Match-up Discussion Dear TYM, matchup discussion is terrible and needs to change

Discussion in 'Fighting Philosophy' started by Protagonist_1, Jun 25, 2017.


How would you gauge current matchup discussion on TYM after reading the OP?

  1. I think it's great! (...I didn't actually read the OP, ain't nobody got time for that Protagon..)

    3 vote(s)
  2. I think it's about right.

    1 vote(s)
  3. It could use some improvement.

    6 vote(s)
  4. It's been lackluster, and not to competitive standards.

    10 vote(s)
  5. It's horrendous, imagine a world chess champion saying "just take the queen bro and your good."

    13 vote(s)
  1. CrimsonShadow

    CrimsonShadow Administrator and Community Engineer

    I don't believe we've ever played..

    But me mopping you in a set wouldn't make these matchup opinions any better :p
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2017
  2. 4x4lo8o

    4x4lo8o Noob

    What version of the game are you playing that isn't full of guessing? Every character has 50/50s or ambiguous cross ups or frame traps or unreactable footsies moves or other tools that require hard reads to deal with
  3. GLoRToR

    GLoRToR The ire of the Starf!

    tldr stop being emo about the game and do work
    Saboteur-6 likes this.
  4. Eddy Wang

    Eddy Wang Skarlet scientist

    Before we used to get into every possible detail to change the tide of a MU chart, even during the MK9. Just ask @xKhaoTik or Scar, we used to have some super detailed MU regarding our characters even before.

    Honestly, After Injustice 1 with the viariations system in MKX, TYM got a lot lazy on discussing MUs, and people are coming out of that game straight into Injustice, so i understand mostly why.

    Anyway, not every tym player used to go in detail, its not that many of them do not know, some are just lazy to explain, others like to keep for themselves, when i see this vague answers its not that many of them are wrong, in general the people explaining don't want to explain maybe in detail why you want to stay away, or move in, or play at mid range, maybe because as a community people think, that every character general gameplan its known already so they give short answers to everything.

    Like, when was the last time you've seen people discussing MU to justify numbers such as 7-3? and pretty sure i've seen 7-3 on some Tournament players tiers lists even on Injustice 2

    When was the last time you ever seen a top player discussing or explaing why X or Y character like Green Arrow in example is A tier.

    Why do REO has a tier list with S and S-, A and A-?
    Last week someone though that S its a tier reserved for Kabal like characters with no losing MU, where did he learned that?

    In sum, TYM in general just got really lazy.
    Raiderhorn likes this.
  5. Saboteur-6

    Saboteur-6 Filthy Casual

    ^I'd say it's a combination of:

    Lazy (or busy) + lack of objectivity (IE assuming your opinion/experience is 100% fact) + not wanting to reveal tech = state of current TYM matchup discussion.
  6. Fred Marvel

    Fred Marvel It's actually Freddy Marvel

    if this game was 100% guessing there wouldn't be any consistency in tournament and it wouldn't have to do with skill. No every character does not have 50/50s and ambiguous cross ups lol I'm done with this convo, nice chat tho
  7. Fred Marvel

    Fred Marvel It's actually Freddy Marvel

    You're not good, I am. stop replying to my messages
  8. RagingRicans

    RagingRicans NetBattles

    I play this character and my friend plays this character. We play a lot, so I have all the information I need to determine its 8-3
  9. Johnny Based Cage

    Johnny Based Cage Day 10 Mediocre Darkseid Player
    Premium Supporter

    The problem is 95% of us suck and think our opinions matter. For example, imagine a Street Fighter forum if you will, filled with filthy casuals comparing their own online sets to discuss the Zangief/Guile matchup. Do you think it would even remotely reflect what happens when top players like Du and Snake Eyes or ISDD and Stupendous face off in grand finals?

    HELL NAW. Everyone who lacks those kinds of fundamentals, that level of patience and understanding, the ability to make incredible reads, and so on and so forth would shut that shit down real quick like it's 9-1 Guile's favor because they can't even get in once ever let alone do anything worthwhile if they do.

    In the hands of true pros, however, it doesn't matter if one character controls the pace 90% of the time as long as the other character doesn't just control the pace but outright murders that other 10% of the time. That's a different kind of balance most less-than-top players don't comprehend and you see it here all the time with characters who often have to work their way in just like Gief does, such as The Flash and Scarecrow. And yet we've seen what both are capable of in the hands of true pros.

    So TL;DR: good luck discussing matchups with the masses here, buddy.
    Protagonist_1 likes this.
  10. 4x4lo8o

    4x4lo8o Noob

    No one said it was 100% guessing, there's no way to read what I wrote and get that - you're changing the argument because you can't support your own point. We're talking about matches between evenly skilled players that are close enough that 1 wrong guess can cost the better character the match. That's half the reason why we play sets in tournament instead of one and done - to help control the parts of the game that aren't strictly skill based. Anybody who plays a low tier character knows that sometimes you can get matches off good players in losing match ups due to one or two lucky guesses. But I guess you don't get that because you're bad at the game even though you use a fundamentally strong character like GL and you don't understand fighting games in general :coffee:
    Johnny Based Cage likes this.
  11. Marlow

    Marlow Premium Supporter
    Premium Supporter

    Seems like in the various character discussions peope are more interested in discussing tier lists and buffs/nerfs than discussing matchups.

    @Protagonist_1 Thanks for the hard work, as someone who's trying to learn Cyborg, the Cyborg forums have been a godsend.
  12. Skedar70

    Skedar70 Premium Supporter
    Premium Supporter

    Its completely subjective. "my friend bodies me with swamp thing while I am playing deadshot. That is an 8-2 swamp thing favorable mu"
    Protagonist_1 likes this.
  13. I've read the Cyborg mu threads that you've posted and they are honestly incredible. Very in-depth stuff. I can't guarantee I'll be as specific as you are in your threads but I think this site could be vastly improved by this kind of analysis.
    Protagonist_1 likes this.
  14. I'll do my best haha :D
    Thanks, I glanced at the Cyborg buff thread but I was like...nah I don't want any part of that. I don't feel I'm at a level (nor have traveled enough) to feel I'm playing this character at the highest level. School and work has been rough, but I'll still try to update these character forum threads. Hope is to get to every character.

    I have a thread that I want to make on matchup numbers and why I feel they are pretty pointless as compared to actual matchup discussion. @Johnny Based Cage pretty much hit the nail on the head though in that department, how matchup numbers are determined are pretty laughable (I myself have been guilty of this in the past) which is why I will no longer talk in matchup numbers.
    Johnny Based Cage likes this.
  15. Thanks I really appreciate this. I can begin to explain how much work goes into these threads. If anyone has the chance to make one, you'll start to realize how little you actually know about a matchup because there are so many scenarios in game.

    Also, let me know which character you play for which matchup and I'll be glad to make one for your community. You can use the same template as my own, there might be a few changes depending if your using a rushdown character, zoning character, or hybrid.
    Marlow likes this.

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