Move List - Ermac changes Ermac needs with kp2

[Metzos]

thank you everyone for you responses, this is exactly the brainstorming i was hoping for! i will update OP according to general consensus!


what is there to see, one of the top ermac players since 2011 suggested something which didnt came to my mind, and i agreed it would benefit character immensely.



did anyone in entirety of the game seen anyone ever use f2d2? that move is useless, it should be a substitute for f21d2 which has gap. but that is not happening because f2d2 is -14. nothing to gain by using that.



i have to disagree here. many players myself including use 222 for mix ups. it is very important ermac tool. 1) 2nd hit needs to hit mid or it becomes full combo punishables. 2) player should have the choice to do 222 soul ball or teleport and be full combo punishable. or do pure 222 and be safe. why we are being punished for either of these two options. if i die im going yolo anyways. And this is wrong. Same goes for b3 and f4. Their respectful full strings should either be safe, or be unsafe if canceled into specials. The choice should be on a player. Both choices should not be full combo punishable.

yes, b2 on block cancels into another specials but does not cancel into levitate.

i agree. -8 with pushback is decent.

i agree. +2 with great pushback is acceptable.

let me explain, up soul burst can be used in mixups, it can hit opponent, be safe but let him go, whereas pure straight soul burst on hit can give plus frames like it does now but be more unsafe. anyway this is exactly what many ermac players do these days anyways. f4into up soul burst, to be safe. instead of full combo f4 tp etc.

im spending a meter to be -3. am not even asking armor. tremor can jail with his projectiles on block without meter, same with dvorah. im simply asking the ability to cancel some strings by spending one meter and be a little bit safe afterwards. Am i greedy person for asking this? Maybe. Am i crazy? hell no im not.


when comboing try ending with soul trap (ex version), soul trap passes much faster then regular version, it is very inconsistent. what is the reasoning for that? spend 1 meter for what exactly, it doesnt even give enough lock frames to continue combo.

i completely forgot about this. this is something that many of ermac players suggested. and i agree. mystic is a zoner that needs his zoning tools.

Regarding 222, well most players shouldnt use it for pressure or footsies. Its not that good for that, thats why you have d3 with extremely good hit adv, thats why you have f34 which covers a great distance. So no, imo, 222 should not be used for pressure. 222 is a punish string.

Regarding force port being -3f on block, i really hope you are joking. NO ONE in MKX has a safe teleport, especially a teleport which leads to a shit load of dmg. -3f on block is not "a little bit safe" like you said. Its COMPLETELY safe against anyone.

Why use f2d2? You have f212 which is safe.

Also another buff Ermac should get is, make f34 uninterruptible.

All in all, some of the buffs you suggested are logical, but some are a bit overkill man. Just because the majority of the MKX cast is braindead, it wont make the game better if you put MORE braindead characters in it. Ermac can be super viable with some small tweaks here and there (already mentioned above).

 

[BoromiRofGeo]

fix b2 not canceling into hover on block Does it only cancel on block in Spectral? You don't get much off of hover in not-Spectral so this isn't needed.

yes it does not cancel in other variations. what do you mean it is not needed. it is a bug and should be fixed, i will decide in my gameplay as each ermac to their own what is needed and what is not but it should be working!

make air soul burst +5 on block (from -5) No, too good for Spectral.

as a matter of fact i made a mistake, it already is +5 in corner. i will remove that.

make force lift -40 on block (from -51) Not needed.
make tele-lift -25 on block (from -51) spending a bar should either wield 1) be safe 2) faster startup Unnecessary.

i somewhat agree.

Regarding 222, well most players shouldnt use it for pressure or footsies. Its not that good for that, thats why you have d3 with extremely good hit adv, thats why you have f34 which covers a great distance. So no, imo, 222 should not be used for pressure. 222 is a punish string.

i dont agree with your generalization. all tools are to be used. some tools used in unlogical situations create mind games by itself. it is hard to explain by words, ill record vid for random match with ermac and tag you. mb tomorrow.

