Deoxys new Tier List

[Toruko61]

Oh buthurt Kang player ....
With your comment you just show how bad you are in the game if you cant handle a character that is not even top 10.
And Kang was top tier before the patch. Some people just not use him properly, and play him to his big strength, he was underplayed, but he still have all of his tools. Tho ninja back then was still a monster with him.
And yeah totally broken character deserve that, so they feel the pain of the others.

Wasn't sub zero top tier pre patch? He wasn't even touched by the patch while liu was nerfed with a slight jail buff to d1.
Sub zero is online a pain in the ass with his 50/50s, especially the slide variation.
Jump in - > slide/overhead/grab gl mate guessing correctly.

Guess scar should also feel ashamed for losing to buffalo.

You are lowkey downplaying ninjakilla and badmouthing every liu kang player, even the ones who played him pre patch while there were better fighters to choose from.

Yeah I'm the butthurt one of us two. U must suck the moisture of the atmosphere around u with ur salt levels.

 

[ShepherdOfFire]

I think people overreact the JC/LK match up, it is not a 7-3. LK has a lot of great tools and there is just no way he could lose a MU to 7-3. The f43 requires Johnny to be stand blocking before ducking, and the threat of the b34 will make the Cage player block low most of the time. Again, the b34 whiffing issue can be canceled by the shitty game-breaking new universal OS that makes everything safe and makes the whole game totally dumb.

You can take advantage of larger bugs to cancel the other bugs. This sentence summarize pretty well this Bethesda game MK11.

I'm not saying that the whiffing issues aren't a big deal, I'm just saying that the whiffing issues do not make the match up that disadvantegeous for LK. If these whiffing issues were fixed, Liu Kang would probably beat Johnny in a heartbeat. All whiffing issues and this damn OS MUST be fixed, because MK11 is supposed to be a AAA top competitive fighting game, not an early access indie game.

 

[lordlosh]

Wasn't sub zero top tier pre patch? He wasn't even touched by the patch while liu was nerfed with a slight jail buff to d1.
Sub zero is online a pain in the ass with his 50/50s, especially the slide variation.
Jump in - > slide/overhead/grab gl mate guessing correctly.

Guess scar should also feel ashamed for losing to buffalo.

You are lowkey downplaying ninjakilla and badmouthing every liu kang player, even the ones who played him pre patch while there were better fighters to choose from.

Yeah I'm the butthurt one of us two. U must suck the moisture of the atmosphere around u with ur salt levels.

Who the f* ranked Sub Zero as top tier pre-patch for god sake? Everyone had him outside top 10. Just because you are low tier and dont know how to play him, doesnt mean he is any good.
His placement in tournament said it all, not a single top 8 finish in a major. Not a single tournament win, even in small local tournaments.
And Sub Zero have the worst throw range of all, so its pretty obviously when he will go for throw, OH and his low.
Scar loses to a lot of players lately, he is not on his level after CB.

 

[Hellbringer]

Lordlosh talking like hes good at the game, but all he does is just copying what proplayers say on twitter.
99,99 of ppl posting on this site would 10-0 him without any effort.
Never goes to tournaments but has no shame of trashtalking tournament players. What a jobber.

 

[M.D.]

Just got back from extensive re-testing of the whiffing JC/LK because I wasn't 100000% sure of some things.

1. If you literally block the first hit of f4 low, like if you block a 9 frame mid low, you can't do the whiffing issue. f43 does not whiff no matter what you do.

THEREFORE, Since you can't react to a 9 frame mid, it means you have to be stand blocking non stop. Which makes the LK player d3d3d3d3d3d3d3d3d3d3d3d3d3d3d3 you until you get it in your head you will not block high.

