Comeback Mechanisms in Fighting Games

[SneakyTortoise]

Okay, so the point of this thread is to discuss the pros and cons of the different comeback mechanisms that different fighting games have, gauge people’s opinions on comeback mechanisms and see if we can come to come sort of conclusion on what the best system would be or whether there is any need for them at all (hopeful I know).

For those who don’t know what I’m talking about, I’m referring to the way in which a fighting game provides the person with a life deficit a chance to get back into the match so that they don’t get their ass completely handed to them.

NRS always take a fairly straight forward approach to their comeback mechanisms. Let’s consider MK9 first. You get hit, you get meter. You can use this meter to hurt your opponent with EX moves or an X-Ray or you use it to prevent further damage caused to yourself with a breaker.

Injustice they used the same idea of getting hit = meter awarded, but then they developed it further with the controversial wager system (which I actually believe is a good design and am yet to see an argument that suggests otherwise). However, both of these comeback mechanisms punish the attack for doing what they are supposed to do; hurt their opponent. I don’t believe that this should ever be the case in a fighting game.

Street Fighter 4. In my opinion, a better comeback design than that of NRS games, despite being fairly similar. In street fighter, when you get hit, your super bar does not increase. What does increase instead is their ‘Ultra’ bar. Now, you could argue that this still rewards the player getting hit and therefor punishes the player doing the attack, however, all it does is give the player taking the hit one option and the player doing the attack knows exactly what that option is and exactly what to look out for. This feels like a better design than the comeback mechanisms in NRS games to me.

The Soul Calibur series has the “Ring out” system, where either player can win the round, regardless of the health status, by knocking the opponent out of the ring. I personally think that this is actually one of the most elegant systems. If someone wins a round by a ring out then they have worked hard for it. They have manipulated the opponent into an area that they did not want to be in and then capitalized on it. It also does not punish the player for landing attacks on their opponent.

I’m unaware of any fighting game that has no comeback factor. I don’t know why this is. Is it necessary? Should the game make an effort to make it a fair fight in any way other than character balance?


I want to hear from everyone who has an opinion on the matter. If you have experience of many fighters and have a preference for particular comeback mechanisms then please share your thoughts.

TLDR: What is your opinion on comeback factors in fighting games?

I'm going to tag people I think might take an interest/have an opinion on the matter
@Youphemism
@DarthArma
@AVN PTH jonnitti
@GGA 16 Bit
@GGA Max
@GGA Saucy Jack
@Tom Brady

 

[Amplified$hotz]

@Protagonist_1
@Vulcan Hades
@THTB

 

[Eddy Wang]

Worst system ever, Tekken 6 and TTT2, if a character gets down on life, it triggers the rage mode which increases the damage output of who is losing to a stupid margin, if the character being used already does stupid damage just buff to the double with the rage mode and taking 3 hits might actually kill.

In TTT2 they tried to implement something to ease up, if you get hit by tag assault moves or get down on life, it triggers the rage mode, however the rage mode has a time limit and will go away after a nearly 7 seconds, tag crash also uses the rage mode. Still retarded when some characters already do rage damage by default tho.

 

[Matix218]

I dont like the street fighter system of having a whole separate meter just for revenge (but like the OP said at least it only gives them one option, a single ultra move). I prefer mk's system where you gain meter by getting hit but also gain meter by doing specials (and they are the same meter) and I like how that meter gives you both offensive options (ex moves and x ray) as well as a defensive option (breaker). That system seems to have more depth than a single separate revenge meter that grants access to a single high damage special move (ultra).

 

[The Highlander]

I wouldn't say SF has a better comeback system since they also punish you for losing in the form of dizzyness... On one hand I agree with matix in that the depth of one bar is a more interesting system but on the other hand how hype would it be to be able to See X-ray's and supers more often?

 

[SneakyTortoise]

I wouldn't say SF has a better comeback system since they also punish you for losing in the form of dizzyness... On one hand I agree with matix in that the depth of one bar is a more interesting system but on the other hand how hype would it be to be able to See X-ray's and supers more often?

