What's new

Comeback Mechanisms in Fighting Games

ST has 0 comeback mechanics, and is fine. I'd love to see more games based off its fast/aggressive gameplay. Matches can be long if people want to zone out, or if you make a good read, you can end things in a single TOD. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that system(plus having real walk speeds and good throws).

Likewise Melee has basically no comeback mechanic, and a focus on hyper offense. New smash has...something..rage or whatever. It's pretty bleh(the more you are losing by, the stronger your attacks, but that fucks with your combos...so..eh). It's not super awful since it's mostly timid, but there's still some noteable issues.

Ultra SF is...ok. Ultra's are hype usually, and do affect the match in interesting ways and create real decisions. It helps that they aren't so insane that they always show up. It's more than possible to blow someone up and never see their ultra, or even in a long match they may never use it(although the threat certainly can warp things). Basically it really helps that in order to use your comeback tool, you usually need to set it up. It's not automatic like rage, or insanely easy to use like Xfactor/clash.

Xfactor is bad, but not as bad as it could be. There's several reasons you might blow it early, and honestly, in a game like MvC3 where the whole goal is to just make the largest pile of bullshit from the available bullshit, it works fine. The main saving grace is that it can be used to increase your advantage, not just solely a comeback tool. In a game where with just meter alone you can ToD, having "more ToD" isn't totally insane. It's the mobility/alpha counter features combined with good chip and a projectile spammer where it gets silly(sup phoenix).

Rage is fucking awful. You have to play around it, and it's binary as hell. All the bad things about x factor with none of the good things. It's just so stupid. The old samurai showdown games had a similar mechanic, but it was "damage taken across rounds", not some arbitrary life threshold thing....well except in 5, where that was a huge issue until they nerfed the hell out of it in V special(even then you could change how early it would activate, and there were decisions based on character. SS has a lot of good comeback ideas mixed with bad overall balance).

Injustice is....mostly awful. The idea of wagering meter has merit, but it needs to happen a fuckload faster(clashes murder hype 9/10 times), and NOT reset position, and the payouts should probably change. It currently rewards projectile heavy meter independent characters(who can close out a round without triggering), while meter dependent corner monsters are just screwed. I do like the idea somewhat of locking it into "second round only" but I think the big issue is that it's just too hard to avoid, which divides the cast into those who are screwed by it, and those that aren't(someone already compared shazam to wonderwoman).

MK9/TvC- Both games gave you meter on damage, and both games let you use that meter to break combos. Both games have major issues with characters who don't need to use meter, because then they just save it up and use it for combo breaks, and thus have more HP than the rest of the cast. TvC became a mess because of this+awful fucking meter options when compared to baroque+combo break. MK9 has things like kabal who's a prime example of what happens when someone has a solid game without meter. Theoretically the system could work if you can balance everyone right, but i have to say i'm worried that someone or something is going to slip through on MKX and become the new Kabal. Also worth mentioning that with these systems, you need to be careful about how the break works. Both games, on release, had issues with combo breaking giving you advantage, thus allowing you to fucking punish the guy who was comboing you, and in TvC's case, I think you could kill off it(fucking dumb).

The one thing that really helped in MK, was that you built more meter on attacking into a block, which combined with flat out nasty chip, put a huge emphasis on aggression. I should add that X factor being a way around breakers is interesting in theory, but poor in practice(as were most x rays in general). Better/more important x rays would've gone a long way towards helping.

KI- They've got xfactor meets ultra + combo breaking. Both systems are core gameplay mechanics, not just something that was slapped on, so they're built around well, and I think it helps a lot. Still there's some issues with certain "ultra modes(can't remember the real name)" being too strong and they also had situations where getting broken put you at a major disadvantage until they fixed it. I don't really know enough to comment beyond that however. The whole "I get to pause time to react" thing seems mostly like a good thing...but it might just be from a spectator perspective.