2. Once you block the first hit of f4 high, you have to immediately crouch to block the second hit of f4 low, otherwise the 3 will NOT whiff.
So you have to constantly concentrate to a) block the first hit high and once you confirm you did this, to b) quick crouch block the second hit and wait for the whiff. Good luck doing that when:

3. f4, the two hits of f4, never miss. He can still stagger throws or another BAZILLION f4 until you fucking DIE in real life without ever doing 3.

4. Once he staggers in a throw, GUESS WHAT. He has GERAS THROWS which leave you literally IN HIS ASS at the perfect range to get hit with a meaty f4 on wakeup, blendering you NON STOP.

5. Since you block high, he can do 12 until the end of time. Once you crouch to make him whiff, he'll do f4 which will make f43 not whiff

6. In the corner, it NEVER whiffs period. Good luck getting out of the corner vs Kang lol.


This whiffing crap is getting HUGELY overblown and overreacted. Matchup is still 6-4 for KANG.

 

[Toruko61]

Who the f* ranked Sub Zero as top tier pre-patch for god sake? Everyone had him outside top 10. Just because you are low tier and dont know how to play him, doesnt mean he is any good.
His placement in tournament said it all, not a single top 8 finish in a major. Not a single tournament win, even in small local tournaments.
And Sub Zero have the worst throw range of all, so its pretty obviously when he will go for throw, OH and his low.
Scar loses to a lot of players lately, he is not on his level after CB.

well, guess i´m wrong there. but there must ve been some uproar as tom brady was defending him on one/some video/-s.

yeah, i relied too much on f43u3 before my level up, but if u had taken some time and learned the mu against liu kang, you wouldn´t have this much trouble against him, especially as a sub zero player.
u can play mid range and full range (well, u will most likely eat some flying kicks though) against liu kang. your oki and poke game is also superior to his.

since the influx of fotm liu kangs ( thanks to sonicfox), every1 and their mother now know how to deal with f43u3 and its shenanigans. lawabidingcitizen even made a comprehensive guide. he did already all the work for u and other players. why not use the free lesson to get better?

they also know that liu has no overheads and that he relies on grabs/hop attacks for opening u up if u stay patient and keep blocking low till he makes a mistake or u punish him for cancelling into fireballs/stance or using other unsafe options.

former seasons were definitely easier on pc. having to learn the mu against liu and the remaining pc player base being at least semi-casual didn´t make it easy for me to reach demi god because of the liu kang skin.

knowing the mu is above tier lists. i have more problems against kollector than against popular top tiers.

 

[lordlosh]

Lordlosh talking like hes good at the game, but all he does is just copying what proplayers say on twitter.
99,99 of ppl posting on this site would 10-0 him without any effort.
Never goes to tournaments but has no shame of trashtalking tournament players. What a jobber.

This is a cool statement with zero argument behind it. Even if 110% of ppl here 10-0 me, that doesnt mean a s* and that doesnt mean i cant post my opinion on here, get it ?
And you are butthurt, who cant type a single post added to argument. Butthurt Liu Kang player, who follow me and quote me on every thread. Your obsession of me speak for itself.
I have a profession and earn enough money. Video games its for fun, atleast for me.
While i agree High to Pro level of gameplay is where the game is balanced, just because you go to tournament doesnt make you a good player. You can lose every single match in bracket, hows that make your opinion worth ?
What is your achievement anyway, hateing on people who knows how to argument their opinion, while only think you can do is pointless insult post?

Toruko61, its good that you want normal discussion, but explain where i state that i have problem with Kang, and that i cant beat it ?
Liu is a problem to all levels of play. Low, mid, high, pro. That doesnt mean you cant beat him. But its obvious that the char is broken at any level of gameplay and he have easy time against all of the roster. And this is not only my opinion. Most pro, who are not Kang have problem with Kangs.
SonicFox knows the match perfectly, and he cant do a s**** about it. Same for Foxy, and Dragon, players who loses to lesser level players, just because they use Kang.
And every pro out there knows all the option of F4, and 9 out of 10 times they do nothing or eat big punish.
The only thing SonicFox was doing against F4 Kang, was to just poke. That speak for itself.

