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Dash mechanic discussion

trufenix

bye felicia
Stamina management? Looks like my Dark Souls 2 grinding is finally going to pay off. :)

I'm not convinced this mechanic necessarily favors rushdown characters. Because those characters will constantly be using a lot of endurance just to get in, then once they do get in they will have very little endurance left to capitalize or get any serious pressure going (or at least not for long before they have to go back to neutral and get back some endurance). While zoners are ok with using minimal endurance.
As a Dark Souls player you should appreciate better than anyone else that this entire line of discussion is a trap.
 

Sultani

Warrior
Then look at a game like BB where the ebst character in the game is the best because it's extremely hard to get a hit on her because of strong space control and zoning tools in a game with tons of movement options
Then the previous games where Nu and Lambda were Top and High Tier characters
Arcana Heart 3 where Scharlot was Top Tier because of how good her zoning is, same with Nazuna nand that game has some of the most freeform and strongest movement in any game
Melty Blood where Nero is Top 3 because characters just don't get to play because his zoning and normals are so strong and then you have {. Ciel who's an extremely strong zoner


Strong movement tools does not all of a sudden mean Zoning is dead and rushdown is king
Most of these games mentioned where zoning is strong have something in common. No one knows what the hell they are because no one likes games where zoning characters are the best. Strong zoning isn't a bad way to play if it works, but it makes your game look stupid as shit and boring as hell.
 

d3v

SRK
Most of these games mentioned where zoning is strong have something in common. No one knows what the hell they are because no one likes games where zoning characters are the best. Strong zoning isn't a bad way to play if it works, but it makes your game look stupid as shit and boring as hell.
Super Street Fighter II Turbo (Ryu, O. Sagat), Marvel vs. Capcom (Duo War Machine), Marvel vs. Capcom 2 (any Cable team) and vanilla Street Fighter IV (Ryu, Sagat) say hi.
 

Sultani

Warrior
ST - Chun Li, Blanka, Dhalsim. O. Sagat is the only good zoner in that game because of quick recovery on low tiger shot. I don't know much about any of those other games, so I suppose it's not that no one has heard of them, it's just that I haven't. lol.

It's just my preference really, but my opinion is simply that watching Chris G play Morrigan makes Marvel look even shittier than it already is. Watching Pig (or anyone else) play Kenshi makes MK9 look fucking terrible. Watching deathstroke make IGAU look fucking aweful. The discussion isn't even how strong the zoners are. I don't hate that style because of the strength or weakness of it, I hate it because it makes games look fucking retarded. I'm all in favor of minimizing things that make games look fucking retarded.
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
all archetypes are in KI

it isn't about all rushdown

that game is PURE footsie

Glacius has the ability to keep you out for days with two types of projectiles.. one being a physical projectile...... then he can pop instinct and just go ham diggity when you get close to him.

I swear ........

I can only HOPE that MKx has this type of diversity and it is looking good.
 

d3v

SRK
You make think they make the genre look dumb, but those "in the know" know that it's what set 2D fighters apart.

To quote from Evolution co-founder and former Capcom Special Advisor for Street Fighter Seth Killiam's old Domination 101 article.
So the initial explanation of why 3d didnt wipe 2d out immediately was that 3d wasnt really 3d, and 2d was more like "2d plus". But that explanation wont get you very far today. Modern Tekken, VF, and Soul Calibur all boast truly 3d motion, and the 2d games havent really changed much at all. And yet 2d remains an interesting, viable format for great games. What gives?

Usually, when people attempt to weigh in on the side of 2d against 3d games, they repeat some vague nonsense about better "style", or embarrass themselves by trying to complain about 10-chains (so stupid). I, however, think that theres something real to be said on the subject. I even have a theory. (editor's note: big surprise) Its a theory about what makes Street Fighter so damned good. Its a very simple one. What makes Street Fighter so good is not the animation. Its not the sound. Its not the artwork, or the character personalities, or even the combos. So what is it then? Its the fireball. Thats what fundamentally sets it apart. This isnt to say, of course, that everything else doesnt make critical contributions to the overall package- obviously its all important. But if you want to reduce what makes SF stand out (in a now crowded field) to its very essence, thats my candidate for the best answer. Fireballs, baby.
First, fireballs enable real combat at a distance. The game isnt restricted by how far your characters limbs reach- with a fireball, there can be real threats even from opposite ends of the screen. They control space and threaten at any range. When theres a fireball on the screen (or a beam, or worse- multiple fireballs!), it fundamentally changes the dynamic of the match. And the kind of dynamic change depends on all sorts of crazy things, including (but not limited to): how fast the fireball is moving, the size of the fireball, the angle at which its traveling, etc.