SC- I really wouldn't call ring outs a comeback mechanism so much as a constant threat/neutral alternate win condition. I can be at full HP and you a hit away, and we both have the exact same ability to RO that we started the match with. It doesn't really help that "how well you ring out" is usually a character trait, with some characters having insane stage carry, into ringouts, creating ToD combos(sup Hilde). I do think it's a good mechanic, but they need to be more aware of who can and can't abuse it to prevent disasters.

KoF- I don't know much about the game, but the big thing seems to be that you get the ability to have more total meter, and practically any member of the cast can quickly ToD with the max amount. It's a fairly clever way to help the down player, and like ultra's, they still need to earn the comeback. Not just push a button and watch it happen.
 

haketh

Noob
There is no comeback mechanic. Game is full of big damage, random wake up windows and teched throws still receive damage. That is why it is great.
The lower your health goes the more chance you have of hitting higher damage on the variable system & guts kicks in. ST has comeback mechanics, pretty much every FG does but alot of them are subtle.

MK Breakers are okay, just really wish you could bait them and punish bad breaker attempts ala BlazBlue, Melty, Guilty Gear.
 

SneakyTortoise

Official Master of Salt
ST has 0 comeback mechanics, and is fine. I'd love to see more games based off its fast/aggressive gameplay. Matches can be long if people want to zone out, or if you make a good read, you can end things in a single TOD. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that system(plus having real walk speeds and good throws).

Likewise Melee has basically no comeback mechanic, and a focus on hyper offense. New smash has...something..rage or whatever. It's pretty bleh(the more you are losing by, the stronger your attacks, but that fucks with your combos...so..eh). It's not super awful since it's mostly timid, but there's still some noteable issues.

Ultra SF is...ok. Ultra's are hype usually, and do affect the match in interesting ways and create real decisions. It helps that they aren't so insane that they always show up. It's more than possible to blow someone up and never see their ultra, or even in a long match they may never use it(although the threat certainly can warp things). Basically it really helps that in order to use your comeback tool, you usually need to set it up. It's not automatic like rage, or insanely easy to use like Xfactor/clash.

Xfactor is bad, but not as bad as it could be. There's several reasons you might blow it early, and honestly, in a game like MvC3 where the whole goal is to just make the largest pile of bullshit from the available bullshit, it works fine. The main saving grace is that it can be used to increase your advantage, not just solely a comeback tool. In a game where with just meter alone you can ToD, having "more ToD" isn't totally insane. It's the mobility/alpha counter features combined with good chip and a projectile spammer where it gets silly(sup phoenix).

Rage is fucking awful. You have to play around it, and it's binary as hell. All the bad things about x factor with none of the good things. It's just so stupid. The old samurai showdown games had a similar mechanic, but it was "damage taken across rounds", not some arbitrary life threshold thing....well except in 5, where that was a huge issue until they nerfed the hell out of it in V special(even then you could change how early it would activate, and there were decisions based on character. SS has a lot of good comeback ideas mixed with bad overall balance).

Injustice is....mostly awful. The idea of wagering meter has merit, but it needs to happen a fuckload faster(clashes murder hype 9/10 times), and NOT reset position, and the payouts should probably change. It currently rewards projectile heavy meter independent characters(who can close out a round without triggering), while meter dependent corner monsters are just screwed. I do like the idea somewhat of locking it into "second round only" but I think the big issue is that it's just too hard to avoid, which divides the cast into those who are screwed by it, and those that aren't(someone already compared shazam to wonderwoman).

MK9/TvC- Both games gave you meter on damage, and both games let you use that meter to break combos. Both games have major issues with characters who don't need to use meter, because then they just save it up and use it for combo breaks, and thus have more HP than the rest of the cast. TvC became a mess because of this+awful fucking meter options when compared to baroque+combo break. MK9 has things like kabal who's a prime example of what happens when someone has a solid game without meter. Theoretically the system could work if you can balance everyone right, but i have to say i'm worried that someone or something is going to slip through on MKX and become the new Kabal. Also worth mentioning that with these systems, you need to be careful about how the break works. Both games, on release, had issues with combo breaking giving you advantage, thus allowing you to fucking punish the guy who was comboing you, and in TvC's case, I think you could kill off it(fucking dumb).

