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Comeback Mechanisms in Fighting Games

vegeta

Saiyan Prince
I'm all for mechanics or comeback factors that seem more balanced or require skilled use but aren't overkill. I already went over my opinion in my main game (Tekken). I dislike capitalizing on my opponents mistakes and earning hits the whole time especially if the skill gap is clear, only to make ONE mistake while they are raged and they proceed to do the only thing they bothered to study which is a combo and I die. I hit you 8 times for 8 mistakes, yet I made ONE and lose.
I don't play it but Marvel......x-factor, in addition to Virgil.....*sigh*
To me the whole game is a 50/50 into combo video. Some matches are fun to watch. Everyone tells me though it is fun to watch but frustrating to play lol
 

Law Hero

There is a head on a pole behind you
I strongly dislike most comeback mechanics simply because I believe they're there more for the casual crowd.

That being said, while not perfect, I do think Tekken Tag Tournament 2's rage mechanics were done really well. There's more depth and options to it than just a super or an X-Factor that you can pop any time. Characters (depending on the team) get rage at certain points in their life bars, so it's not uncommon to see people end combos early in order to avoid putting the opponent's partner in rage mode. It can frustrate the opponent while also often keeping them one combo away from death, eliminating the threat of rage completely.

Another aspect I like about it is how it is related to your bigger Tag Assault combos. If you're going for max damage possible, you'll be giving your opponent rage often which works against you; therefor, it's important for you to manage your combos so that you can maximize damage in the most efficient way possible with one character. I think this helps put a bigger emphasis on the Oki game where a player will sacrifice damage for a reset, THEN attempt a big damage combo to cripple the other character; additionally, when a character earns rage, the mind games can change to focus on one player attempting to safely tag out and the other preparing to punish or prevent it.

And finally is the Tag Crash mechanic that I know isn't too popular. While most people don't like it, I enjoy how it adds another layer of depth to the rage system, allowing one player to burn his rage for a relatively safe tag out. It many cases it can be considered a victory for the player on the offense to be rid of the opponent's rage, so it often acts as an "Oki Breaker" ending the pressure in exchange for Rage damage. I think all these aspects of it make it more than a simple comeback mechanic and adds a lot of depth and strategy towards offense and defense, as well as managing not only your lifebars, but also your opponent's. It's not perfect, but I believe it works well.

Edit: I should also add that I prefer a rage mechanic that doesn't simply do damage like a super. With Rage, you have to at the very least, open up your opponent for a combo or successfully pressure and poke them to capitalize on it. It's not a single hitting move that suddenly levels the playing field. I prefer these mechanics over comeback supers.
 

dreemernj

Ambassador
I see comeback mechanics as training wheels. If a fighter has some sort of comeback mechanic, I'd want it to be something that is completely useless in even moderately skilled play.

I think, instead of a comeback mechanic, a game should provide each character with a large number of options. Instead of giving the player that took more damage an advantage, give them a chance to ditch the strategy that wasn't working in favor of a different strategy that may work.
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
Interesting tag but thanks lol

I think Injustice's wager system is kind of imbalanced, but it's necessary at some times which makes it weird to think about.
  • Firstly, it's not even guaranteed that you'll get to use it to get health back with all the b3 and f3 or bounce cancel combos and general unclashable damage in the game.
  • Then you've got to deal with characters that don't even need to use their meter. Think about the Wonder Woman vs Shazam matchup for example, he needs to spend meter to do damage and she doesn't. If Shazam ends up with a life lead then this leaves Wonder Woman in a situation where it isn't so bad since if need be she might be able to clash and get health back, but if Wonder Woman ends up with a health lead she's free to do normal clashable bnbs because chances are she'll have more meter and will be able to do even more damage to him if he clashes.
    • In this situation the wager mechanic is pretty much useless to Shazam but great for Wonder Woman.
It's stupid to think that wager actually can affect matchups because some characters get to use it more effectively than others and some can't even use it because it will hurt them. A mechanic that is supposed to help with comebacks actually doesn't half of the time........ LOL


