only Kitana "downplay" I see is specifally towards fanfare. Highborne is infinitely better in everyway but it's not top 10 with her universal flaws.

 

[M.D.]

I bet he gets fixes. Many top players are asking for his fireballs to not wiff on females and several other changes.
I'm not against the character. Just a messenger so don't shoot me.

Fireballs are literally the only thing left to care about. Getting better KBs (not like top tiers, to have like 6 of them, but at least 2 per variation would suffice) is already a surreal dream, I don't even dare to mention that one any more.

 

[Name v.5.0]

Fireballs are literally the only thing left to care about. Getting better KBs (not like top tiers, to have like 6 of them, but at least 2 per variation would suffice) is already a surreal dream, I don't even dare to mention that one any more.

Nah, fuck that. Mention it. I want my parry/camera KB.

 

[Arqwart]

Fireballs are literally the only thing left to care about. Getting better KBs (not like top tiers, to have like 6 of them, but at least 2 per variation would suffice) is already a surreal dream, I don't even dare to mention that one any more.

That is 100% worth mentioning as it is still absolutely ridiculous that characters like Liu, Sub-Zero, Geras, Jacqui, and Scorpion get natural KBs by just doing their thing while characters like Cetrion, Johnny, and Kitana have to go way out of their way risking intentionally stupid shit or be insanely lucky to pull off their KBs.

The KB balance is easily my #2 item that needs addressing, second only to hitboxes.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

Again show me where multiple people as you stated said Johnny is 7-3 vs Kang.

- I didn't say multiple people Said its 7-3.
only Sonic said its 7-3
- which I believe is most likely hyperbole.

- Several top players have agreed with Sonic saying its in Johnnys 's favor because of several advantages.

 

[Vslayer]

Oh buthurt Kang player ....
With your comment you just show how bad you are in the game if you cant handle a character that is not even top 10.
And Kang was top tier before the patch. Some people just not use him properly, and play him to his big strength, he was underplayed, but he still have all of his tools. Tho ninja back then was still a monster with him.
And yeah totally broken character deserve that, so they feel the pain of the others.

I'm going to warn you this time, but please speak to people like they're actually human beings, not trash you can talk down to like you're somehow better than them at everything. Have some freaking respect for your fellow players. If you can't debate a point without having to trash talk people's skill and mains, then don't bother posting at all, because the next time I see you personally attacking someone, I'm deleting the post.

Fucking kids these days, I swear.

 

[lordlosh]

Vslayer i get personally insulted many times, yet you do nothing and say nothing about it. But when i decide to defend myself OP im a problem, just wow.
Check the comment i reply to and most of Hellbringer reply to me and come tell me how should i respond then.

With every people who goes into normal discussion i get normal discussion .

And im far from kid, but thanks.

LawAbidingCitizen, its your own statement man, i even quote you:
Again:

All of this has to mean something. Its probably closer to 6-4 but when many top players all say the same thing: Kombat, SylverRye, Deoxys, Sonic, Azeez, and plenty more say its clearly in Johnny favor

Where is this statement ? I dont know who is Azeez, but neither Kombat or Deoxys said that Johnny have advantage in this matchup, and which are this many more? This is pure false statement dude.

The only statement is by SonicFox, who no one knows if he was serious or was joking.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

Show us where all of this guys said its in Johnny favor.

I'll try to find most of them, some of them where on stream so I can't quote those.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1174712471166291971

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1174394565127802881

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1174413392959954948

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1174396109587996672

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1174725675816751106

I won't post some if tweedys and others because its just bashing Johnny players while just agreeing with SylverRye and Sonic
The rest where in sonics stream and the stream is not permanent yet and I'm not subbed but I seen it live.

When I find more tweets I'll be sure to post em. Some players try to stay out of the spotlight which is understandable since several people are friends and it could step on toes.

 

[Vslayer]

Vslayer i get personally insulted many times, yet you do nothing and say nothing about it. But when i decide to defend myself OP im a problem, just wow.
Check the comment i reply to and most of Hellbringer reply to me and come tell me how should i respond then.

With every people who goes into normal discussion i get normal discussion .

And im far from kid, but thanks.

