Match-up Discussion Dear TYM, matchup discussion is terrible and needs to change

Discussion in 'Fighting Philosophy' started by Protagonist_1, Jun 25, 2017.


How would you gauge current matchup discussion on TYM after reading the OP?

  1. I think it's great! (...I didn't actually read the OP, ain't nobody got time for that Protagon..)

    3 vote(s)
  2. I think it's about right.

    1 vote(s)
  3. It could use some improvement.

    8 vote(s)
  4. It's been lackluster, and not to competitive standards.

    11 vote(s)
  5. It's horrendous, imagine a world chess champion saying "just take the queen bro and your good."

    17 vote(s)
  1. =Dear TYM, matchup discussion is horrible and needs to change


    One of the most common things I hear whether on stream or in chats is that fighting games are like chess. While this couldn’t be more wrong (and that’s an argument for later), fighting games sure as hell are NOT broken down like chess games.

    To put this into perspective, when chess matches are broken down, they start with the opening game, a middle game, and then an end game. Each opening by either white or black has its own unique success rate, which has been analyzed through thousands of tournament matches that are recorded in a database based of win, loss, or draw percentage. Every possible move, trap, and possible blunder is analyzed in great detail, up to three to four moves ahead.

    When it comes to matchup discussion, especially on TYM, this is definitely NOT the case. Matchup discussion, for the most part, is general, based off at best a few 100 matches from playing with a few select friends or top players, basically discussing a general gameplan. If you go into any matchup discussion thread, the lack of detail for a matchup is jarring, considering the immense amount of situations you need to be familiar with and all the variations after a specific move is done, all starting from the moment that commentator says begin.

    To put this into perspective, think of any random character matchup (not including a character you use). If you wanted to find info on this matchup, you would have to dig through a matchup discussion thread, and pray that someone has discussed it in detail. More than likely, you won’t and although the response time on TYM is quick, you will get the most generic aspects of the match. The response will more likely be devoid of things like:

    -what are batman’s best openers
    -What are the best counters vs. Batman’s openers (against j2, f2, b2, etc.)
    -What range should I stay at in this matchup? If I have the life lead? If I have a life deficit?
    -Trade situations (this is another topic on it’s own and does not only come down to damage)
    -damage vs. damage (bnb’s to projectiles)
    -common/most used pressure strings by batman and when to interrupt
    -best option after batman’s d1
    -Oki vs. Batman

    …and these only scratch the surface.

    This is not to blame TYM, it’s mods, or it’s members nor to call anyone out. Just case and point: matchup discussion as of current is terrible and needs to be more detailed. This is a competitive website for crying out loud! So what needs to change?

    There needs to be [more] individual threads on individual matchups:
    • Matchups are complex, but need to be organized and simplified. This is the complete opposite of a general matchup discussion thread, considering info is disorganized, can be pages long, and rarely updated after patches. This doesn’t mean general discussion needs to go, but for more detailed analysis on an individual matchup, a thread needs to be made for this, and continually updated after each patch (meaning that someone that is reliable and will actually be willing to update the thread should make it).
    • My best suggestion, for each character forum, is to start with your worst matchups (which is subjective, I know), then work backwards. This is because chances are, you are more likely to lose to these characters.
    There needs to be video footage/gifs showcasing common scenarios in matchup discussion:
    • There needs to be footage of scenarios that commonly occur in the matchup, such as reversal situations, oki, punishers, etc. A high emphasis on straight facts, tools vs. tools, and video showing this.
    • There also needs to be footage of people playing the matchup. If someone is having success in a matchup and you’re not, then request they show footage on how to play it, not just by word. The more footage on a specific matchup, the better a gameplan can be outlined for it.
    There needs to be a detailed outline on what the gameplan is:
    • When you go into a matchup, you should already know what your goals need to be against your opponent (I need to build meter at all cost vs. Atrocitus for pushblock/I must push deadshot to the corner..etc). Outlining a gameplan, and working backwards on how to achieve said gameplan is essential to matchup discussion.
    • All from getting the first hit, to making up the deficit and what to and what not to do need to be discussed in detail. This is also important because if your losing, it’s much easier to identify specific areas on were you deviated from the gameplan, failed to punish, or other errors.