Regarding force port being -3f on block, i really hope you are joking. NO ONE in MKX has a safe teleport, especially a teleport which leads to a shit load of dmg. -3f on block is not "a little bit safe" like you said. Its COMPLETELY safe against anyone.

but this is what i really dont get in mkx. kitanas single fan is safe and on hit leads to massive damage. kung lao abuses his hat cuz its just -4 and it leads to full combo but i spend 1 bar to be a little bit safe and everybody suddenly loses their mind? im not asking for armor. im simply suggesting to make EX version of stuff useful. please, tell me then what usage does ex teleport has outside of 1 hit of inconsistent armor on wakeup, which is, lets be real real, njp and gg. thats how easy it is to counter and full combo punish.

A lot of your changes turn Ermac from unsafe 50/50 character to an unsafe 50/50 character with safe 50/50s if he feels like it.

i want to ask people who said that b34 and f43 need not be safe. just listen me out for one sec.
f43 leads to 12% damage and is unsafe and full combo punishable.
f4 tp leads into 40% vortex and is unsafe and full combo punishable.
why ermac would ever use f43 if it wields nothing in comparison for his more unsafe counterpart ?
most of changes i suggested are centered exactly on this, to give choice to stay with low damage and safe, or go full yolo but unsafe.
because right now he doesnt have a choice really. he's all yolo.

 

[Big D]

make b124 cancelable - BigD mentioned this. I can't see its relevance.

B124 is somewhat of a great stagger string, as it is neutral on block. Most players wait for a d1 as a follow up. The ability to special cancel this string adds in an extra level of mind games as to if I'll take a risk, stagger the string again, d1, grab, etc.

The MAIN reason though is that players who actually understand this character realize there is no real threat to eating the last hit. Doing so removes all possibilities of a follow-up game; which Ermac's meta game focuses on.

If having this string become cancellable is considered "too much," option B would be to have the opponent in a staggered state like Ermac's 312 string in MK9 (which lead to a free jump in on hit)

 

[BoromiRofGeo]

i just updated OP in accordance to everyone's responses.

 

[Geoffmeister]

"
general:
give mystic and spectral level 1 projectile. - spectral needs it, mystic can levitate/force push
fix b12 not hitting mid mids should hit mid
fix 222 not hitting mid (especially on females) mid mids should hit mid
fix b2 not canceling into hover on block they do, you press up a few frames after the hit
make b124 cancelable yes, would like it to combo into teleport,d1,soul ball
make b32 cancelable strong buff, not necesarry in my opinion
make b2 3+4 1 2 come out even on block as long as it stays punishable
make b2 either true unblockable or make it +5 (?) (from +2) on block probably gamebreaking, I'd rather have the 3+4,1,2 come out on block
make soul burst -8 on block (from -14) with small pushback I was thinking -11, basically same thing, except you won't be able to follow up with a poke, which I think is fair
make soul blast +2 on block (from -5) with big pushback I don't want ermac to have any specials plus, it'll be too much
make b34 -6 on block (from -10) sure
make f43 -7 on block (from -11) with small pushback fair
make f2d2 -3 on block (from -14) fair
make d3 -3 on block (from -6) that's a bit much, I think the poke is fine as is
make up soul burst -3 on block (from -9) -5 is enough
make tele-lift -25 on block (from -51) spending a bar should either wield 1) be safe 2) faster startup it should be safer than -51, for sure.. but spending a bar doesn't need to be faster or safe
make force port -7 on block (from -17) with small pushback thats too safe.. maybe -15 at best
decrease startup on b2 to 25 (from 32) sure
decrease startup on lift to 11 (from 13) not necesarry..
decrease recovery on force lift to -50 (from -66) not necesarry..
decrease recovery on tele-lift to -25 (from -66) spending a bar should either wield 1) be safe 2) faster startup not necesarry..
increase recovery on d3 to 16 (from 12) its fine as is
increase hitbox on air soul burst its fine as is

Master of Souls
fix unable to chain combos after soul trap I'd love this
make soul ball lvl3 -20 (from -23)
make soul ball lvl1 -5
make soul trap -10 (from -23)
increase scaling on soul trap
decrease startup on Disappear to 13 (from 17) sure
decrease startup on Vanish to 10 (from 17) sure
decrease recovery on Disappear to 15 (from 22) sure
decrease recovery on Vanish to 10 (from 22) I think 15 would be fast enough

