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Confirmed: EX Tele Unsafe on Block

IKizzLE

BloodHound
The first and second post highlighted that frame data and hitboxes were kind of screwy with certain characters. So when we tried 6 frame d1's, it didnt punish, but we tried sonya's and it worked. So either her shit is 5 frames or her hitbox is screwy which check pointed out in the second post.

And practice mode has a serious amount of bugs. Better to test this with human players above all. Sadly I wont be able to record for a while because I don't live with anyone else and slips works during the day.
 

shura30

Shura
Cyrax's D1 works?

I tested with Quan Chi and Sonya cause theyre 2 of the quickest and they didnt work.

Must be character specific, but even then a blockstring > d1
according to dogg's frame data
sonya is i6 just like cirax's so they should both work

obviously any blockstring would do better
but reptile is still able to get a dash in
 

A F0xy Grampa

Problem X Promotions
Well Mustard and Ketchup tested it together and it doesnt work for them either.

Admittedly I tested it against the computer, but if even the computer can block it in this games practice mode it obviously doesnt work considering how retarded the practice mode block is.
 
Hello fellow sektors! I play Sektor exclusively and I live in PR. We got a really big MK Kommunity here in the island with some really good players.

Now, staying on topic, I got punched (d1) after EXTU against a Liu-kang.
 

spongebob

ಠ__ಠ
If you've tested and confirmed that you can punish and ex TU then cool, I've never actually been punished for it though and I doubt its something any1 ever has or even will do reliably. I'm guessing the reason this happens is because of letting go of block frames etc but still even though's its uncommon i've seen kitana's d1 punished but I don't think I've ever seen or experienced ex TU being punished.

I've always thought it put sektor around -3 or something. If people ever try to punish ex TU than uppercut usually beats out most options because of the TC frames. If someone tries to uppercut you on ex TU even with a 7 frame uppercut then its the person who uppercuts second that usually wins. Like foxy grandpa said I usually thought it was just what sektor did after it. Most of the time your best bet is to poke him.

Still if you've tested and your that sure then theres no reason arguing against I've just never see it happen and 2 reuptable players thinking it's wrong should at least show its definately not something you'll do easily. If you can punish with d1 then wouldn't that make sektor able to punish it with a full launch using his own 12b1?

As for the buffs on sektor I'm with Robotic he doesnt need anything safe for his cancelling into up missle which is a buf fix anyway. Getting hit out of ex TU is a trait shared by all wakeup attacks even the fasters than 8 frame ones like has been explained. With the startup being longer than 8 frames you also have those other vulnerable frames. Still it's not exactly easily stuffable as people like to think. Ex TU is only easily stuffable when its baited and you do it without them doing anything on top of you, so if they dash block and you ex TU then ofc they'll be able to stuff it.

It still works most of the time to get out of pressure. If someone blindly starts pressuring you or jumps in on your wakeup you'll still hit them for 30% most of the time anyway, if you get hit then bad luck its not glitchy or anything just the way the game works and you lose a bar and most of the time it'll be hard for them to combo you either. The risk reward isn't even in their favour to just pressure you like that and hope for a lucky stuff anyway most of the time they'll eat ex TU and a 30% combo. Ermac's lift is fully punishable on block and has more than 8 start up frames too - it's no more reliable than ex TU. I think you may have just translated a bad experience of ex TU not working and leaving you stuck in the corner to it needing an uneccessary buff. Wakeup attacks are getting a bigger window for invincibility anyway that should do sektor fine.

If they did give it armor on start up then it would be retarded. You could escape frame traps whilst being safe for 30%. However good that is it's definately unecessary.

About the 2 in 12b1. 12b1 is already a 6 frame jab launcher. The 2 not having that much range is just a disadvantage you have to deal with. 12b1 is already completely safe on block and one of the best launcher strings in game.

My opinion.
 

Slips

Feared by dragons. Desired by virgins.
Me and IKizzle tested it pretty thoroughly. The stipulation is that you have to crouch block. Its also pretty damn hard, literally a jf punish. Its not even worth it really, you can get more damage by consistently doing a block string, so its probably not even that useful.