    In order to start things off, I have currently have been working on a detailed Cyborg vs. Dr. Fate matchup thread that will hopefully set a precedent for future matchup discussion. THIS IS NOT PERFECT, but a work in progress. To be blunt…

    If you’re a tournament player, and you’re not analyzing every one of your matchups with as much detail as shown in this thread, you’re slipping up.

    I made this thread because TYM is a first and foremost, competitive gaming website. And from what I’ve seen, matchup discussion, from a competitive standpoint, has been lackluster. Here’s hoping this thread will change that.

    TL;DR: Matchup discussion sucks, so make detailed individual matchup threads in your individual character forums. If you need an example of where to start, feel free to check out the link below and use it as a template:
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2017
  2. Ivansygil

    Ivansygil Noob

    Long time lurker here, I agree with all your points BUT the quality of discussion does vary from character to character.

    Sometimes I'll see something like "just keep them away" but on other threads I'll see more in depth match up discussion (a good example is that Wonder Woman thread). However, if people started implementing even just a couple of your suggestions across the website as a whole, the quality of match up discussion would improve drastically.
    Dayvon, Plymarco and Protagonist_1 like this.
  3. EntropicByDesign

    EntropicByDesign Confused and afraid.

    I might have a longer response for you later, but I do want to agree (heavily) with you saying fighting games are nothing like chess. I despise that comparison when I hear it.

    ANY competitive endeavour will have similarities with other competitive endeavours, but some comparisons are more appropriate and apt than others.
    Marlow and Protagonist_1 like this.
  4. Fred Marvel

    Fred Marvel It's actually Freddy Marvel

    Didn't read the full OP yet but I've been saying for a long time that the way matchups are compared (saying 5-5 or 6-4) literally makes no sense. If one character has the tools to beat another if played correctly with matchup knowledge it would be 10-0 every time. But this community isn't exactly the most open minded or open to changing the standard so good luck

    ANGELMAN ANGELMAN For President 2020
    Premium Supporter

    Anything, and I mean ANYTHING, Scarecrow or Red Hood related, that anyone needs an educated opinion on, please feel free to call upon me. I am a way better teacher than I am a competitor.
    Protagonist_1 likes this.
  6. Saboteur-6

    Saboteur-6 Filthy Casual


    While I agree, you're making an assumption that the majority come to this site with the mentality to cultivate improvement, discuss difficulties with specific matchups, and want to take the time to create competent content educate / uplift.

    That's largely not the conversation I see happen. More often than not it's debating tier placements, nerf/buff threads, humor threads, or stuff that tries to tap into tournament story thread hype.
  7. I agree, it varies from character forum to character forum, which I should have mentioned in the OP. I just feel as of current, matchup discussion has been so lackluster considering it's one of the most important part of fighting games.

    I just made this thread to get discussion going, and hopefully leaders in their respective forum who may want to help players competitively do this for their community. I'm also doing this primarily because I want the Cyborg community to be the staple of what a character forum should be, and I want to know how to approach his bad matchups knowing I have explored most of his options.

    Haha, I look forward to it! :D

    I definitely know the majority of people do what is mentioned. That is totally fine, if there are players that play casually and don't want to play competitively or level up there nothing wrong with that.

    I'm saying for those that do, and there are quite a few people that do come here to level up/go to tourneys, matchup discussion should and can be so much better than it is now. Whether or not other communities want to follow suit is on them, but I'm going to do my part on making sure the Cyborg community sets the bar as far as matchup discussion goes on TYM.
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2017
  8. Roy Arkon

    Roy Arkon I will leave my seal on you!