(a Vanish/Disappear buff would be nice)

Mystic
make tele-choke -15 (from -24) sure
make levitate -5 (from -24)
make tele-hang -40 (from -51)
make tele-hold -25 (from -51)
"

Personally I think this is asking for a lot, Ermac is good but the unsafety is too detrimental for high level play. If his pressure gets slightly addressed it'll be enough, take away some of his damage if need be, I honestly feel he needs these at a minimum:
Global:
- b124 special cancellable
- normal Soul Burst -11
- 112 at -6 (from -10)
MoS:
- EX Soul Ball -9 on block
Mystic:
- Force Choke & Ex Force Choke at around -18, from -24, meter drain working as intended

 

[Icy Black Deep]

When you say 'level one projectile' what do you mean by that? Like MoS projectile? Cos they definitely shouldn't get that.

Like MoS level 1 projectile. When MoS has three souls orbiting him his soul ball is a mid, captures and leads to all his stuff. When he has fewer than three souls orbiting him it's basically a plain ol' projectile (including being a high).

 

[BoromiRofGeo]

- EX Soul Ball -9 on block

you probably started writing before i updated OP. I've updated it again, following some of your advices, though i strongly will all my passion believe that if i spend one bar i should get at least something. im not asking candy or armor. also air soul burst needs some tweaking, its hitbox is abysmal. with bigger hitbox it would give good pressure possibilities.

increase recovery on d3 to 16 (from 12) its fine as is

no its not bro, its spammable as f*ck d3d3d3 f4 all day. recovery should be increased, minus on block should be decreased.

decrease recovery on Vanish to 10 (from 22) I think 15 would be fast enough

vanilla disappear should be 15 frames. and in case if i spend one bar it better wield some immediate results.

 

[insignis]

After a bit of thinking and considering that only MoS variation exists. I would love to see ground ex dissapear to have instant recovery. I would not need anything else, leave brust, mixups, etc unsafe. Instant recovery on ex dissapear will be awesome
ATM dissapear on the ground is completely useless.

 

[God Confirm]

no its not bro, its spammable as f*ck d3d3d3 f4 all day. recovery should be increased, minus on block should be decreased.

It's -12 if you use it and it whiffs, that's officially your opponents turns but hard as shit to punish, that's how it should be. Making it -3 on block? That seriously makes it BECOMES spammable, spamming it beats out or trades with every 11 frames or slower, you literally have to have a faster mid that than just to get out lol, tell me exactly how does Quan Chi get out of properly spaced D3 spam against him in the corner lol it would literally be a block infinite

D3 is fine as is, just leave it

 

[Jaku2011]

As a Jason player I wouldn't even ask for all this crazy shit

 

[insignis]

It's -12 if you use it and it whiffs, that's officially your opponents turns but hard as shit to punish, that's how it should be. Making it -3 on block? That seriously makes it BECOMES spammable, spamming it beats out or trades with every 11 frames or slower, you literally have to have a faster mid that than just to get out lol, tell me exactly how does Quan Chi get out of properly spaced D3 spam against him in the corner lol it would literally be a block infinite

D3 is fine as is, just leave it

Quan's d3 is -1 on block

As a Jason player I wouldn't even ask for all this crazy shit

It's like a homeless won't wish a car with working breaks as he doesn't have a car at all. Irrelevant

 

[Jaku2011]

Quan's d3 is -1 on block

It's like a homeless won't wish a car with working breaks as he doesn't have a car at all. Irrelevant

Ya I don't wish a car.

 

[BoromiRofGeo]

It's -12 if you use it and it whiffs, that's officially your opponents turns but hard as shit to punish, that's how it should be. Making it -3 on block? That seriously makes it BECOMES spammable, spamming it beats out or trades with every 11 frames or slower, you literally have to have a faster mid that than just to get out lol, tell me exactly how does Quan Chi get out of properly spaced D3 spam against him in the corner lol it would literally be a block infinite

the reason it is spammable right now because it is -6 and 12 recovery frames. making it -3 and -16 recovery nullify (absolutely) spam. ps. also some of the d3 in this game are plus. so...

