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Match-up Discussion Dear TYM, matchup discussion is terrible and needs to change

How would you gauge current matchup discussion on TYM after reading the OP?

  • I think it's great! (...I didn't actually read the OP, ain't nobody got time for that Protagon..)

    Votes: 3 7.5%
  • I think it's about right.

    Votes: 1 2.5%
  • It could use some improvement.

    Votes: 8 20.0%
  • It's been lackluster, and not to competitive standards.

    Votes: 11 27.5%
  • It's horrendous, imagine a world chess champion saying "just take the queen bro and your good."

    Votes: 17 42.5%

  • Total voters
    40

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
i can 5-0 you in this game and beat you in a set in every NRS game since MK9. stop antagonizing me
I don't believe we've ever played..

But me mopping you in a set wouldn't make these matchup opinions any better :p
 
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4x4lo8o

Noob
youre right about the guessing if theres something in the game you 100% cant react to and have to guess (like a vortex) then yes it can go any way regardless of matchup. other than that nah
What version of the game are you playing that isn't full of guessing? Every character has 50/50s or ambiguous cross ups or frame traps or unreactable footsies moves or other tools that require hard reads to deal with
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
Before we used to get into every possible detail to change the tide of a MU chart, even during the MK9. Just ask @xKhaoTik or Scar, we used to have some super detailed MU regarding our characters even before.

Honestly, After Injustice 1 with the viariations system in MKX, TYM got a lot lazy on discussing MUs, and people are coming out of that game straight into Injustice, so i understand mostly why.

Anyway, not every tym player used to go in detail, its not that many of them do not know, some are just lazy to explain, others like to keep for themselves, when i see this vague answers its not that many of them are wrong, in general the people explaining don't want to explain maybe in detail why you want to stay away, or move in, or play at mid range, maybe because as a community people think, that every character general gameplan its known already so they give short answers to everything.

Like, when was the last time you've seen people discussing MU to justify numbers such as 7-3? and pretty sure i've seen 7-3 on some Tournament players tiers lists even on Injustice 2

When was the last time you ever seen a top player discussing or explaing why X or Y character like Green Arrow in example is A tier.

Why do REO has a tier list with S and S-, A and A-?
Last week someone though that S its a tier reserved for Kabal like characters with no losing MU, where did he learned that?

In sum, TYM in general just got really lazy.
 

Fred Marvel

It's actually Freddy Marvel
What version of the game are you playing that isn't full of guessing? Every character has 50/50s or ambiguous cross ups or frame traps or unreactable footsies moves or other tools that require hard reads to deal with
if this game was 100% guessing there wouldn't be any consistency in tournament and it wouldn't have to do with skill. No every character does not have 50/50s and ambiguous cross ups lol I'm done with this convo, nice chat tho
 

Johnny Based Cage

The Shangest of Tsungs
The problem is 95% of us suck and think our opinions matter. For example, imagine a Street Fighter forum if you will, filled with filthy casuals comparing their own online sets to discuss the Zangief/Guile matchup. Do you think it would even remotely reflect what happens when top players like Du and Snake Eyes or ISDD and Stupendous face off in grand finals?

HELL NAW. Everyone who lacks those kinds of fundamentals, that level of patience and understanding, the ability to make incredible reads, and so on and so forth would shut that shit down real quick like it's 9-1 Guile's favor because they can't even get in once ever let alone do anything worthwhile if they do.

In the hands of true pros, however, it doesn't matter if one character controls the pace 90% of the time as long as the other character doesn't just control the pace but outright murders that other 10% of the time. That's a different kind of balance most less-than-top players don't comprehend and you see it here all the time with characters who often have to work their way in just like Gief does, such as The Flash and Scarecrow. And yet we've seen what both are capable of in the hands of true pros.

So TL;DR: good luck discussing matchups with the masses here, buddy.
 

4x4lo8o

Noob
if this game was 100% guessing there wouldn't be any consistency in tournament and it wouldn't have to do with skill. No every character does not have 50/50s and ambiguous cross ups lol I'm done with this convo, nice chat tho
No one said it was 100% guessing, there's no way to read what I wrote and get that - you're changing the argument because you can't support your own point. We're talking about matches between evenly skilled players that are close enough that 1 wrong guess can cost the better character the match. That's half the reason why we play sets in tournament instead of one and done - to help control the parts of the game that aren't strictly skill based. Anybody who plays a low tier character knows that sometimes you can get matches off good players in losing match ups due to one or two lucky guesses. But I guess you don't get that because you're bad at the game even though you use a fundamentally strong character like GL and you don't understand fighting games in general :coffee:
 
I've read the Cyborg mu threads that you've posted and they are honestly incredible. Very in-depth stuff. I can't guarantee I'll be as specific as you are in your threads but I think this site could be vastly improved by this kind of analysis.
 
In the hands of true pros, however, it doesn't matter if one character controls the pace 90% of the time as long as the other character doesn't just control the pace but outright murders that other 10% of the time. That's a different kind of balance most less-than-top players don't comprehend and you see it here all the time with characters who often have to work their way in just like Gief does, such as The Flash and Scarecrow. And yet we've seen what both are capable of in the hands of true pros.

So TL;DR: good luck discussing matchups with the masses here, buddy.
I'll do my best haha :D
Seems like in the various character discussions peope are more interested in discussing tier lists and buffs/nerfs than discussing matchups.

@Protagonist_1 Thanks for the hard work, as someone who's trying to learn Cyborg, the Cyborg forums have been a godsend.
Thanks, I glanced at the Cyborg buff thread but I was like...nah I don't want any part of that. I don't feel I'm at a level (nor have traveled enough) to feel I'm playing this character at the highest level. School and work has been rough, but I'll still try to update these character forum threads. Hope is to get to every character.