I don't know why Sonya's d+1 works. We didn't test everyone but either she's got a 5 frame d+1 or she recovers faster in that scenario, maybe the TP hits her lower than most characters allowing her to recover 1 frame sooner? Don't know.

I tried it again with the computer on ALWAYS block and it works so you all can test it for yourself. Really not useful but kinda shows Sektor's probably at -5 on block.
 

Crathen

Death is my business
EX TU is a good wakeup but if blocked Sektor can't really pressure after it , since if he's -5 or -6 any 10-11 frames low/special mid string ( Kabal f4 , Scorpion 33 , Cyrax 33 , Liu B3 and so on ) will hit him if he tries to d1 / 1 or uppercut , and since his d1 doesn't give anything guaranteed for pressure afterwards ( you can poke him out of any of his strings , b34 is too slow , 12 hits high , (2)1 will be poked before 1 comes out , only another d1 is guaranteed i think and yeah you can still attempt a crossjump but you can be anti aired , NJP and so on ) so it's a huge risk / very low reward trying to poke with d1 after a blocked EX TU against a player who knows his facts.
 

IKizzLE

BloodHound
If you've tested and confirmed that you can punish and ex TU then cool, I've never actually been punished for it though and I doubt its something any1 ever has or even will do reliably. I'm guessing the reason this happens is because of letting go of block frames etc but still even though's its uncommon i've seen kitana's d1 punished but I don't think I've ever seen or experienced ex TU being punished.

I've always thought it put sektor around -3 or something. If people ever try to punish ex TU than uppercut usually beats out most options because of the TC frames. If someone tries to uppercut you on ex TU even with a 7 frame uppercut then its the person who uppercuts second that usually wins. Like foxy grandpa said I usually thought it was just what sektor did after it. Most of the time your best bet is to poke him.

Still if you've tested and your that sure then theres no reason arguing against I've just never see it happen and 2 reuptable players thinking it's wrong should at least show its definately not something you'll do easily. If you can punish with d1 then wouldn't that make sektor able to punish it with a full launch using his own 12b1?

As for the buffs on sektor I'm with Robotic he doesnt need anything safe for his cancelling into up missle which is a buf fix anyway. Getting hit out of ex TU is a trait shared by all wakeup attacks even the fasters than 8 frame ones like has been explained. With the startup being longer than 8 frames you also have those other vulnerable frames. Still it's not exactly easily stuffable as people like to think. Ex TU is only easily stuffable when its baited and you do it without them doing anything on top of you, so if they dash block and you ex TU then ofc they'll be able to stuff it.

It still works most of the time to get out of pressure. If someone blindly starts pressuring you or jumps in on your wakeup you'll still hit them for 30% most of the time anyway, if you get hit then bad luck its not glitchy or anything just the way the game works and you lose a bar and most of the time it'll be hard for them to combo you either. The risk reward isn't even in their favour to just pressure you like that and hope for a lucky stuff anyway most of the time they'll eat ex TU and a 30% combo. Ermac's lift is fully punishable on block and has more than 8 start up frames too - it's no more reliable than ex TU. I think you may have just translated a bad experience of ex TU not working and leaving you stuck in the corner to it needing an uneccessary buff. Wakeup attacks are getting a bigger window for invincibility anyway that should do sektor fine.

If they did give it armor on start up then it would be retarded. You could escape frame traps whilst being safe for 30%. However good that is it's definately unecessary.

About the 2 in 12b1. 12b1 is already a 6 frame jab launcher. The 2 not having that much range is just a disadvantage you have to deal with. 12b1 is already completely safe on block and one of the best launcher strings in game.

My opinion.
12b1 is not 6 frames. No standing jab is 6 frames. And 12b1 is good but not safe in the sense that you can duck the hits and uppercut....
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Reptile can punish EX TU while Kung Lao cannot even though the elbow dash has the same start up time as the spin (i.e., 5 frames). I mention it in this thread. This post has to be quoted again to avoid confusion as to why some moves punish EX TU and some do not despite having the same start up frames.

