Command Grab - Bomb Trap PATCH?

[Eight]

No, you're just timing the 2,2 too late. The opponent cannot jump when it's timed correctly.

Truth. Lag online will usually give you a momentary window to jump, but it won't work offline.

 

[UsedForGlue]

1. the rumor about the bomb patch i did not hear from nrs, it was just that.. a rumor.

2. i like the bomb trap and want it to stay in.

3. i never eeeeeeeeeeeeevr said if we were on the xbox that something is different.

4.

5. i see you guys trying to blow me up on here, thats cool.. do what you guys want. just remember.. do you guys know how ppl found out about the bomb trap? i posted it day 1 and went in depth about it. i like it and think it has to stay.

I know you obviously didnt read every reply in full on this topic, nor would I expect you to, but I mentioned in my second post that you ''Became a victim of your own bomb trap'' as it was you who first discovered it could be done, and on day one.

Its still a deadly move without the bomb trap, After the grab I have pressured down the opponent with a single jab into another grab, then a 2 string, into three string, so without the bomb trap its still an amazing tool. I think the trap should stay.

And everyone knows here that Tom Brady, on one of his better days, would hammer a Cyrax player trying grabs on him again. We all have off days, and its good to see Bill being human.

 

[Sultani]

Greetings. I just started playing Cyrax yesterday after I heard about the command grab reset, so forgive me if any of this is posted in ignorance - especially considering mechanics of things that have / have not been patched.

It could be the case that I've only been able to pull off the full combo online because I've only played like 20 matches and the people I'm playing are pretty bad, but I'm really not sure what the problem is with the command grab bomb reset.

From what I've seen, there's a number of different ways the opponent can avoid getting hit by the bomb. Any character that can teleport, or simply jumping, seems to allow ample time to avoid getting hit or being forced to block the dash BP BP string. Is this something that changed? Did that used to be faster? Is the avoidance I'm seeing just due to online lag? or am I just slow and bad because I just started using Cyrax?

Right now what I think about it (which probably doesn't mean much), is that it doesn't make sense to patch out a primary offensive tool when there's already in place mechanics that are perfectly viable counters to it.

Is it really the case that in the absence of lag and a well executed dash BP BP, that there's no counter to the bomb hitting you? I personally haven't seen that, but my own individual experiences can't be used to justify systematic changes.

Also, doesn't the sheer length of the entire combo make it easily breakable?

Regarding the combo yielding more than 50% damage, I'm assuming that includes the initial jump in punch, which results in 8 hits for 22% before the bomb is tossed out. If the opponent blocks the BP BP, it's 35% + the initial 22%. If they don't block, it's 13 hits for 43% on top of the initial 22%.

That probably wouldn't happen alot, but yea, it's over 50%.

 

[Helter Skelter]

I've thought about Cyrax's Bomb Trap for about a week and a half and at first I hated it, but now I think it should definitely stay. HOWEVER, it needs some serious changes to the way it's handled. This are just suggestion based on the character itself and my own personal views on game design.

-The throw needs to do less damage in total. Actually, it should do 9% max (3% per hit). He's already got decent back and front throws that leave his opponents at an ideal spot for him to create pressure on screen and/or zone them out.

Right now it's doing 13% which is 1% more than a standard throw for all characters. Hell, Jax's Quad Slam does the same damage (13% but should ideally do 20%) but doesn't have any of the benefits that Cyrax's gains from his throws but with the same amount of legwork. That's stupid. It should be a tool for setting and resetting the opponent.

-Secondly, Sprint mentioned the throw break window being 2 frames. I truly believe it should be 3-4 frames wide. What's the point of him even having normal throws if his yank is better and has the same positional advantages (if you use a Teleport) than the basic throws have? You should be rewarded results for your opponent sleeping at the wheel and turning their brain off during fights.If they can't break throws then they deserve to get blown up. However, there really needs to be a difference in the risk/reward between this and Cyrax's basic throws.