This is something thats almost entirely missing from the true 3d games. Once you get sufficiently far away, theres not a lot to do, because there just isnt anything you can really do to one another, apart from running back together. The game sort of collapses (unless getting away was the point, i.e. youre trying to turtle/run away).
The second key role of the fireball is as a setup. A well placed fireball acts as a surrogate; an intermediary. Its an obstacle. It sets up an initial challenge that must be overcome before you have any chance to actually deal out damage to the opponent. Dealing with it can be as simple (or as hard) as avoiding it (jumping, ducking, canceling it, invincible special, etc.), but it must be dealt with, because its directly threatening you. Whether it hits, or even if blocked, its going to do damage, as well as pushing you around. It must be dealt with because it stands between you and your opponent, and no matter the beating it takes, hurting it wont alone doesnt affect him. Once away, a fireballs fate is entirely distinct from your own. This type of threat can prompt your opponent to take put themselves in more vulnerable positions (like trying to jump over it, etc.), so its a setup in that way, but in some cases, it can also be followed in, like a kind of shield (or jumped over, used to cross-up, etc.), making all sorts of otherwise untenable attack approaches possible. Its an ally that works independently.
http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/91156/2d-vs-3d
 

Protagonist_1

Champion
The level of footsies in the next MKX is going to be awesome. I can understand why someone would be skeptical, but one shouldn't assume how the game's combo system/movement is going to be without playing it first (the run combo in the gif looked awesome btw). Plus with the faster walkspeed compared to injustice (and even mk9 the way it looks), spacing is going to be so much easier.
 

MisterSpyker

The 6'4 King
I dont know if anyones pointed this out yet, but basically, when you cancel your dash into a run to cancel the run into an attack, it kinda sounds like you're meter burning your dash with the agility meter.
 

cyke_out

Warrior
Without a variety of play style and differing tactics the game becomes one sided and stale. A clash of styles makes things interesting. I disagree wholeheartedly that zoning is bad for game. And much less respectfully too. Anyone who can't see the value of zoning or keep away in a fighter is a fucking scrub.
 
Without a variety of play style and differing tactics the game becomes one sided and stale. A clash of styles makes things interesting. I disagree wholeheartedly that zoning is bad for game. And much less respectfully too. Anyone who can't see the value of zoning or keep away in a fighter is a fucking scrub.
That's not really the players fault, more like a designing issue and balancing overlook. If you're playing to win, than you use what works with your character or pick whoever works.

When I played Gears of War, and there was this code of honor in the Gears of War community, that you never 2-piece, which consisted of a melee which stunned you followed by a insta-kill shotgun blast, my team abused it, when you play comp, you kind of don't use honor. Of course, I hated it, I didn't enjoy doing it, but, it won me games.
 

cyke_out

Warrior
And now that D3v posted a piece from S-kill's domination 101 articles, I wonder how long it will be until someone posts excerpts from Sirlin's playing to win essays.
 

Colares

Apprentice
You make think they make the genre look dumb, but those "in the know" know that it's what set 2D fighters apart.

To quote from Evolution co-founder and former Capcom Special Advisor for Street Fighter Seth Killiam's old Domination 101 article.



http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/91156/2d-vs-3d
It's kinda of interesting because 3rd strike doesn't have fireballs from long range most cases would be the second case setups. Like Denjin and Dudley's rose

So your winning ratio is pretty good a against her huh?
I play soul/bella soul has the worst matchup in the game against cock and just with reflector assist it become way easier you should try if you play bella.
 

