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Match-up Discussion Deathstroke vs Flash (Hot topic that must be discussed)

Blind_Ducky

Princess of the Sisterhood
out of curiosity what footsie tools does ds have? i picked the game back up and immediately dropped ds because i felt he was lacking. his d2 can be stuffed if you time it right and he has t-rex hand normals. just curious.
Any normal pretty much can be stuffed. I consistently stuff Flashes "godlike footsie tools" b2 & f2 with ravens d1 for 40% each time. Deathstrokes d2, low guns, j3, & f3 are great. The power of low guns is fucking real.
 

Blind_Ducky

Princess of the Sisterhood
Fool, The Flash does 50% after d+1,2 and 55% after f+2, with massive corner carry and meter building. Catwoman's options are not comparable. Besides, The Flash has superior movement and deals better with back walking and back dashes.

Deathstroke most likely loses to 4-6 characters. This absurd up playing must stop.
Catwomans tools are comparable. They are basically the same, lightning charge = low whip. They do the same job. The difference is the reward. And can we please stop pretending flash ALWAYS gets 50%+ when he hits you?
 

Blind_Ducky

Princess of the Sisterhood
If you'll read my post and understood the purpose of these tools, you'd know why I said that. The purpose of both lightning charge & low whip is to keep the opponent from holding back. Low guns also does the same thing. Lightning charge is the flashes equivalent of low whip. The difference between the two is the reward for hitting or if flashes charge is blocked. Obviously lightning charge is better when you look at it from just the reward perspective.
 

TotteryManx

cr. HP Master
Any normal pretty much can be stuffed. I consistently stuff Flashes "godlike footsie tools" b2 & f2 with ravens d1 for 40% each time. Deathstrokes d2, low guns, j3, & f3 are great. The power of low guns is fucking real.
i mean jump ins can stuff his d2 if timed properly. compared to someone like ww's d2 its not that great. low guns is fantastic still especially full screen. as far as whiff punishing what is his best tool? most of his strings/ normals can be walked out of range.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
I mean I do very well using a worse version of low guns.

You can't look at the risk/reward of those moves in a vacuum. The actual reward isn't the low damage. It's stopping them from holding back.
Low gunshots do not stop Zod from back dashing and he cannot even punish the move on block very well.

Low whip is trash. You use it because you have to. Catwoman has no other options. Deathstroke's low gunshots are much better, but they are average against top tier characters.

@General M2Dave who is upplaying? most ds players have ds losing to mmh, batgirl, zod, flash, bane (some), and etc. I would say he loses like 4 or 5 matchups. I have him just outside top 10, very solid character who can fight every matchup #YEEEAAAPPP
King Hippo said Deathstroke versus Aquaman, Martian Manhunter, and The Flash were all even match ups.

I am not sure what he believes about Batgirl, but it would not surprise if he thought she goes even with Deathstroke too.
 

Blind_Ducky

Princess of the Sisterhood
i mean jump ins can stuff his d2 if timed properly. compared to someone like ww's d2 its not that great. low guns is fantastic still especially full screen. as far as whiff punishing what is his best tool? most of his strings/ normals can be walked out of range.
Dude ds d2 is broke. Idk @KingHippo knows more about stuff like that.
 
i mean jump ins can stuff his d2 if timed properly. compared to someone like ww's d2 its not that great. low guns is fantastic still especially full screen. as far as whiff punishing what is his best tool? most of his strings/ normals can be walked out of range.
For whiff punishing use:
Low guns
d2 to full combo
b1, u2 to full combo
high guns
sword flip
jump 3
dash up grab (this is very good for pushing an opponent back or placing them in the corner with a back grab)
Also for videos, u could find slips, king hippo, me, mattix, redraptor, and etc.
 
Low gunshots do not stop Zod from back dashing and he cannot even punish the move on block very well.

Low whip is trash. You use it because you have to. Catwoman has no other options. Deathstroke's low gunshots are much better, but they are average against top tier characters.



King Hippo said Deathstroke versus Aquaman, Martian Manhunter, and The Flash were all even match ups.

I am not sure what he believes about Batgirl, but it would not surprise if he thought she goes even with Deathstroke too.
I mean all DS players have their opinions, we agree on most matchups but vary on a few. That doesn't mean all DS players believe that he goes 5 5 with characters like MMH. (and I have AM at 5 5 as well).
 

cR WoundCowboy

WoundCowbae <3
I mean I do very well using a worse version of low guns.

You can't look at the risk/reward of those moves in a vacuum. The actual reward isn't the low damage. It's stopping them from holding back.
I sort of agree, the problem is that low guns isn't a great disincentive for me to stop holding back. I can eat them a bunch of times and still be fine. In the case of the flash, he can get hit by guns, block them once and take half a life bar into a mixup.
 

KingHippo

Alternative-Fact Checker
I'm not sure what people mean also by "Flash's up close game is sooooo much better". I mean, it's insane, right? He has a 7 frame LOW d1, and a 15 frame OVERHEAD with moderate range. That's definition of insanity.