I get where you're coming from, but the dizziness isn't a part of their comeback factor, but instead is more of a system that rewards attack. Their comeback mechanism is purely the ultra bar

 

[vegeta]

Worst system ever, Tekken 6 and TTT2, if a character gets down on life, it triggers the rage mode which increases the damage output of who is losing to a stupid margin, if the character being used already does stupid damage just buff to the double with the rage mode and taking 3 hits might actually kill.

In TTT2 they tried to implement something to ease up, if you get hit by tag assault moves or get down on life, it triggers the rage mode, however the rage mode has a time limit and will go away after a nearly 7 seconds, tag crash also uses the rage mode. Still retarded when some characters already do rage damage by default tho.

That no longer exists in T7, now when you get put in rage you can use a "rage art" which is basically a super. Has armor but can be stopped with a low attack.
I adapted to it in T6 and TTT2 but I also hated putting in a ton of work with a good health lead only to have my opponent panic or even scrub launch me and I die for it -_-

 

[WakeUp DP]

Technically MK9 doesnt have a comeback mechanic. If xray meter was shared with ex/breakers then it could be considered a comeback mechanic.

In SF4 ultras have its own bar and it gets filled by getting hit the less life bar you have the more damage it does. That is not the case with mk9's xrays, they always do the same damage regardless. At a high level you barely see any xrays being used and if they were the opponents most likely werent as good and it didnt force them to spend meter on breakers/ex etc.

 

[AZ MotherBrain]

Ironically i feel SFxT has had the most "true" comeback mechanic, but we all know its ass.
Pandora was meant to be able to give you one last shot at defeating your opponent that lasted for a said amount of time. Basically like Marvel 3's X-factor that could only be activated as last resort.

 

[Eldriken]

(U)MvC3 has the dumbest comeback mechanic ever. X-Factor is fucking stupid.

 

[just_2swift]

hate em. if injustice didn't have clash it would help some characters late game like cyborg. hate getting clashed on when im digging in that ass in the corner.

 

[SneakyTortoise]

Technically MK9 doesnt have a comeback mechanic. If xray meter wasnt shared with ex/breakers then it could be considered a comeback mechanic.

In SF4 ultras have its own bar and it gets filled by getting him the less life bar you have the more damage it does. That is not the case with mk9's xrays, they always do the same damage regardless. At a high level you barely see any xrays being used and if they were the opponents most likely werent as good and it didnt force them to spend meter on breakers/ex etc.

I have to disagree. MK9 most definitely has a comeback mechanism. It gives the player getting hit something that they can use to get back in the game (meter). This is like the definition of a comeback mechanism.

The viability of x rays is irrelevant in this conversation as this is about game design, rather than about meta, and x rays were definitely designed to be useful as part of the comeback. The fact that they weren't doesn't really matter in this debate

 

[shaowebb]

King of Fighters XIII GAUGE SYSTEM
It uses the entire Meter System as its comeback mechanic and it involves two meters; the Super Gauge and the HD gauge. In a nutshell its a meter that fills slooooooooooowly that lets you either burn half of it to cancel a special move into a special move for half the bar at any time on hit only or if you fill the whole gauge (which means you saved it for waaaaaaaaaaaaay late in a 1 vs 1 game) you can enter a special state that lets you cancel all your moves into each other for enhanced combos and damaged for a limited time while the meter drains until empty.
Super bar:

• Guard cancel into a roll= 1 stock
• Guard cancel into blowback (really good pushblock)= 1 stock
• Super move=1 stock
• EX Special Moves= 1 stock
• EX Super moves = 2 stocks
• Neomax (lvl 3 super)= 3 stocks ALL OF HD GAUGE

It was built for a 3 man team system. When one dies the next round has you use the next team mate. Character 1 can have 3 stocks of super, Character 2 can have 4 stocks of super and Character 3 can have 5 stocks of super. This could be adjusted for 1v1 though and indeed 1v1 is in KOF 13 to prove this.

You build meter for hitting the opponent, having attacks blocked, and whiffing special moves. You also get meter from getting hit or blocking attacks.