Check said:
Pretty sure its just a hitbox issue. Similar to Sonya and other females in MKDC. It hits on a different frame allowing them move quicker afterwards (something along those lines). Vs Sheeva it will hit very late, thus forcing you to move later.

That's pretty much it.
 

shura30

Shura
Reptile can punish EX TU while Kung Lao cannot even though the elbow dash has the same start up time as the spin (i.e., 5 frames). I mention it in this thread. This post has to be quoted again to avoid confusion as to why some moves punish EX TU and some do not despite having the same start up frames.
cyrax should have the same hitbox as anyone else
so it's not sonya related

in each drdogg frame data, is listed the first active frame of each move
reptile's dash is 5 startup frames but the first active one is the sixth

kunglao can't get back at the extu because of the pushback on block
the hitbox on the very first active frame of the spin is somewhat smaller than the others
 

Robotic

Gentleman.
I started a thread about the hitboxes in this game and how it pertains to Sektor's d4 a while back. I hope this helps, or at least people can dissect it.

"1. An observation on the hitboxes in this game.

Not unlike a lot of you, I was playing SF4 and SSF4 before MK9 came out. In the study of those hitboxes and hittable boxes, the game is programmed to read via squares and rectangles. Hands and heads are naturally not like this, but this is how fighting games are for the most part and by extension, what we are most used to. Let's use the dragon punch as an example. Once in flight, there is an invisible rectangle that, if the opponent gets caught in it, will take the dragon punch hit. There is also a small hittable box where one can knock someone out of the dragon punch. On occasion, these boxes will extend out farther than the actual limb or what-have-you, and other times, it will appear to end well before it should. An example of this, IIRC, would be Ryu's crouching medium kick. The move seems to extend very far, but the hitbox falls short of Ryu's actual foot. This is done for balance purposes, I imagine; just because a move is animated in a certain way, it does not mean the hit/hittable box needs to be literal. They draw it first, like how it looks and adjust the boxes accordingly.

Now, why is this important?

In studying MK9, I've noticed the hitboxes do not operate under the square/rectangle ruleset often seen in fighting games. Instead, MK9 takes things to a literal level by not having "boxes"at all, they use the actual character. Simply put, the area that is active to hit and be hit is the body itself; it does not go farther or shorter. The hittable area is the actual character and not an invisible box.

Let's look back at SSF4 for a moment. When the round begins, whether the characters are hopping, leaning or taunting in the resting position, the box is unaffected; it treats the character as if it is in a set point in the stage and the hitbox/hittable box will not move along with the natural sway of the character. If the character hops while it is naturally at rest like Cammy or moves it's shoulders like Zangief, the boxes will not.

MK9 is not like this. The body is the "box". Take the Black Dragon for example: Kano leans back and forward in his resting position. If he leans forward, my range in certain attacks appear to be greater. If Kano leans back, the opposite is true. The truth of the matter is, The character itself, leaning forward and back, is constantly changing his position and, therefore, changing his hittable "box". It is only what is tangible on the screen that matters to MK9."
 

IKizzLE

BloodHound
The buff/nerf discussion is ridiculous but if a move isn't working as it is intended to work then there is a problem and fixing it isnt a buff or nerf. I didn't know Sektors EX tu wakeup even had armor for the longest time because the very first time I tried to do it I was knocked out of it and that's all it took for me to learn to not do it again. Wakeups are a universal problem and they already talked about patching it so there is 0 debate on the matter.

Sektor deserves to have his wakeup EX tu work 100% of the time because that is the entire purpose of the move as it was intended to be. His ex tu sure as shit doesn't make him OP. And it doesn't need buffed because 5-10% of the cast can mash a 2% damage counter on block 1% of the time.