 

[Toruko61]

he just used devorah against him. i thought he was gonna main jax? what happend to that? what will happen when nightwolf becomes tournament legal and he mains him like he announced? nw has some good tools against liu and sonics nw looks really good.

people shouldn´t forget that sonicfox is a pro and one of his most capable opponents is a liu loyalist, so he would quite benefit from nerfs to liu since his former hard counter-pick jassie was nerfed.

sorry, but you are overplaying liu too much and downplaying liu players like rewind and ninja, especially ninja.

 

[Name v.5.0]

I think a lot of what you said in this post is accurate.
With that said:
I feel every character has to make reads. MU numbers like 7-3 Johnny is based off highest level of play between the two characters, assuming reads, skill ate identical. Because reads, guess situations can make S tier characters lose to C tier characters.

I am not the best Johnny in the world probably even just mediocre and play other characters more. But based off tools, hitboxes and tech I feel Johnny has a lot going for him in this matchup.
His normal BS hitbox issues are for the most part non existent vs Kang and the shoe is on the other foot. Kang's: 212/B34/F43/12 & Fireballs all wiff on Johnny when crouch blocking in some form or fashion. This is huge.
Johnny can outspace every move Kang has and his forceballs are faster than Kang's fireball, johnny can abuse footsie range and Shimmy him all day. Liu has some of the best tools in the game but we have to consider many of them wiff on him and LK doesn't do well from footsie range.
Kombat one of the best johnnys said its in his favor and Sonic, Rewind, SylverRye, Foxy and others said the same with Sonic listing it as 7-3 in johnnys favor.

I'd like to think these players know the matchup and how to play the matchup at the highest level. Kombat was the only one to beat Sonic with Johnny.

To @M.D. point though....Where's all the counter picking in tournaments? Are these pros just not up to snuff with their Cages? Are they worried about the counter pick to the counter pick?

I'm no where near special, but I've gotten into God tier in KL all 3 seasons with just Cage. (god that sounds lame saying it but it's my only metric.) I've played countless Liu Kangs, I know the MU super well and can play as Kang myself...Why is it that the best Kang's I've played, seem to always work around the whiffs? It's almost as if they see me stand block and and go for the low, and if they see me low block they use F4 shit. Abusing the whiff itself, is a read...and a dangerous one at that. It's crazy to me to hear the FGC preach about safety as the number one priority in a fighting game and then say Cage has advantage when he's actually extremely exposed.

As Cage I barely ever get to use the whiffing to my advantage. The only way I win is with good reads, and better footsies after throwing dozens of forceballs and most importantly, taking risks. As @Chernyy Volk pointed out, most situations are in Kang's favor no matter what you do. You gotta YOLO or he'll oppress you.

All that being said...I cannot believe this MU is better than a 5-5. On my bad days, it's always a 4-6. I guess I'm not Kombat or Sonic Fox.

 

[Name v.5.0]

the whiff. Good luck doing that when:

3. f4, the two hits of f4, never miss. He can still stagger throws or another BAZILLION f4 until you fucking DIE in real life without ever doing 3.

I just had a guy do this to me this morning in KL. F4, F4, 12, F4, throw forward. F4, throw backwards.....The chip alone is amazing.

People....The Kang players are aware of their weakness against Cage. They aren't just going to fucking allow it to happen.

 

[Vslayer]

Jax higher than Cass? LOL okay.

@STB Sgt Reed guess it's 7-3 for Jax now

 

[DrFolmer]

Hmmm 7-3 - that would mean it's pretty much free if you play Johnny at the highest level.

But you don't see Johnny at the highest level against Kangs - hell, any character. Since we talk "the highest level" it would indicate no one has a Johnny at the highest level, because why wouldn't you go for a hard counter when it's there? There is also the more likely reason - what makes him 'win' is super impractical and not really reflective of the actual matchup.