The one thing that really helped in MK, was that you built more meter on attacking into a block, which combined with flat out nasty chip, put a huge emphasis on aggression. I should add that X factor being a way around breakers is interesting in theory, but poor in practice(as were most x rays in general). Better/more important x rays would've gone a long way towards helping.

KI- They've got xfactor meets ultra + combo breaking. Both systems are core gameplay mechanics, not just something that was slapped on, so they're built around well, and I think it helps a lot. Still there's some issues with certain "ultra modes(can't remember the real name)" being too strong and they also had situations where getting broken put you at a major disadvantage until they fixed it. I don't really know enough to comment beyond that however. The whole "I get to pause time to react" thing seems mostly like a good thing...but it might just be from a spectator perspective.

SC- I really wouldn't call ring outs a comeback mechanism so much as a constant threat/neutral alternate win condition. I can be at full HP and you a hit away, and we both have the exact same ability to RO that we started the match with. It doesn't really help that "how well you ring out" is usually a character trait, with some characters having insane stage carry, into ringouts, creating ToD combos(sup Hilde). I do think it's a good mechanic, but they need to be more aware of who can and can't abuse it to prevent disasters.

KoF- I don't know much about the game, but the big thing seems to be that you get the ability to have more total meter, and practically any member of the cast can quickly ToD with the max amount. It's a fairly clever way to help the down player, and like ultra's, they still need to earn the comeback. Not just push a button and watch it happen.
Wow, thanks for the input. Great to hear from someone with a lot of experience in lots of games. The reason I count Ring Out as a comeback factor is that it's a way of winning a match independent of health. So someone losing badly can still win in one hit and make that comeback.

What would you say is the best comeback mechanism or what would your idea for an ideal one be?
 

Flagg

Noob
not even close

MK9 has a good balance between ex attacks and breaking...... but no usage of the xray is a downfall.
That's because a lot of combo's involving just one bar/ex move usually did more than the X Ray itself.

No one is stopping you using an X Ray, but it's to your detriment. That said some characters you suddenly dont want to go near or touch when they have full X Ray.
 

Brutal Chimney

vaporus punching bag
DOA is arguably mainly a walking comeback mechanic though you can just as easily get yourself killed countering so its relatively balanced.

DOA5 though has Power Blow and Power Launcher though which only activates at half health which quite frankly makes no sense as it unlocks a very slow, hard to land, super attack. this doesn't really help bad players and all it does is deny good players these tools. its not something particularly well implemented so im not sure why Harada felt the need to put it in the new Tekken.
 

shaowebb

Get your guns on. Sheriff is back.
DOA is arguably mainly a walking comeback mechanic though you can just as easily get yourself killed countering so its relatively balanced.

DOA5 though has Power Blow and Power Launcher though which only activates at half health which quite frankly makes no sense as it unlocks a very slow, hard to land, super attack. this doesn't really help bad players and all it does is deny good players these tools. its not something particularly well implemented so im not sure why Harada felt the need to put it in the new Tekken.
Don't forget though that DOA5 has whats been dubbed "The Blender". You can corner folks pretty easily and setup a damage factory in your juggles and pressure game that leaves folks pretty locked down in their options to escape. Folks progress towards their opponents very rapidly in DOA5...that in and of itself sets up some pressure options that many other games wouldn't. The fact that it has a counter button is largely what keeps that sort of forward momentum from being too good. Still though...you have to time it and counter the right thing.

Movement in and of itself is a comeback factor IMO. I think having both jumps, longer ranged "super jumps", and short range hops coupled with sidestepping, dodging or rolls is an ideal system for comebacks. You can bait with hops and whif punish, you can sidestep or dodge things to whif punish and escape pressure, and overall it improves the footsies and emphasizes more fundamental play out of players. Its what draws me to KoF so much honestly...great environment for mind games. Movement is the biggest thing to consider IMO. Do it right and comebacks are much more doable as you can't trap a player as easily and leave them with too few options. It creates a better environment for folks to play the player and not just the matchup.
 