HD (Hyper Drive) GAUGE:

• cancel special into special on hit only=1/2 HD Gauge anytime outside of HD Mode. In HD mode its 10% of gauge
• cancel normals into specials on hit OR WHIF=hd mode only
• cancel character specific moves into special on hit or whif=hd mode only
• cancel specials into specials on hit or whif=hd mode only +10% of gauge
• cancel special into super=hd mode only
• cancel super into neomax=hd mode only (note only costs 2 super stock instead of 3 when Neomax is performed this way)

You build meter for hitting the opponent, having attacks blocked, and whiffing special moves. You also get meter from getting hit or blocking attacks...it fills much slower than the Super gauge though.

It is a unique gauge that lets you enter "Hyper Drive Mode". This mode is one where the meter drains like a timer and lets the player cancel normal moves, and character specific moves into special moves as much as they want while their is still meter left. Ordinarily it would take HALF the HD Gauge to do a single cancel but if its full you can enter the HD Mode for a limited time and cancel as much as you want to increase a character's damage output and combo potential. You can also cancel Special moves into Special moves for 10% of the HD gauge while its still actively draining. In HD Mode you can cancel specials into specials on either hit OR BLOCK. Also in HD mode you can cancel Specials into Supers and even Supers into Neomax...even if they are grabs they will have their properties changed so they will combo in this state. When you cancel a move during its active frames it will automatically move you forward too so as to let you keep the combos going. Additionally in this state you can perform your Neomax for only 2 stocks of super meter. Super Meter does not increase during HD mode. HD mode can be entered into from the air.

Finally the HD gauge can let you outside of HD mode cancel specials into specials on hit only for half of the gauge.

Pros and Cons:

• PRO-Allows for exciting combos and a few "oh shit" conversions at the cost of meter
• PRO-Allows for massive comebacks if someone has the execution to maximize an HD mode combo
• CON-in a 3v3 gauntlet game like KoF 13 where Super Meter can also be built fast and hoarded for good damage the HD mode coupled with normal combo and Super damage allowed for some Touch of Death.
• CON- this system requires extremely expansive mobility and defensive tools to balance how strong it makes offense. KOF has dodge rolls, hops, guard cancels, blowback and the usage of EX moves and some cancels to check folks...MKX may not have enough options to allow such high output mechanics as an HD Gauge
• SPECULATIVE- in a 3 round 1vs1 fighter the HD gauge could be built slowly similar to SF4's Ultra Meter. Its unclear whether this would work for a later round rally or whether it would just make those with a round advantage more likely to snuff out folks struggling to gain rounds too easily.

 

[IMakeItL00kC00L]

*ding* X FACTOR

 

[Tony at Home]

Not sure if it is x factor or Tekken 6 rage that is the dumbest.

Gonna go with Tekken 6's rage, ecause it's so binary. You can be just 1 pixel away from being in Rage mode, while your opponent is just enough to be in Rage mode, and they can use that to pretty much end you before you can get Rage at all. There's no "level 1 rage" that you can activate early to help you deal with a "level 3 rage", it's just so unilaterally favoring the person who has it.

I think Rage arts are a good alternative.

 

[Eldriken]

Not sure if it is x factor or Tekken 6 rage that is the dumbest.

Gonna go with Tekken 6's rage, ecause it's so binary. You can be just 1 pixel away from being in Rage mode, while your opponent is just enough to be in Rage mode, and they can use that to pretty much end you before you can get Rage at all. There's no "level 1 rage" that you can activate early to help you deal with a "level 3 rage", it's just so unilaterally favoring the person who has it.

I think Rage arts are a good alternative.

Level 3 X-Factor can allow someone to go from being perfected to OCVing their opponent. That's pretty dumb and unfair, especially when you think of all the stupid shit already in the game.

 

[SneakyTortoise]

I see lots of bad ones being mentioned, let's get some good ones out there or ideas for what you think would be a good comeback mechanism

 

[@MylesWright_]

The wager system can't even be considered a comeback mechanic when it does the exact opposite and ensures players without the life-lead certainly lose

 

[Eldriken]

The wager system can't even be considered a comeback mechanic when it does the exact opposite and ensures players without the life-lead certainly lose

I'm sure @Under_The_Mayo would disagree with you.