As a Jason player I wouldn't even ask for all this crazy shit

that is why your character will stay the worst character in mkx and you would have noone to blame for but yourself.

 

[Jaku2011]

the reason it is spammable right now because it is -6 and 12 recovery frames. making it -3 and -16 recovery nullify (absolutely) spam.

that is why your character will stay the worst character in mkx and you would have noone to blame for but yourself.

What are you talking about I'm picking up the chainsaw man. Also I want Jason to be mid tier not stupid.

 

[BoromiRofGeo]

What are you talking about I'm picking up the chainsaw man.

he will take spot near jason. you can take screenshot of this post.

 

[Jaku2011]

he will take spot near jason. you can take screenshot of this post.

you take that back

 

[Geoffmeister]

you probably started writing before i updated OP. I've updated it again, following some of your advices, though i strongly will all my passion believe that if i spend one bar i should get at least something. im not asking candy or armor. also air soul burst needs some tweaking, its hitbox is abysmal. with bigger hitbox it would give good pressure possibilities.

no its not bro, its spammable as f*ck d3d3d3 f4 all day. recovery should be increased, minus on block should be decreased.

vanilla disappear should be 15 frames. and in case if i spend one bar it better wield some immediate results.

- Hm, I don't see any changes to EX Soul ball, but I noticed your request for -15 on normal soul ball.. It's too much. Ermac should have very unsafe mixups.. his soul ball traps and guarantees 30% (full screen conversion) and 35%+ (optimal), I think people should be able to bait his soul ball and punish, making Ermac think before throwing it out willy-nilly.. I believe this change would make Ermac brain dead

- I misread and thought you meant Soul Burst (Up), it could use a bigger hitbox but it really won't matter much.. Either you buffer it correctly or you get punished for it.. seems fair to me, if anything I'd rather have decent hit advantage on Air SB, that's all.

- d3 being spammable is online bs, it'll lose to <14 frame mid/lows

- the EX Vanish has very early invincibility frames, I believe if his recovery is faster it'll be worth to use AND spend a bar on, 10 recovery after being fully invincible sounds a bit too fast to me (it'll be too easy to use). 15 is faster than what it is now and I think it's enough for it to be viable. Ground vanish should get the same treatment, I barely see use for it

On a sidenote, I like this discussion, it's all suggestions and brainstorming which is cool but maybe it'll help to seperate realistic/highly requested buffs from suggestions, I fear the OP won't be taken serious otherwise and might make people more sceptic to the fact that Ermac truly needs a little something.

general:
make b124 cancelable - BigD mentioned this. I can't see its relevance.
make b2 3+4 +3 on block - There it is!
make b2 3+4 1 2 +2 on block - And again! On fire bro!
make soul blast +5 on block (from -5) - I agree this should be + but 5?
make f43 -6 on block (from -11) - Honestly, this is just insanity...
make f2d2 -3 on block (from -14) ffs

I'm gonna stop there before I cry a little bit. Ermac is meaty af. There are a few tweaks he does require but this is insanity bro. He would make Quan Chi look like a fucking kitten.

- I know you know Big D already explained the b124-special cancel, but I want to emphasize how important this is for his pressure
- I agree that they should not be plus but having b2 3+4 on block doesn't seem too much of a big deal, sure they're all launching hits but the timing for the continuation of 25%~ optimal combo damage is strict, remember it's a 32 frame startup hit with zero pay off at the moment (spectral can make use of it, though).
- I don't agree with any specials on plus for Ermac.. He really does not need it.
- f43 being -11 is silly, it should be -7 (punishable by a few reversal specials, not combo punishable)
- there's no risk blocking f2d2 or f21, this would not be a problem, just not necesarry

 

[BoromiRofGeo]

- Hm, I don't see any changes to EX Soul ball, but I noticed your request for -15 on normal soul ball.. It's too much. Ermac should have very unsafe mixups.. his soul ball traps and guarantees 30% (full screen conversion) and 35%+ (optimal), I think people should be able to bait his soul ball and punish, making Ermac think before throwing it out willy-nilly.. I believe this change would make Ermac brain dead

to be fair, -15 is still full combo punishable from almost fullscreen by every character in the game. i only suggest it because if mystic going to receive level 1 projectile that it should be weak and little unsafe but not full combo punishable.