Wemfs

The only morality in a cruel world is chance.
Without a variety of play style and differing tactics the game becomes one sided and stale. A clash of styles makes things interesting. I disagree wholeheartedly that zoning is bad for game. And much less respectfully too. Anyone who can't see the value of zoning or keep away in a fighter is a fucking scrub.
100% agree. This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 

d3v

SRK
It's kinda of interesting because 3rd strike doesn't have fireballs from long range most cases would be the second case setups. Like Denjin and Dudley's rose
Most Capcom fighters from that era nerfed fireballs (lol at Alpha 3 making it so that getting hit at full distance did less damage than chip). The fun thing about 3rd though is that some of the super arts did the whole setup thing really well. The best example would be Urien's Aegis reflector, proper use of which led to mixups via unblockable setups.
I play soul/bella soul has the worst matchup in the game against cock and just with reflector assist it become way easier you should try if you play bella.
You'll probably hate my Fuku/Cock/Fillia team. Fukua H fireball assist makes Peacock feel almost like her old 3 bomb self.
When I played Gears of War, and there was this code of honor in the Gears of War community, that you never 2-piece, which consisted of a melee which stunned you followed by a insta-kill shotgun blast, my team abused it, when you play comp, you kind of don't use honor. Of course, I hated it, I didn't enjoy doing it, but, it won me games.
What kind of scrubby shit is this? Sirlin would have a field day.
 

Skkra

PSN: Skkra
Leave it to M2Whines to derail a discussion about the mechanics of dashing into a garbage pile of zoning complaints. This game looks like it has good walkspeed. Walk backwards.

I'm sure that a bunch of characters will be introduced who have strong movesets based around keeping an opponent at a distance.
 

Colares

Apprentice
Most Capcom fighters from that era nerfed fireballs (lol at Alpha 3 making it so that getting hit at full distance did less damage than chip). The fun thing about 3rd though is that some of the super arts did the whole setup thing really well. The best example would be Urien's Aegis reflector, proper use of which led to mixups via unblockable setups.

You'll probably hate my Fuku/Cock/Fillia team. Fukua H fireball assist makes Peacock feel almost like her old 3 bomb self.

What kind of scrubby shit is this? Sirlin would have a field day.
But the Knife is in Alpha 3 my fav projectile ever Cody sucked but the knife.
Down here no one plays Fukua well they are all free to throws but there's 4 Solo Squiglys on the other hand.
I haven't see one Painwheel yet her fireball is good for setups I think. I can't play her at all.
 

d3v

SRK
But the Knife is in Alpha 3 my fav projectile ever Cody sucked but the knife.
Down here no one plays Fukua well they are all free to throws but there's 4 Solo Squiglys on the other hand.
I haven't see one Painwheel yet her fireball is good for setups I think. I can't play her at all.
V Cody (his best ISM) was only mid tier though.
Fukua has a projectile that hits either high or low or acts as a sort of anti-air, how cool is that (also I believe more than a few of the top 8 teams at UFGTX had her).
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
Leave it to M2Whines to derail a discussion about the mechanics of dashing into a garbage pile of zoning complaints. This game looks like it has good walkspeed. Walk backwards.

I'm sure that a bunch of characters will be introduced who have strong movesets based around keeping an opponent at a distance.
DEATH OF ZONING

*eyeroll*

thank you for having a brain.
 

Dirtylova

YOLO FLYING GRAYSON BICH
Sooo, @Tom Brady.. Are the recovery frames after a dash gonna be like mk9 where you can pop someone up, dash and continue the combo? Or is it gonna be like injustice where basically only Aquaman and batman can dash and continue a combo? Because you know, they basically had no recovery after a dash :/
 

Skkra

PSN: Skkra
Are the recovery frames after a dash gonna be like mk9 where you can pop someone up, dash and continue the combo?
The gameplay footage released already clearly shows that, using the run mechanic, you can close distance after popping up an opponent and continue your combo.
 

Colares

Apprentice
V Cody (his best ISM) was only mid tier though.
Fukua has a projectile that hits either high or low or acts as a sort of anti-air, how cool is that (also I believe more than a few of the top 8 teams at UFGTX had her).
Ohh never seen them zone maybe that's the problem. But I still don't think her normals work without air dash or maybe too much Filia from me.
I'm loving Eliza she'll probably either replace Soul or go on point, her slow stance is damn fast enough to me and feels a lot like Jedah so i'm happy with it.