-Thirdly, the the Bomb Trap is okay I guess, but I really hate that you guys keep saying that he'll lose his primary offensive tool if the trap was gone. He's not Zangief. Right now Cyrax's has some of the most interesting tools in the game (often mentioned by Sprint when he talks about EN Net and EN Bomb) but has essentially become a one dimensional grab character. It makes me wonder what you guys would have done with Cyrax if he never had the trap to begin with. He's a decent character, so please don't make him a one trick pony.


Keep the trap but adjust the throw and fix the stupid damage scaling reset stuff that's plaguing the game.

 

[Dandy J]

No, you're just timing the 2,2 too late. The opponent cannot jump when it's timed correctly.

I'll test it tonight vs real dudes, but that seems impossible to me when I look at the recovery timing.

 

[Sultani]

There is risk vs rewards for using the command grab. You have to be close enough to grab them in the first place. Anyone who's expecting you to do it can usually beat the crap our of someone trying to use the command grab reset only. I don't think the concern is that people think nerfing it or patching it out entirely will remove his only means of offense, but it certainly would remove his best option. There's certain things in the combo that require some fairly strict timing (but easily mastered in like a day of practice)..

The portion of the combo that deals the damage (post mid bomb toss) is only 35% - 43% and you'd probably never get anyone into that position without doing the command grab BP, FP, BP, which in itself is harder than just doing a regular throw.

He's got some decent other combos without this for sure, but without using a meter they do like ~ 30%

There's other characters (sub zero, smoke, ermac, etc...) that have combos that deal just as much damage but are FAR easier to start and about 100 times easier to complete fully. I could be missing it, but I don't see people calling or patches for any of those.. If any damage reduction is considered, it should be very minimal.

 

[Sporko]

your a little off there
52% (considering opponent blocks 22) is the max damage you can get off a CG at mid screen with no meter. Adding a jump in punch 21net adds 11% so you would wind up with 63% no meter. The first combo in the video above(only relevant one) does 64% with one EX bar without the jump in punch 21net starter(75% with). But if you do:
CG, mid bmb, dash 22block, bmb explodes, njp, b2, dash 2EXbmb, dash 2net, teleport, 33reverse kick 59% (70% with the jmp in punch 21net)
so the two resets only add about 5% with the same amount of meter, so there is not much of a difference with one or the other being better at mid screen(next to the wall is a whole other story though). Hope this makes some sense, this also mean that if they take out the CG setup the combo in the video will be replaceing it(unless it gets patched too).

I'm not sure exactly what you're saying I was off about. All I said was that if you're willing to use x-ray that you can get a very easy 70-79% damage. The only point I was trying to make is that it's so easy you can't mess it up under pressure.

 

[water]

Originally Posted by Sprint
No, you're just timing the 2,2 too late. The opponent cannot jump when it's timed correctly.

I'll test it tonight vs real dudes, but that seems impossible to me when I look at the recovery timing.

You can go to Practice Mode to get the timing down. Set the dummy to Jump: b1212 when they land, ff4, ff~n~22.

Tips to land it correctly:
#1 Get the ff4 out as fast as possible after the command grab is done.
#2 You only need a small dash into the 22; try to hit the 22 at its maximum range; getting too close makes it harder.
#3 For some reason it helps me if I focus on Cyrax's feet. I'm not sure why, maybe it helps me watch the range of the dash.

If you did it right, you will hit them while they are still grounded and can complete the combo. If you are late, you will hit them out of the air and can still continue the combo, but will need to modify it by at least skipping the nj.P.

Once you get the timing down, try it on a person. I tested it with the opponent jumping, crouching, blocking, using Armored Ex moves and Xrays. None of those escapes work afaik before the 22. But if they block the first hit of 22 then try Armored or Xray, it can be countered.

 

[Sultani]

I'm not sure exactly what you're saying I was off about. All I said was that if you're willing to use x-ray that you can get a very easy 70-79% damage. The only point I was trying to make is that it's so easy you can't mess it up under pressure.