What is your opinion on comeback factors in fighting games?

i don't like brain-dead comeback factors. mk9 is the worst (literally brain-dead)

the only comeback factor i really like is street fighter alpha 3 v-ism <3
you can activate your meter gauge and you can perform amazing flashy custom combos. also it requires some skill to perform well, so it is challenging.
look at this, this is amazing:

 

RM Jonnitti

Hot Dog
honestly i never saw ring outs as a comeback mechanic. its just another factor that makes you need to be aware of your ring positioning. the thing about playing close to the ring edge is you put yourself at risk for a ring out/threaten your opponent with a ring out, no matter what your position is to the ring edge. pretty much everyone has a way to ring out regardless of if the ring is in front, behind or to the left or right of them, usually there is one direction where they cant, which is either behind or one of the sides. ring outs are actually my favorite mechanic in any game. i like how where you are on the stage is very important at all times, which is part of the reason why i liked the concept of interactables so much. however, in injustice i think they could have implemented them better
 
Last edited:

SneakyTortoise

Official Master of Salt
honestly i never saw ring outs as a comeback mechanic. its just another factor that makes you need to be aware of your ring positioning. the thing about playing close to the ring edge is you put yourself at risk for a ring out/threaten your opponent with a ring out, no matter what your position is to the ring edge. pretty much everyone has a way to ring out regardless of if the ring is in front, behind or to the left or right of them, usually there is one direction where they cant, which is either behind or one of the sides. ring outs are actually my favorite mechanic in any game. i like how where you are on the stage is very important at all times, which is part of the reason why i liked the concept of interactables so much. however, in injustice i think they could have implemented them better
I never saw it as a comeback mechanism either until I heard Aris talk about it as one. And the reason I would say that it can be considered a comeback mechanism is, as you said, it is a risky game plan to go for a ring out, however, it is a risk that heavily favours the player at the life deficit. If a player is at a huge life disadvantage it becomes a much more attractive game plan to take and could be seen as a more likely way to win the match. That's why I'd see it as a comeback mechanism at times, but also something that has another role too.
 

Matix218

Get over here!
That's because a lot of combo's involving just one bar/ex move usually did more than the X Ray itself.

No one is stopping you using an X Ray, but it's to your detriment. That said some characters you suddenly dont want to go near or touch when they have full X Ray.
Basically x ray (for most characters) is only worthwhile to get unbreakable round ending damage IMO. Because like you said basically every meterless bnb does an x ray worth of damage for most characters and 1 bar combos do more damage than x ray...but they are breakable so if you are closing out a round x ray can be worth it. We have seen this with sonic fox, pl, brady etc in many tournament matches
 

ChaosTheory

A fat woman came into the shoe store today...
Basically x ray (for most characters) is only worthwhile to get unbreakable round ending damage IMO. Because like you said basically every meterless bnb does an x ray worth of damage for most characters and 1 bar combos do more damage than x ray...but they are breakable so if you are closing out a round x ray can be worth it. We have seen this with sonic fox, pl, brady etc in many tournament matches
I like the idea of meter being used differently among characters in MK9. Some want Enhanced specials in the neutral game, some to extend combos. Some really only need Breakers. A few had it worthwhile to save for X-Ray. Not enough cared about their X-Ray, in my opinion. I played Sub-Zero and think he had the best X-Ray in the game. I wish more characters were balanced in that way to make them "X-Ray characters." Sub's X-Ray was great for combos and it changed match-ups significantly in the neutral game. He wanted that over Enhanced Specials or Breakers.

Unfortunately, it wasn't balanced like that overall. I'd like BnB's to be high-20's, low-30's; 1-bar combos to be low-40's; and then X-Rays easily be your biggest but still max out at a little over half-life. Or X-Ray truly compliment the rest of a characters tool and dramatically change the neutral approach of the match. But there were too many Kitana 1-bar, 50% combos and Sonya Enhanced Cartwheels, and Kabal doing as much damage meterless as he does with X-Ray, etc.
 