 

[Tony at Home]

Clash in Injustice is a good comeback mechanic.

KI's Instinct mechanic also works well. It's like X Factor except not completely dumb.

 

[Prinz]

I think exactly the opposite. SF doesn't give you any option variety. It's plain meter building. You get hit, you build ultra, you don't have enough bar - you die. You may never get to use your ex bars also. MK, however, you have at least 3 options - enhaced special, breaker or x-ray from the same bar. This gives you a lot of opportunities to come back, it's simpler, it's more efficient. Getting hit also becomes a strategy in this regard. I can't say how many times I got hit on purpose just to break a combo or get an enhanced special. Also imagine fighting Quan or Cyrax without building bar from getting hit -.-
Tekken rage and MvC x factor are lazy as hell.

 

[Ecodus]

Clash in Injustice is a good comeback mechanic.

KI's Instinct mechanic also works well. It's like X Factor except not completely dumb.

I find clash in injustice an interesting one. I think it is MU specific. let's take WoWo vs Doomsday for example. DD is very meter dependant and WoWo seems to always have meter (because of her high meterless dmg) in this case clash may often times be a bad idea.

 

[shaowebb]

Combo breaking

PROS- almost completely alleviates Touch of Death tactics in most fighters and enforces more reset oriented tactics which leads to a bit moree footsy and less "I've seen this movie before" long combo style of playing.
CONS- if you do not limit the amount of combo breakers in the match somehow by either a set limit or a meter cost that hampers other options you end up in a game where comebacks and momentum are hard to build. I've played fighters before that didn't hamper breaking and it was the most herky jerky flow of matches ever. Alternatively though if you do tie it to the same meter that offense uses you have to be careful...it can in some cases make some offensive uses of meter completely irrelevant like in Tatsunoko vs Capcom when it made the usage of supers completely irrelevant to breakers. MK9 did well with its breaker balance imo, but to see more Xrays it might be nice to put those by themselves on a slower building ultra style meter that would typically only net you one xray chance in a set and leave ex moves and other tools alongside of breakers on the same gauge.


BAROQUE
Since I brought up the topic of Tatsunoko vs Capcom I need to bring this up because it was FAR superior to Xfactor. In general, your red health on hit could be burned to enter a state with damage and speed buffs to increase combo potential and damage output at the expense of recoverable health. Drop the combo though and thats it...baroque ended and you lost health. The buff increased the more damage you took, but you had to be able to hit confirm into it or you pretty well used the cancel up and burned off your red health for nothing and you had to be technical enough to not drop the combo. Additionally the Baroque activation acted as a cancel and could even be used on reaction to negate blowback. This was the only reason to do it outside of hit...to negate Megacrash blowback and punish breakers. It was great.

Pros- excellent risk reward setup here of sacrificing health for the potential to hit a really powerful combo.
Pros- could be used to cancel out of a move or out of blowback
Cons- it allowed folks to bait out the combo breakers in TvC and ignore their blowback and fully punish them making Megacrashing at high level sketchy at best...this overly rewarded pressure characters. Mainly Zero whose moves already marched him so far forward that with his frame data he could ignore pushblocking.
Cons- meant for a tag system because it relies on a system that has recoverable red health when you tag out. MKX is single player. Health cannot be recovered by tagging so it would require a system where you could burn meter to recover red health or burn it to do a combo and both in a single player game overly reward bad play.

 

[ChaosTheory]

MK9 did it right. That's why it's coming back. It's too simplified to view it as a comeback mechanic. You build meter three different ways and you can use that meter three different ways.

That's a lot different from a damage boost when you're near death like T6. The Ultra meter is SF4 gives access to your strongest move and has no other function. And it only fills from taking damage (the more damage, the more powerful).

Those are comeback mechanics. They have one purpose, they have one way to gain access to them.

 

[Eldriken]

I find clash in injustice an interesting one. I think it is MU specific. let's take WoWo vs Doomsday for example. DD is very meter dependant and WoWo seems to always have meter (because of her high meterless dmg) in this case clash may often times be a bad idea.

AGREEEEEEED. UGH. I most of the time absolutely refuse to clash against WoWo because she always has as much meter as I do or more. -.-