Breaker is interesting.
  • Offender does a combo, defender breaks the combo and puts himself at a distance from the opponent at the cost of two bars of meter.
Take Kabal and Liu Kang for instance, they can throw out projectiles most of the time and build meter. Not only that but most of their combos don't require meter either. This makes the breaker system hugely advantageous to them as they can still do damage and take advantage of their best offensive tools no matter how much meter they have and any meter they do have can go towards breakers.
Whereas if we look at Jax or Quan Chi it makes it more difficult for them because if they make one wrong move they have to give up their best offensive tool if they don't want to get damaged. They need to relieve themselves of meter that they need to stop their opponent from comboing them.​

I wouldn't really call it a comeback mechanic as such since it doesn't really leave the person that used the breaker at an advantage. They're down two bars, if the offender lands another combo the defender has to deal with it, and it's not like they're full screen after they break so the positional "advantage" depends on the character.


I haven't played many other fighting games that much to be able to discuss their comeback mechanics but yeah that's what I think about Injustice's and MK9's.
 
E

Eldriken

Guest
I'm all for mechanics or comeback factors that seem more balanced or require skilled use but aren't overkill. I already went over my opinion in my main game (Tekken). I dislike capitalizing on my opponents mistakes and earning hits the whole time especially if the skill gap is clear, only to make ONE mistake while they are raged and they proceed to do the only thing they bothered to study which is a combo and I die. I hit you 8 times for 8 mistakes, yet I made ONE and lose.
I don't play it but Marvel......x-factor, in addition to Virgil.....*sigh*
To me the whole game is a 50/50 into combo video. Some matches are fun to watch. Everyone tells me though it is fun to watch but frustrating to play lol
Vergil and Zero + X-Factor 3 = Dumbest shit in the world.

Neither of those characters should have access to X-Factor.
 

trufenix

bye felicia
1) come back mechanics are the bane of competitive gaming.
2) unless the meter is solely dedicated to comebacks (sf4), gaining meter for getting hit (and the abilities linked to it) is not a comeback mechanic.
 
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shaowebb

Get your guns on. Sheriff is back.
Vergil and Zero + X-Factor 3 = Dumbest shit in the world.

Neither of those characters should have access to X-Factor.
HSH with Vergil is ridiculous. Plus all you see is him throw out the boomerang and from half screen is able to mixup and kill all 3 cast. Plus he has the friggin' sword loops off of nearly any launcher setup already. Zero was a character who I called being busted when the patch notes for UMVC3 were released and it said he could cancel shit with buster. I knew then and there he was going to be a loop monster. Never wanted to see Zero made better than even his TvC iteration but there it was. If they would contain the Xfactor stuff by swapping it for Baroque, remove the TAC infinite and TAC system to replace it with Aerial Raves and then tweak Hidden Missile so it FUCKING DISAPPEARED WHEN HE GOT HIT and didn't hit 6 times it'd be a lot better.

There is a metric shitload of other changes to the cast that need done too, but thats a march through months of patch debate that I've done in the past that I don't care to do again. Kill TAC for aerial rave, Kill Xfactor for baroque, fucking change Hidden missile because its a god damned free combo breaker and we might actually see some team variety again.

ugh...there are reasons I dumped this game so early into Ultimate.

Yeah...Xfactor is stupid and nothing like it should exist again.
 

trufenix

bye felicia
xfactor and TAC and Doom are like, a tiny part of whats fucked up with marvel. It would take nothing short of an entire new upgrade to fix it.
 
E

Eldriken

Guest
HSH with Vergil is ridiculous. Plus all you see is him throw out the boomerang and from half screen is able to mixup and kill all 3 cast. Plus he has the friggin' sword loops off of nearly any launcher setup already. Zero was a character who I called being busted when the patch notes for UMVC3 were released and it said he could cancel shit with buster. I knew then and there he was going to be a loop monster. Never wanted to see Zero made better than even his TvC iteration but there it was. If they would contain the Xfactor stuff by swapping it for Baroque, remove the TAC infinite and TAC system to replace it with Aerial Raves and then tweak Hidden Missile so it FUCKING DISAPPEARED WHEN HE GOT HIT and didn't hit 6 times it'd be a lot better.