Matix218

Get over here!
I like the idea of meter being used differently among characters in MK9. Some want Enhanced specials in the neutral game, some to extend combos. Some really only need Breakers. A few had it worthwhile to save for X-Ray. Not enough cared about their X-Ray, in my opinion. I played Sub-Zero and think he had the best X-Ray in the game. I wish more characters were balanced in that way to make them "X-Ray characters." Sub's X-Ray was great for combos and it changed match-ups significantly in the neutral game. He wanted that over Enhanced Specials or Breakers.

Unfortunately, it wasn't balanced like that overall. I'd like BnB's to be high-20's, low-30's; 1-bar combos to be low-40's; and then X-Rays easily be your biggest but still max out at a little over half-life. Or X-Ray truly compliment the rest of a characters tool and dramatically change the neutral approach of the match. But there were too many Kitana 1-bar, 50% combos and Sonya Enhanced Cartwheels, and Kabal doing as much damage meterless as he does with X-Ray, etc.
I agree with literally this entire post.
 
I appreciate the tag @Amplified$hotz. This is a topic I never had enough time to study, I wish I knew all the comeback mechanics of most fighting games but unfortunately I don't. From the game's I've played and followed I feel:

MK9 had honest comebacks
Getting a comeback in MK9 was ridiculously hard (Perfect Legend vs. Jim evo 2011 is the best example of what I would call "a comeback"). I can see why @SneakyTortoise sees meter-building while getting hit as a comeback mechanic, but when you factor in chip damage and meter built by the opponent by you blocking, it's hard for me to see it as one (just my opinion). If it is a comeback mechanic, it didn't do a very good job helping players "comeback" from a deficit.

Although Aris felt in his opinion MK9 had one of the best meter building in any fighting game he has played (that's saying a lot since his been around the FGC for a long time). This was said early in the games life (After mk9's first EVO before the game was fully fleshed out), but I can see were he was coming from. The simplicity behind the meter system in MK9 didn't make anything too complicated, and I felt it was pretty good for a game returning back to 2D. Aris didn't really favor comeback mechanics, so he liked that supers weren't that good.

The negatives included characters were not well balanced around the meter system (Kabal and breakers for example). I feel though that this mechanic is relatively good and should be perfected, and not altered by much (improve balance around meter).

I also disliked how supers were pretty useless. Sure you can do it, but it was worth using the meter for other reasons (runetrap, breaker, resets, mb moves). Most matches of players using the super early usually ended up with a loss. It really wasn't worth the risk at most times. I hope in MKX they lead to longer and harder knockdowns (similar to SF4) to add a bit of suspense/oki potential for characters. (though keep the damage the same relatively the same)

Tekken's rage made me rage

The first time I saw it, I didn't like it, and I still don't like it. Characters when near the brink of death would get a huge damage boost, in which a few pokes could mean lights out. I can even recall using hwoarang in TT2 and getting rage. It's like johnny cage on steroids, especially if your not familiar with his strings (he has like 100+ moves).

I felt it gave way too much reward for a player was out-footsied throughout the match to get a few good hits to make a comeback. TT2 tried to make it more sophisticated, giving rage to a player if the opponent did tag assault (comboed with their partner) but even Korean players still went for big damage with tag assault (they felt players with rage made them play more reckless = easier to punish). Unless you movement is on point, it's very difficult to deal with a raged opponent, factoring in the number of unpredictable moves already in tekken.

I still love tekken (it's my favorite fighting game), but I felt rage did more damage than good. I did like how certain teams got rage early or later in tag (thought that was a cool).

Injustice meter system is....decent

Nothing really pops out about it. I do like the wager system, but it had it's flaws when characters didn't require meter. Overall, it's pretty match-up dependent and goes against characters that need meter for damage. The clash quotes for me never get old though :)

Similar to MK9, I don't see much of a comeback system in injustice. I feel a wager doesn't encourage a comeback as much as it can discourage one (as opposed to rage in tekken or ultra in street fighter).