Its completely subjective. "my friend bodies me with swamp thing while I am playing deadshot. That is an 8-2 swamp thing favorable mu"
I have a thread that I want to make on matchup numbers and why I feel they are pretty pointless as compared to actual matchup discussion. @Johnny Based Cage pretty much hit the nail on the head though in that department, how matchup numbers are determined are pretty laughable (I myself have been guilty of this in the past) which is why I will no longer talk in matchup numbers.
 
I've read the Cyborg mu threads that you've posted and they are honestly incredible. Very in-depth stuff. I can't guarantee I'll be as specific as you are in your threads but I think this site could be vastly improved by this kind of analysis.
Thanks I really appreciate this. I can begin to explain how much work goes into these threads. If anyone has the chance to make one, you'll start to realize how little you actually know about a matchup because there are so many scenarios in game.

Also, let me know which character you play for which matchup and I'll be glad to make one for your community. You can use the same template as my own, there might be a few changes depending if your using a rushdown character, zoning character, or hybrid.
 

Braindead

I want Kronika to step on my face
Before we used to get into every possible detail to change the tide of a MU chart, even during the MK9. Just ask @xKhaoTik or Scar, we used to have some super detailed MU regarding our characters even before.
This. So much this.

This is why TYM is dog shit these days compared to MK9 days. Aside from all the top players leaving and the hype dying down, the actual worthy content is non-existent now.

There used to be so much detail when MUs are discussed. It wasn't exactly organized like Protagonist wants it to be (not a bad idea), but it was all there. Take a look at this thread for example:
https://testyourmight.com/threads/smoke-match-up-discussion-thread-2012-post-evo-update.25487/page-4

MUs were discussed down to the tiniest details. I used to come here and read info for hours and feel I gained so much MU experience without actually playing that MU.
 
But you said 5/5 or 6/4, there's no severe advantage or disadvantage there. And even if you want to apply that logic to a 2-8 match up or something, there's going to matches where the disadvantaged character makes a good read and puts them in the corner and takes the match. There's so much guessing in high level fighting games - probability and inconsistency are built into the game.
BOIIIIII.
Reads are completely irrelevant to a tier list/matchup chart. Players make reads, characters don't. Match-up charts are exclusively a comparison of one character's tools with that of another, and how those tools interact. That's it. Reads do not matter whatsoever, and do not justify the ridiculous MU format of 5-5 or X - Y
 
This. So much this.

This is why TYM is dog shit these days compared to MK9 days. Aside from all the top players leaving and the hype dying down, the actual worthy content is non-existent now.

There used to be so much detail when MUs are discussed. It wasn't exactly organized like Protagonist wants it to be (not a bad idea), but it was all there. Take a look at this thread for example:
https://testyourmight.com/threads/smoke-match-up-discussion-thread-2012-post-evo-update.25487/page-4

MUs were discussed down to the tiniest details. I used to come here and read info for hours and feel I gained so much MU experience without actually playing that MU.
Damn, I really do miss the activity matchup threads had back during MK9. Don't get me wrong, it wasn't all gumdrops and roses back then easier but people were more into discussing matchup details than today.
 

TyCarter35

Bonafide Jax scrub
I think the presence of discord has hurt TYM especially when it comes to mu discussion since a lot of players actually discuss tech and what not there. Tho @Protagonist_1 has done a great job with mu threads and being an all around contributor for the community
 
I agree with the OP as well. This isn't just a TYM thing btw, and some forums are already doing the things you've suggested like having separate threads for in depth MU talk.

The problem is 95% of us suck and think our opinions matter. For example, imagine a Street Fighter forum if you will, filled with filthy casuals comparing their own online sets to discuss the Zangief/Guile matchup. Do you think it would even remotely reflect what happens when top players like Du and Snake Eyes or ISDD and Stupendous face off in grand finals?

HELL NAW. Everyone who lacks those kinds of fundamentals, that level of patience and understanding, the ability to make incredible reads, and so on and so forth would shut that shit down real quick like it's 9-1 Guile's favor because they can't even get in once ever let alone do anything worthwhile if they do.

In the hands of true pros, however, it doesn't matter if one character controls the pace 90% of the time as long as the other character doesn't just control the pace but outright murders that other 10% of the time. That's a different kind of balance most less-than-top players don't comprehend and you see it here all the time with characters who often have to work their way in just like Gief does, such as The Flash and Scarecrow. And yet we've seen what both are capable of in the hands of true pros.

So TL;DR: good luck discussing matchups with the masses here, buddy.
Well making a video solves all that, lol. Gathering facts and realistic scenarios is far more important in MU discussion than who gets the most top 8s.
 

Darth Mao

Your Tech is Mine! #buffRaiden
Could not agree more, great thread!
For these considerations to take effect, some kind of collaboration of the moderation team would be required. Perhaps by electing a player as "responsible" for the topics of a character or the moderation team itself to reorganize the forum so that within the character topics there is a topic for each possible matchup. I have a Black Manta channel on Discord and I organized it that way, making it easier to discuss each separate matchup and organizing the information for better access.

[Sorry for my bad english]
 
Their needs to be guides not matchup discussions, unless the character is relativly new, you also get alot threads where it seems like people just post for the sake of posting, they tend to look somthing like this "this is the Owl Man matchup discussion thread lets talk matchups" you know it's gonna be bad when it looks like that, with page after page of mostly useless information.