Johnny Cage is like a fucking boogieman in this game. So many talk him up to be this super scary 7-3/6-4 the whole cast regardless of whiffing. But you just never see it in action. The ones who fronted Cage play other characters now. A lot of Kang's whiffing against Cage has been known since CEO, so it's not like it's a recent discovery that Cage supposedly 7-3's Liu Kang - what makes it 7-3 has been known forever. And it's not like the NRS community avoid counter picks - everybody had a Deadshot, everybody had a Doctor Fate, some had a Green Arrow. Whenever people picked Bane, Flash, Robin, whatever - people IMMEDIATLY went to these 7-3 picks.

It's just so weird having a character who supposedly does incredibly well against a lot of the top tiers to the point he 7-3's one of them - and he gets 0 play. SHOW ME HOW HARD HE BEATS PEOPLE DAMMIT

 

[M.D.]

You will only see this from Sonic Fox, as THEY! did it with Cold in INj2.

Nobody cared about that character, people tried and got VAPORIZED, yet Sonic just spammed random strings and everyone was letting go of block for some reason, maybe out of respect or something beats me.

This is what will happen here too. Sonic will be the only one who will ever pick Cage in a tournament vs Kang, and the Kang player will probably just neutral stand block in neutral getting hit by b34 non stop, with commentators yelling OMFG THEY DID IT WITH CAGE, THEY DID IT OMFG.

It's already happening, there's a video on twitter against Rewind when Cage had 1 pixel of life with only 1 defense meter left, and Rewind Kang had 80% life left and LOST because he didn't just literally spam f4 in 10 possible points during the entire match.

Literally ANY ONLINE RANDOM with Kang would have won that match against sonic at that point.

So to conclude, what will happen is that from now on, every single logical argument for Cage will be spat on because of Sonic Fox and people literally getting brain freeze playing against THEM!, and Cage will literally get ZERO fixes. ZERO. And he will get some small nerfs on damage too.

 

[Vslayer]

You will only see this from Sonic Fox, as THEY! did it with Cold in INj2.

Nobody cared about that character, people tried and got VAPORIZED, yet Sonic just spammed random strings and everyone was letting go of block for some reason, maybe out of respect or something beats me.

This is what will happen here too. Sonic will be the only one who will ever pick Cage in a tournament vs Kang, and the Kang player will probably just neutral stand block in neutral getting hit by b34 non stop, with commentators yelling OMFG THEY DID IT WITH CAGE, THEY DID IT OMFG.

It's already happening, there's a video on twitter against Rewind when Cage had 1 pixel of life with only 1 defense meter left, and Rewind Kang had 80% life left and LOST because he didn't just literally spam f4 in 10 possible points during the entire match.

Literally ANY ONLINE RANDOM with Kang would have won that match against sonic at that point.

So to conclude, what will happen is that from now on, every single logical argument for Cage will be spat on because of Sonic Fox and people literally getting brain freeze playing against THEM!, and Cage will literally get ZERO fixes. ZERO. And he will get some small nerfs on damage too.

Every time Sonic picks a character, people put them #1. I'm surprised to see Johnny this time around, but just you wait until he picks Kano lul.

This community keeps showing how much they're just like sheep being herded by their furry shepherd.

 

[M.D.]

Unfortunately NRS follows Sonic closely, if he wins with Cage we can kiss any fixes goodbye.

 

[thlityoursloat]

Unfortunately NRS follows Sonic closely, if he wins with Cage we can kiss any fixes goodbye.

I'm going to laugh my ass off at top players getting 124 124 124'd midscreen, that would just be hilarious. Especially when bobby from KL knows that can he can just d4 to check literally all of my options, or just jab me into a full combo.
or better yet, getting clipped by b34 because they're stand blocking for no fucking reason.
E: I just saw the Sonicfox JC comeback against rewind. Just how fucking daft do you have to be as a LK player to let Johnny whiff camera 3 times in a row? How?????? He wouldn't have made that comeback without the camera KB.