KOF comebacks require execution
I've played a bit of KOF13, not really good it, and watched some high level play. I think @shaowebb broke it down quite well. I personally like the system, it's not easy to pull of a comeback due to execution, so if a player hits a Hyperdrive mode combo then they've earned it. I'm still surprised how they don't drop those combos as often due to the amount of pressure and execution to drop it. It's pretty hype to see it as well, so I personally like how it works, even though I don't know all the in's or out's of it.

Marvel Xfactor
Kinda crazy and ridiculous, but it fits the game considering how fast paced it is. There have been some pretty hype moments from Xfactor, so that's undeniable. Can't really say much on this though without sounding generic from the rest of the crowd, although I'm not a huge fan of how it works.

SF4
Honestly love how the Ultra system works. It has created a ton of hype matches, most notable being the Poognko vs. Pepeday match I watched last night. Nothing too complicated, but works enough of a comeback mechanic at low and high level of play and adds a huge level of hype and suspense into the game. It also compliments the neutral game in tense moments, keeping top level players on their toes and ready to react or bait a super for a win.

So yeah, long post. Went in circles a bit, but that's my 2 cents on it. I'll probably do more research on it, because I feel this a pretty good topic overall.
 

haketh

Noob
What fucking HD combos do you actually see in KOFXIII are hard? Jesus the game has this "ZOMG so hard" mystique when it has one of the largest buffers & tons of shortcuts around.
 

NorCalSamurai

Bacon Lettuce Tomato
I think Rage arts are a good alternative.
I cannot fucking wait for T7. TTT2 rage wasn't nearly as bad, until you run face first into a death first for like 80 dmg.

I hate x factor and KI breakers. X factor is op as shit on a few characters, and Ki breakers are anti hype. Zzzzzzzzz
 

Gurpwnder

Saikyo Student
Worst system ever, Tekken 6 and TTT2, if a character gets down on life, it triggers the rage mode which increases the damage output of who is losing to a stupid margin, if the character being used already does stupid damage just buff to the double with the rage mode and taking 3 hits might actually kill.

In TTT2 they tried to implement something to ease up, if you get hit by tag assault moves or get down on life, it triggers the rage mode, however the rage mode has a time limit and will go away after a nearly 7 seconds, tag crash also uses the rage mode. Still retarded when some characters already do rage damage by default tho.
Paul's deathfist in rage? Hooooo boy. Good times.
 

Gurpwnder

Saikyo Student
BAROQUE
Since I brought up the topic of Tatsunoko vs Capcom I need to bring this up because it was FAR superior to Xfactor. In general, your red health on hit could be burned to enter a state with damage and speed buffs to increase combo potential and damage output at the expense of recoverable health. Drop the combo though and thats it...baroque ended and you lost health. The buff increased the more damage you took, but you had to be able to hit confirm into it or you pretty well used the cancel up and burned off your red health for nothing and you had to be technical enough to not drop the combo. Additionally the Baroque activation acted as a cancel and could even be used on reaction to negate blowback. This was the only reason to do it outside of hit...to negate Megacrash blowback and punish breakers. It was great.

Pros- excellent risk reward setup here of sacrificing health for the potential to hit a really powerful combo.
Pros- could be used to cancel out of a move or out of blowback
Cons- it allowed folks to bait out the combo breakers in TvC and ignore their blowback and fully punish them making Megacrashing at high level sketchy at best...this overly rewarded pressure characters. Mainly Zero whose moves already marched him so far forward that with his frame data he could ignore pushblocking.
Cons- meant for a tag system because it relies on a system that has recoverable red health when you tag out. MKX is single player. Health cannot be recovered by tagging so it would require a system where you could burn meter to recover red health or burn it to do a combo and both in a single player game overly reward bad play.
Another possible con to baroque is that if you had a great character like Zero and they had a lifelead and meter, how're you supposed to hurt them?
 

Gurpwnder

Saikyo Student
One thing I don't like about SF4 and CVS2 is life scaling. I'd rather the damage be consistent across the lifebar and characters have a bit more life to compensate or something.