I don't know how DS with an equally fast and low d1 and an even faster overhead could compete with that. I guess I better pack it up :(
 

KingHippo

Alternative-Fact Checker
I sort of agree, the problem is that low guns isn't a great disincentive for me to stop holding back. I can eat them a bunch of times and still be fine. In the case of the flash, he can get hit by guns, block them once and take half a life bar into a mixup.
I'll hold that 31% (half life), that's not that bad. Again, I think fear of Flash is definitely a factor here. He's scary, but I think people need to think a little more with their heads here; he's probably guessing just as much as you are.
 
I'll hold that 31% (half life), that's not that bad. Again, I think fear of Flash is definitely a factor here. He's scary, but I think people need to think a little more with their heads here; he's probably guessing just as much as you are.
I mean fear is huge when it comes to a matchup. For example, a raven player has to fear getting hit by a teleport from batgirl. BG's tele isn't safe of course, but the fact that it is always in the raven player's head is an advantage for batgirl. Also I've stated my reasons, it isn't just the damage either.
 

KingHippo

Alternative-Fact Checker
Then what is it? On a tool by tool basis, we've found that DS and Flash have the same threat of 50/50's up close, but Flash gets high reward with trait and only with trait. I don't think we need to factor psychological factors into matchups, these are meant to be logical and concise, and the characters almost match tool for tool, with the only outlier being one has a faster dash and more damage once or twice in a game. Not enough to swing it, IMO.
 
Then what is it? On a tool by tool basis, we've found that DS and Flash have the same threat of 50/50's up close, but Flash gets high reward with trait and only with trait. I don't think we need to factor psychological factors into matchups, these are meant to be logical and concise, and the characters almost match tool for tool, with the only outlier being one has a faster dash and more damage once or twice in a game. Not enough to swing it, IMO.
I mean I guess, but there isn't anything that conclusively swings it to 5 5 either. So I guess time will tell. I'm probably one of the only DS players who gets constant offline flash xp, so it is rough to measure it because matchups are based off of offline matches (at least they should be haha).
 

cR WoundCowboy

WoundCowbae <3
I'll hold that 31% (half life), that's not that bad. Again, I think fear of Flash is definitely a factor here. He's scary, but I think people need to think a little more with their heads here; he's probably guessing just as much as you are.
Well it's not just about the damage, it's also that the knockdowns put him at an advantageous situation. Also, even if the trait damage is average, it still is more than Deathstroke gets for being right with the guns. I don't think it's a terrible MU, but it's hard not to see flash winning.
 

TKB

Warrior
Then what is it? On a tool by tool basis, we've found that DS and Flash have the same threat of 50/50's up close, but Flash gets high reward with trait and only with trait. I don't think we need to factor psychological factors into matchups, these are meant to be logical and concise, and the characters almost match tool for tool, with the only outlier being one has a faster dash and more damage once or twice in a game. Not enough to swing it, IMO.
Flash's 50/50 game is still more dangerous than deathstrokes, even without trait.

Deathstroke can b22 SS MB dash sword flip for 23? 24%? Or he can b1u2 starter for around 32%?

Flash can use his OH and low starters for around 35% If I'm not mistaken? With a MB of course.

Also not factoring BGB's, Deathstroke is much more dangerous with one.

Flash has better pressure as well.
 

Blind_Ducky

Princess of the Sisterhood
Flash's 50/50 game is still more dangerous than deathstrokes, even without trait.

Deathstroke can b22 SS MB dash sword flip for 23? 24%? Or he can b1u2 starter for around 32%?

Flash can use his OH and low starters for around 35% If I'm not mistaken? With a MB of course.

Also not factoring BGB's, Deathstroke is much more dangerous with one.

Flash has better pressure as well.
I'd argue Deathstroke actually has better pressure between his f3, j3, & f23. Shits annoying
 

KingHippo

Alternative-Fact Checker
Well it's not just about the damage, it's also that the knockdowns put him at an advantageous situation. Also, even if the trait damage is average, it still is more than Deathstroke gets for being right with the guns. I don't think it's a terrible MU, but it's hard not to see flash winning.
I think this is the crux of the issue here. If Deathstroke was all guns, I would agree, but the fact is that he's primarily a 50/50 character who happens to have a long range check that does its job well and isn't shitty like Catwoman's. The fact that it can be used as a zoning tool is a sign of how good it is, but it's not DS primary function. If he could consistently beat me from mid range and beyond I would agree, but to even fight me he has to be in my favorable area! Our attack speed is pretty much the same, I have a few more lows and he has Lightning Charge, but I wouldn't consider those either huge in the matchup.

Raven shuts down the LGS, but she still loses. She's not exactly Flash up close, but that's just one example of a char who can shut down Low Guns, but it doesn't have a huge effect on the match here.