 

[AbeW]

Liu Kang is mid tier. Deoxys and Shonic phox are both still butthurt after Ninjakilla made them look like discount coupons (free as fk) with Liu Kang. They've both realized deep down in their blessed hearts that they are both inferior players next to Nkilla. And yet again, to covet this deep realization, they're claiming it's because LiuKang is top tier......(rite rite wink wink)

Believe me guys, even if your propaganda gets Liu Kang some nerfs, your tournament cash is still gonna vanish if Ninjakilla shows up at any tournament. No more easy money boys. Lol

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

Every time Sonic picks a character, people put them #1. I'm surprised to see Johnny this time around, but just you wait until he picks Kano lul.

This community keeps showing how much they're just like sheep being herded by their furry shepherd.

For me it has nothing to do with Sonic and more to do with evidence along with many of the best players in the world supporting it. Obviously its not a 7-3 Sonic blows things out of proportion. This community has never been slow to criticize Sonic including top players. Go look at Sonics tier list comments.

12 wiffing alone is a huge deal. The entire reason many have him at #1 is based off the jailing buff making his +3 ob 12 an auto shimmy when jailed that puts them in the blender.
It wiffs every time. The F4 and F43 wiff from max range when Johnny is crouch blocking (depending on his breath box) and when he blocks high then low after first hit.
212 on of his best staggers and pressure tools.
B34 his best move from range other than flykick and only low which gets him his nest corner damage vs males.
B1 his best stagger and only way to jail high fireball other than B2.
All wiff point blank.

I don't think Johnny is top tier but most of his problems are nonexistent In this MU.

Then let's add Johnny has a better fireball, better range, better gap closer and his ex fireballs don't wiff on Kang.

All of this has to mean something. Its probably closer to 6-4 but when many top players all say the same thing: Kombat, SylverRye, Deoxys, Sonic, Azeez, and plenty more say its clearly in Johnny favor. I started to question what I knew cuz its very possible they know something we don't added to all I've listed above.

And remember if Sonic or any of these players say Something crazy most top players criticize them all over twitter. Non of them have been slow to show their opinion.
As to why Sonic hasn't used Johnny before its probably because he had characters he felt where Uber broke and didn't need a different character. Many may just not like Johnny as a character and don't play him because if it. He was very popular when he had tons of dirt in MK9/MKX.

I understand the irritation of Sonic putting your character on blast or even using them. No one knows this better than honeybee.

Sonic is using Johnny for the matchup and even moped Rewind who beat him last time with Liu. I imagine others will follow suit. Deoxys is joking but Saudi he is gonna quiT. Its kinda funny cuz Sonic landed F43 KB on his geras lol.

Don't shoot the messengers, the following tweets are not my opinion:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1174841436786872320

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1174899755077357568

Some not all Johnny mains are not receptive but here is Tweedys recent comment on the matter:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1175054470813757447

 

[lordlosh]

Liu Kang is mid tier. Deoxys and Shonic phox are both still butthurt after Ninjakilla made them look like discount coupons (free as fk) with Liu Kang. They've both realized deep down in their blessed hearts that they are both inferior players next to Nkilla. And yet again, to covet this deep realization, they're claiming it's because LiuKang is top tier......(rite rite wink wink)

Believe me guys, even if your propaganda gets Liu Kang some nerfs, your tournament cash is still gonna vanish if Ninjakilla shows up at any tournament. No more easy money boys. Lol

Ninja is that you?

LawAbidingCitizen, Who the f**** said its 7-3, except for some tweet of Sonicfox, and we dont know if this tweet is seriously or not. The way he write that tweet doesnt look much serious at all.
Neither SylverRye or Deoxys, neither any of the Pros said this matchup is 7-3.
Can you stop posting false pls ?
Everyone on this forum understand that you are a die hard Liu Kang main and his defender, yet pretend to be Kabal player, but no ones believes you.