    I personally don't have a problem with the way MU threads are presented, but I do agree with the suggestions for improvement that you've shown, they can only help.
    Protagonist_1 likes this.
  9. Thanks, that was the main goal of this thread. Going to work on Darkseid thread today, I hate that matchup haha.
    Roy Arkon likes this.
  10. DeftMonk

    DeftMonk Noob

    5 star post. The dr fate matchup thread your working on is a good read for all, not just cyborg players.
    Protagonist_1 likes this.
  11. SneakyTortoise

    SneakyTortoise Official Master of Salt
    Director of Content

    Great thread, could not agree more!
  12. DeftMonk

    DeftMonk Noob

    Oddly enough I wish there was a guide to fight brainiac. I know the character has flaws but I just don't know where they are as I haven't labbed him yet. I'm probably respecting things I shouldn't and not countering properly: / similar to how forever king got mopped by sonic's "godly" joker (as some guy in another thread posted). If someone had made a joker MU thread like this, foreverking woulda been thankful.
    Protagonist_1 likes this.
  13. Thanks man, really means a lot to hear that. Had been working on it for about a week, and it's still a work in progress. I want to make a basic template so it's easier to fill in stuff for other character forums.
  14. Amazing how little has changed since I made this. BTW, I currently have 4 threads in the works, superman thread is near finished and Supergirl followed by Batman will be next in the series:

    Cyborg vs. Superman

    Cyborg vs. Dr. Fate

    Cyborg vs. Darkseid

    Cyborg vs. Deadshot
  15. Kunta

    Kunta Meta-Whore

    A lot of what your discussing can be explained by where you start; this is a video game. The best way to learn about situations is to play, that's why league players spend so much time in solo queue and not in practice mode.
  16. Crusty

    Crusty Carpe Noctem

    Read the thread. I'll take this into consideration in the Red Hood forum.
  17. I'm not following the point your trying to get at. This thread is simply stating matchup discussion is horrible at the moment for a site that is considered a competitive site.

    As for situational play, learning about situations, for me at least, is a cycle.

    I play a player, watch the match footage, go into practice mode, evaluate the frame data and my options, and from those options I figure out the 1st 2nd and 3rd best options (possibly more) and my opponents counter to those options. Then I go back and test them in game, and repeat the process.

    The threads I made are meant to aid players that want to have a better in depth understanding of their options , and is completely open for discussion (although few have posted in these threads, I guess arguing over matchup numbers and if there character does 10% more better or less in a matchup is more important...). My threads are not perfect, a work in progress, but I wish when I first started playing fighting games that someone had done this for me.

    That's why I make this threads, because I know there are people that may want to take this character to a tournament, and I want to make sure they have all the resources they have available.
  18. 4x4lo8o

    4x4lo8o Noob

    This doesn't make sense. Do you think reads and guesses don't exist in the game? Even if played at the theoretical highest level there's stuff that's gonna change from match to match. Even if one character has somewhat better options most match ups aren't bad enough that the better character isn't going to ever lose matches.
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2017
  19. Fred Marvel

    Fred Marvel It's actually Freddy Marvel

    actually it does make sense, the idea goes if two players of equal skill and equal matchup/character knowledge play 10 games right? well then they both will adapt to each other at the same pace the person at a severe disadvantage is never going to outplay the one at the secere advantage so theyll never win.
  20. KingHippo

    KingHippo Alternative-Fact Checker

  21. 4x4lo8o

    4x4lo8o Noob

    But you said 5/5 or 6/4, there's no severe advantage or disadvantage there. And even if you want to apply that logic to a 2-8 match up or something, there's going to matches where the disadvantaged character makes a good read and puts them in the corner and takes the match. There's so much guessing in high level fighting games - probability and inconsistency are built into the game.
    Rizz091 likes this.
  22. Fred Marvel

    Fred Marvel It's actually Freddy Marvel

    youre right about the guessing if theres something in the game you 100% cant react to and have to guess (like a vortex) then yes it can go any way regardless of matchup. other than that nah
  23. CrimsonShadow

    CrimsonShadow Administrator and Community Engineer

    Raiderhorn, Rizz091 and Shade667 like this.
  24. Red Reaper

    Red Reaper The Hyrax Whisperer

    @Protagonist_1 I always envied Dustloop's match up forums for this reason. I want to get dedicated sub forums for match ups, but most people aren't willing to put that much effort in discussing it in detail, at least in my character forum.
  25. Fred Marvel

    Fred Marvel It's actually Freddy Marvel

    i can 5-0 you in this game and beat you in a set in every NRS game since MK9. stop antagonizing me

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