Also, don't cry about "Sektor players" asking for buffs. I haven't seen many players asking for buffs, at all. They are usually discussing how awesome and balanced he is and his strategies. He probably has one of the most positive strategy discussion sections on the entire site.
Zaq, I'm pretty sure every Sektor player agrees with you. The argument I was saying was that Armor shouldn't be the answer because it will cause more problems than not. But I agree with everything you said.

And wow, I did not know reptile elbow dash punishes EXTU. This was the info I was looking for from the last sentence of my first post. Thanks M2Dave, I was getting blown up by a lot people for posting.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
shura30 said:
cyrax should have the same hitbox as anyone else
so it's not sonya related

in each drdogg frame data, is listed the first active frame of each move
reptile's dash is 5 startup frames but the first active one is the sixth

kunglao can't get back at the extu because of the pushback on block
the hitbox on the very first active frame of the spin is somewhat smaller than the others
I made a mistake in my last post. Elbow dash and the spin hit on the sixth, not fifth, frame.

In addition, characters have distinctive hitboxes. This is not debatable. For example, Mileena's tele kick xx aerial Sai jails a standing Reptile. To my knowledge, it does not jail any other character. Also, Raiden's Vicinity Blast traps do not work on a handful of characters. Johnny Cage's f+33 xx EX forceball trap whiffs on a couple of characters. Everybody's hitbox is not the same, which explains why some characters can punish EX TU and why some characters cannot.
 

SwiftTomHanks

missiles are coming
I'm not sure why this is blowing up.

We've all known for a while now that you are at negative frames on a blocked EXTU. A blockstring (for most characters) is going to be much more valuable than a d1. Even more so than that, just throw Sektor for 12%.

While if it is 100% confirmed that some characters can d1 Sektor if they block low - I don't think this will change Sektor's gameplay. All info is good info however.
 

shura30

Shura
Let's look back at SSF4 for a moment. When the round begins, whether the characters are hopping, leaning or taunting in the resting position, the box is unaffected; it treats the character as if it is in a set point in the stage and the hitbox/hittable box will not move along with the natural sway of the character. If the character hops while it is naturally at rest like Cammy or moves it's shoulders like Zangief, the boxes will not.

correct, here are some king of fighters 2002 examples (neogeo games have some dispwitch setting to enable hitboxes):





rectangles size and shape never change even if the sprite changes position
 

Slips

Feared by dragons. Desired by virgins.
But this isn't Street Fighter or KOF, hit boxes do indeed move around in this game, even when the sprite is just standing there. There's several examples of this I have seen throughout just in practice mode.

I'm not sure why people compare MK to other fighting games, its simply its own animal and you gotta keep an open mind to other possibilities.
 

shura30

Shura
I'm not sure why people compare MK to other fighting games, its simply its own animal and you gotta keep an open mind to other possibilities.
i agree to a certain point
but there's too much randomness in the dynamic mk hitboxes than with the fixed sf/kof ones
different is not always better
 

smokey

EX Ovi should launch
i agree to a certain point
but there's too much randomness in the dynamic mk hitboxes than with the fixed sf/kof ones
different is not always better
Different is not always better may be true, but all the people complaining and comparing this game to SF and saying its better is not going to solve anything, just cause arguments. MK and SF are both fighting games, yes, but are both different games and they cannot be expected to play the same or use the same mechanics. An Orange and a Banana are both fruit, and different people will like different things about each one, but you never hear people whining because Oranges arent yellow, or Bananas arent round?

Deal with the fact that they arent the same, and if you dont like it then go play something else!
 
I rarely toss out an EXTU, and I'm sure most Sektor players are the same way. We've all been hit out of it, and during the supposed invincible Wake-up, as well.

All the more reason to hit confirm before tossing an EXTU.
 

fr stack

Noob's saibot or noob saibot's?
in response to your post random i refer you to swift tom hanks signature lol i laugh every time i see it
 

Chaosphere

The Free Meter Police
The only time I'm guaranteed to hit an exTU is if some doucher like johnny cage has me in the corner. But... even then I usually get knocked out of it. It's a gamble so if I'm in the corner against a rushdown character I'm basically just screwed.