And you are trying again with your paper data, that simply doesnt work at real situation. Everyone knows about this whiff "tech" yet no one do it in a pro tournament, neither no one use Cage. Even Kombat drop him and play different character, and Kombat was best Johnny Cage player hands down.
Even he dropped Cage and instead go for Baraka gainst Kang.
And this is pre-patch:

M.D. explain very well why the so call "whiff" tech doesnt work in real situation.

As far as Sonic beats Rewind, there are not on the same level again in any MK game. SonicFox also beat Rewind Kang with Dvorah both in the last tournament and in online matches, yet Kang probably is 10-0 against Dvorah.

And Johnny Cage doesnt beat Kang in zoning. If the players are good in zoning, Johnny has no chance. Its a 3frame different of the start up, but if both amplify, Liu have advantage in startup. Also Liu have low, and low high at the same time, and Flying Dragon Kick to counter, Johnny has only high projectile ...

As i said it many times the game should be balanced at highest level, but you should understand when the level is equal.

 

[M.D.]

Well, earlier than expected but the shitstorm started with literally exactly what I predicted it would, see that post above a couple lol.

Man doesn't even play Cage and just dickrode twitter with exactly what I said is bullshit, LOL.

Well this is it, nice knowin ya all. Kiss Cage fixes goodbye, better luck in mk12.

 

[DrFolmer]

As to why Sonic hasn't used Johnny before its probably because he had characters he felt where Uber broke and didn't need a different character. Many may just not like Johnny as a character and don't play him because if it

But what makes it a 7-3 has always been known. LK has always been a beast and has always been the character to challenge the top players so far in the game. Why go with Cassie and D'Vorah if Johnny Cage convincingly takes the matchup 7-3? D'Vorah is in no way a good all-round character to fight the top tiers - so she doesnt really fit the "uber broke" category. Why does Kombat resort to Baraka instead of Johnny Cage in the LK matchup when his main is so dominant in the matchup? I can see focusing on prepatch Cassie over Johnny due to her being an all-around better character in more matchups despite having LK as a 5-5 or 6-4 but he's someone who has the means to play multiple characters - so he surely is capable.

Most of the pro players in this conversation are the ones who in particular dont shy away from counter picking - which is all the more confusing for me as to why we keep seeing this supposed 7-3 number. I know player preference is a thing, and not everyone is a tier whore - but I just find it kinda odd that a majority are pulling their hair out over Johnny's strengths yet NOBODY uses him. It's like Johnny is a god tier character that seemingly no one prefers to play even in hard counter situations. Seeing pro players eating camera KB's make me scratch my head even further as online warriors KNOW how to NOT let Johnny get away with that.

I haven't done extensive research for this claim, but just off the top of my head, hasn't LK won more sets in the matchup in tournament play anyway? And when Kombat has fought LK players he has switched to Baraka to take the set - it's not really a strong indication of a 7-3 IMO.

I dont want to deny it's a good matchup for Cage. I feel it's a 5-5, but I could settle for a 6-4 with more EVIDENCE supporting the claim, and not videos of people eating camera KB's which shouldnt happen. Tournament play thus far in this game's life does not support the 7-3 claim tbh

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

But what makes it a 7-3 has always been known. LK has always been a beast and has always been the character to challenge the top players so far in the game. Why go with Cassie and D'Vorah if Johnny Cage convincingly takes the matchup 7-3? D'Vorah is in no way a good all-round character to fight the top tiers - so she doesnt really fit the "uber broke" category. Why does Kombat resort to Baraka instead of Johnny Cage in the LK matchup when his main is so dominant in the matchup? I can see focusing on prepatch Cassie over Johnny due to her being an all-around better character in more matchups despite having LK as a 5-5 or 6-4 but he's someone who has the means to play multiple characters - so he surely is capable.