LawAbidingCitizen, its your own statement man, i even quote you:
Again:


Where is this statement ? I dont know who is Azeez, but neither Kombat or Deoxys said that Johnny have advantage in this matchup, and which are this many more? This is pure false statement dude.

The only statement is by SonicFox, who no one knows if he was serious or was joking.

So you reply to their insults with other insults instead of bringing it to a mod's attention? The reason I'm warning you is because someone brought this post to my attention. If someone is being an ass to you, come to me. I don't care who started, who said it first, the next personal insult I see towards anyone, I delete. Period.

 

[lordlosh]

Vslayer, this is about right. My mistake. Wont happen again.
LawAbidingCitizen, you are throwing some random twitter stuffs.
I ask where is the so call multiple Pro players who said Johnny Cage have advantage in this matchup.
You are showing me twitter posts, where people are joking arround and showing videos in the Lab how some of Kang moves whiff on Johhny.
SylverRye is a Kang player and he is defending this char from long time. But i never see him said Johhny is in favor in this matchup, as you state.
He is quoting SonicFox and his opinion on this matchup. Never for himself said Johhny is 7-3 or favor him in that matchup.

The only one that said its a 7-3 matchup was SonicFox and again, the way its written no one knows if SonicFox is serious or not.

But its a pure lie that Kombat or Deoxys said anything about that matchup.
Can you for once come and said that you was wrong and simply overreacting or lie about it ? Cause this is what exactly happen.

 

[Tony at Home]

Very important names are showing most of the OS's from raptors new tech all have counterplay.

What's the counter play to Sub Zeros B24 OS?

On block he gets a safe B2, on hit he gets the normally unhitconfirmable damage of the full string.

EDIT
F24 I mean.

All the OS's that have counter play are built on the same input flaw that causes the OS's that are just straight busted

 

[Tony at Home]

Nightwolf I could see being NRS PLZ. He feels like this seasons Cassie

 

[Arqwart]

Nightwolf I could see being NRS PLZ. He feels like this seasons Cassie

He's definitely a contender for the "Jack of all trades, master of all" sort of character from what I've seen so far, but I don't see him as a top 3 sorta guy. He's got some fantastic strengths and lots of options alongside some terrifying advancing normals while also having great combo damage, relative safety, 2x grab KBs, nigh Geras-level oki on grabs, insane oki on shoulder charge...

Ok. Maybe he could contend for top 3. I'm interested to see how it plays out upon his release to the tournament scene.

He does at least seem to require a little more thought than the current usual suspects so that'd at least be a little more interesting to watch from a spectator perspective (at least for me). I do absolutely hate his (and every other character who has it) auto-shimmying bullshit though.

 

[SwiftEagle]

For me it has nothing to do with Sonic and more to do with evidence along with many of the best players in the world supporting it. Obviously its not a 7-3 Sonic blows things out of proportion. This community has never been slow to criticize Sonic including top players. Go look at Sonics tier list comments.

12 wiffing alone is a huge deal. The entire reason many have him at #1 is based off the jailing buff making his +3 ob 12 an auto shimmy when jailed that puts them in the blender.
It wiffs every time. The F4 and F43 wiff from max range when Johnny is crouch blocking (depending on his breath box) and when he blocks high then low after first hit.
212 on of his best staggers and pressure tools.
B34 his best move from range other than flykick and only low which gets him his nest corner damage vs males.
B1 his best stagger and only way to jail high fireball other than B2.
All wiff point blank.

I don't think Johnny is top tier but most of his problems are nonexistent In this MU.

Then let's add Johnny has a better fireball, better range, better gap closer and his ex fireballs don't wiff on Kang.

All of this has to mean something. Its probably closer to 6-4 but when many top players all say the same thing: Kombat, SylverRye, Deoxys, Sonic, Azeez, and plenty more say its clearly in Johnny favor. I started to question what I knew cuz its very possible they know something we don't added to all I've listed above.

And remember if Sonic or any of these players say Something crazy most top players criticize them all over twitter. Non of them have been slow to show their opinion.
As to why Sonic hasn't used Johnny before its probably because he had characters he felt where Uber broke and didn't need a different character. Many may just not like Johnny as a character and don't play him because if it. He was very popular when he had tons of dirt in MK9/MKX.