With the initial portion of the combo ending with the command grab - Starting with a jump punch then BP, FP, net, Command grab BP, FP, BP - that's 8 hits for 22%.

2nd portion - after you do the back + BP, dash BP, X-Ray, if you pull off the dash in FP, BP, FP post X-ray, the 2nd portion of the combo is 13 hits for 59% (if the BP, BP isn't blocked)

The most it can do is 81% with X-ray use.

 

[Sporko]

Yes I know, I posted that on SRK 7 or 8 days ago, but I said 70-79% because you should expect everybody to block the first hits post command grab, and you will not always be able to start the bomb trap off with a jumping P into BP FP net.

 

[Tom Brady]

ok so from what im hearing the bomb trap being basically free is a bug. you are supposed to have 10 frames to break is b1 throw but right now you only have 3 maybe 2 frames. its going to get fixed so now when a random net hits you will be able to break the throw 100% of the time.

however, breaking a naked b1 will be near impossible on reaction but you can basically mash d1s and beat everything cyrax has while still breaking b1 command throw. cyrax would have to jump over or 33 in close to stop d1 shit and then you can aa him or cross up his 33 etc.. so it becomes a mind game with strategy.

 

[THTB]

That's definitely a change I'd like to see. You keep the trap, but it's gonna be more work to get it in and you don't get it for free for just blocking a JP or losing a projectile war vs Cyrax.

 

[Juggs]

ok so from what im hearing the bomb trap being basically free is a bug. you are supposed to have 10 frames to break is b1 throw but right now you only have 3 maybe 2 frames. its going to get fixed so now when a random net hits you will be able to break the throw 100% of the time.

however, breaking a naked b1 will be near impossible on reaction but you can basically mash d1s and beat everything cyrax has while still breaking b1 command throw. cyrax would have to jump over or 33 in close to stop d1 shit and then you can aa him or cross up his 33 etc.. so it becomes a mind game with strategy.

Nice, it's not being removed just toned down. This is what needed to happen. Good shit!

 

[Sporko]

I'd have to agree. We'lll see how it plays out come patch, but on paper that sounds like a very reasonable fix.

 

[Dandy J]

You can go to Practice Mode to get the timing down. Set the dummy to Jump: b1212 when they land, ff4, ff~n~22.

I assume you know this but the dummy doesn't jump out on frame 1.

 

[xZEPPELIx]

nvm rofl

 

[N2L Inception]

1. the rumor about the bomb patch i did not hear from nrs, it was just that.. a rumor.

2. i like the bomb trap and want it to stay in.

5. i see you guys trying to blow me up on here, thats cool.. do what you guys want. just remember.. do you guys know how ppl found out about the bomb trap? i posted it day 1 and went in depth about it. i like it and think it has to stay.

Listen, Tom Brady is a saint to the MK community IMO. He does nothing but exceed the game to its fullest potential and share his knowledge with the community. He discovered this bomb trap, the very weapon that beat him. To be honest I believe Tom had controller problems because he is a smart player and knows how to play against Cyrax and the bomb trap. Clearly Reo took care of LiJoe and Tom took care of Reo at Power Up if im not mistaken. Finally, Tom clearly doesnt mind the bomb trap. Every time a Mk player complains about an unfair advantage, Tom sees it as a challenge to better his own skills. Just listen to his thoughts on nerfing Kung Lao or any other cheap move or player. No one should disrespect him and everyone should understand his frustration over constant tournament play and a broken controller against an inferior opponent. All i can say is we will see if LIJoe goes to a major tournament and faces Tom under ideal conditions.

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

Listen, Tom Brady is a saint to the MK community IMO. He does nothing but exceed the game to its fullest potential and share his knowledge with the community. He discovered this bomb trap, the very weapon that beat him. To be honest I believe Tom had controller problems because he is a smart player and knows how to play against Cyrax and the bomb trap. Clearly Reo took care of LiJoe and Tom took care of Reo at Power Up if im not mistaken. Finally, Tom clearly doesnt mind the bomb trap. Every time a Mk player complains about an unfair advantage, Tom sees it as a challenge to better his own skills. Just listen to his thoughts on nerfing Kung Lao or any other cheap move or player. No one should disrespect him and everyone should understand his frustration over constant tournament play and a broken controller against an inferior opponent. All i can say is we will see if LIJoe goes to a major tournament and faces Tom under ideal conditions.