- d3 being spammable is online bs, it'll lose to <14 frame mid/lows

online not online it really does not matter, it is a problem that should be addressed somehow. (to be honest, in hands of good ermac b3 is spammable even offline)

- the EX Vanish has very early invincibility frames, I believe if his recovery is faster it'll be worth to use AND spend a bar on, 10 recovery after being fully invincible sounds a bit too fast to me (it'll be too easy to use). 15 is faster than what it is now and I think it's enough for it to be viable. Ground vanish should get the same treatment, I barely see use for it

my logic was based on changes mileena got

vanish should be absolutely useful with 1 bar and it should fit into some gaps.

- f43 being -11 is silly, it should be -7 (punishable by a few reversal specials, not combo punishable)

i already talked about b34 and f43 in higher post, check that out.

 

[I Am The LK]

Only thing Ermac is getting is a nerf

 

[Ragnarök Tyr]

There isn't much about him to nerf given his standing in the game vs the other more commonly seen Top Characters.

 

[xInfra Deadx]

 

[Geoffmeister]

to be fair, -15 is still full combo punishable from almost fullscreen by every character in the game. i only suggest it because if mystic going to receive level 1 projectile that it should be weak and little unsafe but not full combo punishable.

online not online it really does not matter, it is a problem that should be addressed somehow. (to be honest, in hands of good ermac b3 is spammable even offline)

my logic was based on changes mileena got

vanish should be absolutely useful with 1 bar and it should fit into some gaps.

i already talked about b34 and f43 in higher post, check that out.

you can go for a double d3 against a few members of the roster, if you know they'll follow up with a high.. it's really not an issue offline.

The changes on Mileena were based on her character as a whole, her recovery seems faster than 15 frames but she needed that.. Ermac having sortof the same thing is too much.. Look at it from this perspective, vanish/disappear can whiff punish a few specials with a 2-3 frame gap,
video for reference

if the recovery decreases these things become all the more easier, while 5 frames is acceptable, 12 frame reduction on the whiff recovery is too much..
I think people should still be able to punish a recovering vanish if they're patient.

b32 special cancellable won't even make Ermac broken, (it's the way MKX works now, looking at you Demolition Sonya), that being said..I don't want that, it's S tier confirmed. I want Ermac to stay balanced but also able to compete, let's not pull a shujinkydink, guys pls.

 

[Alright RyRy]

Make it so Souls don't regenerate / charge until combo is over in MoS.

 

[fr stack]

you can go for a double d3 against a few members of the roster, if you know they'll follow up with a high.. it's really not an issue offline.

The changes on Mileena were based on her character as a whole, her recovery seems faster than 15 frames but she needed that.. Ermac having sortof the same thing is too much.. Look at it from this perspective, vanish/disappear can whiff punish a few specials with a 2-3 frame gap,
video for reference

if the recovery decreases these things become all the more easier, while 5 frames is acceptable, 12 frame reduction on the whiff recovery is too much..
I think people should still be able to punish a recovering vanish if they're patient.

b32 special cancellable won't even make Ermac broken, (it's the way MKX works now, looking at you Demolition Sonya), that being said..I don't want that, it's S tier confirmed. I want Ermac to stay balanced but also able to compete, let's not pull a shujinkydink, guys pls.

i..... i think i love you !!!!! that f21 bait was amazing !!!

 

[MrProfDrPepper]

the reason it is spammable right now because it is -6 and 12 recovery frames. making it -3 and -16 recovery nullify (absolutely) spam. ps. also some of the d3 in this game are plus. so...

that is why your character will stay the worst character in mkx and you would have noone to blame for but yourself.

I dont think you know how frame data works....