There is a metric shitload of other changes to the cast that need done too, but thats a march through months of patch debate that I've done in the past that I don't care to do again. Kill TAC for aerial rave, Kill Xfactor for baroque, fucking change Hidden missile because its a god damned free combo breaker and we might actually see some team variety again.

ugh...there are reasons I dumped this game so early into Ultimate.

Yeah...Xfactor is stupid and nothing like it should exist again.
Lightning loops are probably one of the worst things about the game. Then, X-Factor 3 Zero gets level 3 Buster so fast due to X-Factor increasing your speed and I believe his Buster charges based on frames and not a specific time. So, faster frames in X-Factor 3 = faster level 3 Buster which leads to some really dumb shit.
 

shaowebb

Get your guns on. Sheriff is back.
xfactor and TAC and Doom are like, a tiny part of whats fucked up with marvel. It would take nothing short of an entire new upgrade to fix it.
Thats the general consensus we had on neogaf that resulted in about a year of debate on how to fix that mess character by character right down to the meter gain and core mechanics. Once we broke it down it was a fucking trainwreck to view. Here's a small example from me.

Iron fist can't get in on folks. Iron Fist has a launcher you have to use on grounded opponents only. Iron fist relies on his crumple rekka to extend his combos and get damage since his supers don't do a lot and he usually uses 2 bars in super per combo for damage. Iron Fist has only one overhead to mix folks up with his pressure once he gets in...if he uses it as a starter he puts them in a bounce state and can no longer use his launcher or crumple for extensions. Ironfist has no double jump or air dash. If Ironfist air throws from too great a height he cannot convert the throw to combo. Iron fist has two good rekkas...one causes a wallbounce and has a lot of armor for close range usage and would be a great alternative to crumple/launcher combos for damage. He can't do it unless he does 3 rekkas first. He has another Rekka that actually gets him in and causes a wallbounce. It comes out fast and would punish jumpers and give him an option vs runaway for moderate damage and a way to setup pressure...it also cannot be used without performing 3 rekkas prior.

End result...dude who can't go for crossups who never jumps who can't use his one high low mixup because it ruins the damage on his only chances for combos.

This is just a taste of how fucking bad the roster's issues with balance for the environment they are playing in actually is. You should see how bad it is to breakdown the overpowered cast and try to retool their stuff to make them functional...god damned nightmare.

Marvel rant aside though comeback mechanics are rough. As you can tell from Marvel they often take the good and make them broken more than they take the weak and give them a fighting chance. A lot of mechanics only serve to further gaps more so than allow comebacks.
 

trufenix

bye felicia
Marvel rant aside though comeback mechanics are rough. As you can tell from Marvel they often take the good and make them broken more than they take the weak and give them a fighting chance. A lot of mechanics only serve to further gaps more so than allow comebacks.
Well, xfactor is a pretty shit mechanic, but the fact that it does have an "offensive" application gives it a few bonus points over something like Rage or Ultra which literally only exists to ruin the winners party. Also, while xf3 makes a couple high tier characters bullshit, most of them are already pretty obnoxious anyway, meanwhile it lets a whole host of characters exist as anchors or combo fodder that without it would be suicide to even put on your team.
 

Under_The_Mayo

Master of Quanculations
I'm sure @Under_The_Mayo would disagree with you.
Yeah that was just a big ball of LOL. You specifically have to lower your damage, and in many situations are left with NO followup to a confirmed hit. Which just increases the chances of them making a comeback on you because you are strictly forbidden from closing out the match.
 

SneakyTortoise

Official Master of Salt
2) unless the meter is solely dedicated to comebacks (sf4), gaining meter for getting hit (and the abilities linked to it) is not a comeback mechanic.
You're thinking really narrow mindedly about comeback mechanisms by saying that.

How can a system where the player getting hit, and losing life, is then given something they can use to get back in the game not be considered a comeback mechanism?

Just because you have this prejudiced thought about comeback mechanisms, where they automatically make the game bad, doesn't mean that MK9 doesn't have one. It most certainly does.