I understand the irritation of Sonic putting your character on blast or even using them. No one knows this better than honeybee.

Sonic is using Johnny for the matchup and even moped Rewind who beat him last time with Liu. I imagine others will follow suit. Deoxys is joking but Saudi he is gonna quiT. Its kinda funny cuz Sonic landed F43 KB on his geras lol.

Don't shoot the messengers, the following tweets are not my opinion:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1174841436786872320

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1174899755077357568

Some not all Johnny mains are not receptive but here is Tweedys recent comment on the matter:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1175054470813757447

Showstopper got buffed. Randoms will attempt to squeeze out free wins now which won't go well. You still have to work for that damage. Pros will manage to get a few lucky wins here and there, but that's it. Everybody goes back to their characters in the end. The Cage phase will pass.
It's common knowledge that only big boys can use Cage consistently without switching. Especially in KL with all the mashers and Cetrion spammers.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

What's the counter play to Sub Zeros B24 OS?

On block he gets a safe B2, on hit he gets the normally unhitconfirmable damage of the full string.

EDIT
F24 I mean.

All the OS's that have counter play are built on the same input flaw that causes the OS's that are just straight busted

Honestly I don't know the counterplay for that one. Do you remember what F2 is on block off hand? I think its -3 on hit. But I think it could be one if the few that is UN counter able. UltraDavid basically said most of them are counterable. There are several CMD Grab OS's now and you could literally duck them. Sonya's B123 OS is unsafe cuz B12 is -9 on block.
Paulo said this OS is intentional and has been in MK games since MK4 and its a layer of depth for players to discover.

Let me find the posts about this:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1173334483690344449

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1173652869859299328

I was one of the first to freak out about them. Paulo and UltraDavid are saying they have counterplay. Not sure what Subs F24/B32xxDF1 is other than them being predictable. But its pretty hard to do and they do add depth and many do move the guess/read to another spot instead of removing them.
Anyways check that out

 

[Parasurama]

Hmmm 7-3 - that would mean it's pretty much free if you play Johnny at the highest level.

But you don't see Johnny at the highest level against Kangs - hell, any character. Since we talk "the highest level" it would indicate no one has a Johnny at the highest level, because why wouldn't you go for a hard counter when it's there? There is also the more likely reason - what makes him 'win' is super impractical and not really reflective of the actual matchup.

Johnny Cage is like a fucking boogieman in this game. So many talk him up to be this super scary 7-3/6-4 the whole cast regardless of whiffing. But you just never see it in action. The ones who fronted Cage play other characters now. A lot of Kang's whiffing against Cage has been known since CEO, so it's not like it's a recent discovery that Cage supposedly 7-3's Liu Kang - what makes it 7-3 has been known forever. And it's not like the NRS community avoid counter picks - everybody had a Deadshot, everybody had a Doctor Fate, some had a Green Arrow. Whenever people picked Bane, Flash, Robin, whatever - people IMMEDIATLY went to these 7-3 picks.

It's just so weird having a character who supposedly does incredibly well against a lot of the top tiers to the point he 7-3's one of them - and he gets 0 play. SHOW ME HOW HARD HE BEATS PEOPLE DAMMIT

I just wish they would just fix all Cage Kang and everyone’s whiffing issues. They are really dumb and it works against Johnny with females.

 

[lordlosh]

The so call OS is not that easy to use. Also there is not 100% consistency. And most likely will be fixed with the balance patch. A lot of top players said they want this OS removed and fixed asap.

 

[ShepherdOfFire]

Paulo said this OS is intentional and has been in MK games since MK4 and its a layer of depth for players to discover.

That's bullshit. It's just that the next patch that will add Terminator is already ready to being reviewed by Sony and they don't want to fix it right now.

If the OS is really intentional then this game is the WORST designed FG of all times. Why would a FG developer put a (well hidden) feature that absolutely goes in conflict with the spirit of fighting games ? They just don't want to fix it because it's either too difficult or too expensive so they use the ultimate excuse : "It adds gameplay depth". They used the EXACT same excuse when NRS finally addressed Johnny whiffing issues after the last patch of MKX went live. No it doesn't add gameplay depth, it's just a lame way to tell the players they don't want to waste development time fixing their game. NRS is such a fucking joke.