Not sure who you are but I agree with you to a certain extent. Complaining about tactics is scrub mentality. Find a way people.

Also, what would you consider "ideal conditions?"

 

[N2L Inception]

Not sure who you are but I agree with you to a certain extent. Complaining about tactics is scrub mentality. Find a way people.

Also, what would you consider "ideal conditions?"

Well if his pad was truly broken on his controller, a working pad would be ideal conditions. Yes im a noob and dont have much room to talk but from what I have seen from Tom Brady, it seemed that something was wrong because I know Tom knows how to counter a Cyrax player. Enough of that talk tho. I dont main Cyrax, but I like the trap to an extent and dont wanna see it go because it creates a challenge and without it, Cyrax would be shit. I would love for a explanation on what the patch would do to the bomb tap in simple terms so i can understand better lol


Also, do you guys think Cyrax would still be in the top tier after the patch?

 

[Sporko]

If the fix goes in after the patch as Tom said? I'm not sure. He'd definitely still be at least upper mid, IMO, but without bomb trap off of net, I'm not certain he'd still be top tier. He could be, though. Time will tell.

 

[UsedForGlue]

Nice to hear.

Does this mean his up close game with 1, and 2 1 strings will be slower now? as you were saying you can mash d1's to get out of anything he has up close...

Can you give us a good practical example of something?

Thanks Bill

 

[UsedForGlue]

If the fix goes in after the patch as Tom said? I'm not sure. He'd definitely still be at least upper mid, IMO, but without bomb trap off of net, I'm not certain he'd still be top tier. He could be, though. Time will tell.

He still has high damage juggles from his net, after a jump 1, 2 1, sticky, medium bomb, uppercut, back 2, 3 3 rag doll.

I think his damage wont rescale after his teleport when you catch your opponent in the net.

He has great zoning tools.

I just wish they would make his chest saw useful. The enhanced version works well as last 2% projectile, but the special is just utter shit, why can't it be used to safely end block strings and push the opponent back to a safe distance. Like Superman's eye lazer in MKvsDC, for a lack of a better example, on block it moves you back. Because this chest saw is just shit, words cant describe how useless it is.

If your reading this Tom Brady, please put a word forward about it, otherwise they may aswell take it out all together. IT DOES NOTHING!!

 

[Sprint]

Saw can be used to juggle into a second bomb in a combo, and it gives a long knockdown time. That's about it.

A 10 frame window on the command grab is too much. Unless their intention is to make it so that punch inputs pressed before the grab actually hits are registered as techs, that would give up to the ~23rd frame to press any punch button, which can be done on reaction 100% of the time. Something closer to 5-6 frames would be more realistic.

I assume you know this but the dummy doesn't jump out on frame 1.

Yeah, that's why I just control Player 2 with my feet in training mode. The dummy options are horrible.
(Btw, the opponent definitely can't jump out of my bomb traps by jumping. I was holding up on the P2 stick while recording my video of it to make sure I didn't upload a video of me mistiming it)

 

[Sporko]

He still has high damage juggles from his net, after a jump 1, 2 1, sticky, medium bomb, uppercut, back 2, 3 3 rag doll.

I think his damage wont rescale after his teleport when you catch your opponent in the net.

He has great zoning tools

I agree, actually. He will still be great,I think it's mainly the difference between being top 3 or 4 and being top 6 or top 8. Regardless, he's still towards the top of the heap.

 

[Carefoot]

When can we expect to see the patch (or a patch in general, I'm nervous about facing this at PDP because I've only played against it online vs Banana Ken)? Stealth on XBL? Can we expect this patch to be released for PS3 with PSN being still down indefinitely? I still don't understand how to break this trap yet.