Most of the pro players in this conversation are the ones who in particular dont shy away from counter picking - which is all the more confusing for me as to why we keep seeing this supposed 7-3 number. I know player preference is a thing, and not everyone is a tier whore - but I just find it kinda odd that a majority are pulling their hair out over Johnny's strengths yet NOBODY uses him. It's like Johnny is a god tier character that seemingly no one prefers to play even in hard counter situations. Seeing pro players eating camera KB's make me scratch my head even further as online warriors KNOW how to NOT let Johnny get away with that.

I haven't done extensive research for this claim, but just off the top of my head, hasn't LK won more sets in the matchup in tournament play anyway? And when Kombat has fought LK players he has switched to Baraka to take the set - it's not really a strong indication of a 7-3 IMO.

I dont want to deny it's a good matchup for Cage. I feel it's a 5-5, but I could settle for a 6-4 with more EVIDENCE supporting the claim, and not videos of people eating camera KB's which shouldnt happen. Tournament play thus far in this game's life does not support the 7-3 claim tbh

Most of the reason why they didn't use Johnny before is because many if his buttons wiffed Prepatch now he got some of his buttons fixed the question is coming up. There has only been 3 majors where LK has been dominated after patch which also adds to this particular matchup. There is also a new OS that is starting to be applied and for the most part LK isn't really benefiting from Raptors OS while other definitely are.

Kombat was having issues with his cage Prepatch vs several characters so he naturally picked Baraka one of his best counters to punish hard in a matchup that is very dependent on capitalizing on your reads since Baraka is a two touch win char its obvious why Baraka is used even though I don't feel its in Barakas Favor but its pretty strong to win with just two reads/punishes.

We will likely start seeing more use Johnny vs Liu Kang since popularity has rised and Johnny has several buttons fixed. Add to the fact Liu's only weakness is some things being reactable, and lack if range. Johnny benefits most from this weakness since several of Kang's moves wiff point blank and F4/F43 wiff from footsie range where Johnny is best.
What puts the nail in the coffin for me is the fact all of Johnny's wiffing problems are non existent in this matchup especially fireballs for plus frames.

Players not using a character previously isn't really an indicator of anything. Liu Kang has been very strong since day 1 in fact he received several nerfs to Luohan Quan in last patch most notibly his F3 which gets him his best damage without KB and now is punishable and has a gap.
Even though liu Kang was arguably stronger prepatch he was rated mid tier then? No one won tournaments consistently then and mostly overlooked him. The one thing he benefited from was easier jailing into 12 which wiffs on Johnny.

 

[MKF30]

I think Sub is higher than Skarlet on this guy's tier list but also in general. Sub is VERY good and annoying to penetrate, you have to be patient to beat a good Sub. Skarlet is not that good honestly if you read her teleports, easily punished, she has gaps in her strings, if you have a good air zoning move like Jade, Sub, etc she can be beat and countered in the zoning game and her tongue don't hit in the air. Jade can totally outzone her pretty easily yet he has her lower than Skarlet.

I agree about Raiden being low though Raiden should be last lol. I don't think Shao Kahn is THAT bad, he was pre last patch but if you know how to use him the guy can do 50% damage, has crazy damage combos and decent mix ups.

 

[DayAlreadySucks]

he just used devorah against him. i thought he was gonna main jax? what happend to that? what will happen when nightwolf becomes tournament legal and he mains him like he announced? nw has some good tools against liu and sonics nw looks really good.

people shouldn´t forget that sonicfox is a pro and one of his most capable opponents is a liu loyalist, so he would quite benefit from nerfs to liu since his former hard counter-pick jassie was nerfed.

sorry, but you are overplaying liu too much and downplaying liu players like rewind and ninja, especially ninja.

Im out of the loop, is Nightwolf not tournament legal?

 

[MKF30]

Does Sub give LK that much of a hard time? I haven't really seen much of that match up.