Move List - Ermac changes Ermac needs with kp2

[conqueror]

all of these B characters need to go at least to A tier also Jason

 

[16 Bit]

new record for most buffs in a single post

 

[insignis]

To be honest you ask too much.

• FIX MIDS
  
• B2 may have bigger plus on block at full charge or become ublockable
• F43 and b34 should be around -8 or -7. Maybe even -9.
  
• Burst should be about -8 or -9 and blast plus on block
  
• ex teleport should still be able to juggle of when not all hits hit (wonder if anyone will understand what I mean)
  
• Dissapear on the ground should recover faster, ex dissapear should have instant or close to instant recovery. ex air dissapear should also recover faster
  
• can't say anything about mystic and spectral as I don't play them

b124 be cancelable sounds cool btw but don't think that Ermac yarns so much for it.

 

[Phosferrax]

Ex Soul Blast shouldn't really be plus. It's safe, does good damage and has push back. Don't be greedy and look for a lazy plus on block armour option, when he has fast pokes and a decent back dash. It's bad enough that Tremor has it (when no one should).

B2 being unblockable would need to not be unblockable if it was activated during any sort of capture state, other wise MOS would just end up having stupid setups.

 

[fr stack]

best if we just forget about his b2 string entirely

 

[insignis]

Ex Soul Blast shouldn't really be plus. It's safe, does good damage and has push back. Don't be greedy and look for a lazy plus on block armour option, when he has fast pokes and a decent back dash. It's bad enough that Tremor has it (when no one should).

B2 being unblockable would need to not be unblockable if it was activated during any sort of capture state, other wise MOS would just end up having stupid setups.

you can put on a timer for b2 unblockable. Or remember Sub Zero in MK9. There is always a work around to prevent broken stuff.

 

[Scott The Scot]

you can put on a timer for b2 unblockable. Or remember Sub Zero in MK9. There is always a work around to prevent broken stuff.

Ermac could loop it though because soul ball is a restand. Sub couldn't loop it.

 

[Tony at Home]

Is this a joke?

 

[Javierich0]

I can't even, he needs to many fixes. Lazy NRS version: make soul ball -7 and ex +2.

 

[Tony at Home]

that d3 you speak of is purely an online phenomenon.
d3 is -6 on block.
you want to make it -10 and full combo punishable?

Recovery frames =\= block advantage

A move that is -6 on block can have a 14 frame recovery, a 10 frame recovery, etc.

 

[Metzos]

general:
fix b12 not hitting mid

Agreed, mids should hit mid.

fix 222 not hitting mid (especially on females)

Irrelevant. 222 is a punisher string.

fix b2 not canceling into hover

I thought it did? Unless you mean on block.

make b124 cancelable

Why? B124 is a mix up on its own, since you can do insta air blast which is +9f on block and a combo starter.

make b321 cancelable

Make b32 cancelable.

make b2 3+4 1 2 come out even on block

B2 in general must be either removed or be an unblockable mix up, like MK9 and have around 18f start up.

make soul burst -5 on block (from -14)

Soul burst, should be around -8f on block. It has a bit of a push back, plus from certain normals (f3 is an example as is d3, d4 and d1 as well) it creates even more pushback.

make soul blast +5 on block (from -5)

Soul Blast should be around +2 on block. Remember Ermac has godlike down pokes.

make 11 +3 on block (from +2)

Irrelevant.

make b34 -3 on block (from -10)

B34 is a godlike mixup, its not that easy to punish it man. -10f is ok, if you make b32 cancelable into a (future) safe soul burst.

make f43 -6 on block (from -11)

F43 should be cancelable, BUT, opponent should be able to armor through f43xxspecials, no matter the special Ermac uses, to compensate for the reward Ermac would get, if his mixup succeeded. It should also be around -15f on block, for that reason.

make f2d2 -3 on block (from -14)

Agreed.

make 22 -5 on block (from -7)

Irrelevant, its not easy to punish it at all, plus as i mentioned above, 222 is a punish string.

make 222 -4 on block (from -9)

Read above.

make d2 -3 on block (from -6)

Irrelevant again, d2 cannot be punished, except perhaps Reptile can with a meager dmg.

make up soul burst -3 on block (from -9)

No reason to do that, up soul burst is an AA.

make up soul blast +1 on block (from -13)

Again, no reason.

make force lift -40 on block (from -51)

Not changing anything.

make force port -3 on block (from -17)

Wait, what? You want a safe teleport, which is also a combo starter?

decrease startup on lift to 11 (from 13)

No. Lift should be used in combos, or for very long range AA's.

increase hitbox on air soul burst

Agreed.

remove gap from f21d2

No, because you already have a safe mix up with f212. You can easily hit confirm f21 into d2. Plus its a very good punishing string as well.

Master of Souls
fix unable to chain combos after soul trap

Explain plz.

make soul ball -20 (from -23)

Irrelevant.

make soul trap -10 (from -23)

Irrelevant.

decrease startup on Disappear to 13 (from 17)

Agreed.

decrease startup on Vanish to 10 (from 17)

Agreed.

decrease recovery on Disappear to 15 (from 22)

Agreed.

decrease recovery on Vanish to 10 (from 22)

Agreed.

Mystic
decrease scaling after tele-hang and tele-hold by little margin

No, because then Mystic will be broken. If you use 1 bar you go around 40% easily. In general, his damage is around or above 30s from everywhere, which is really good for a zoner and from punishes is around 35% meterless.

make tele-choke -15 (from -24)

Agreed 100%, but reduce its active frames by 2f.

make levitate -5 (from -24)

Agreed.

make tele-hang -40 (from -51)

Irrelevant.

make tele-hold -25 (from -51)

Irrelevant.



If Ermac receives, even half of these buffs, his nerfs should be:

MoS: Damage reduction to all of his bnb's (midscreen and corner) to around 5% less. If you want current MoS damage, then spend a bar.

Post edited.

@BoromiRofGeo

 

[insignis]

Ermac could loop it though because soul ball is a restand. Sub couldn't loop it.

If developers are not retarded, they can find a way to meky everything work

 

[Scott The Scot]

If developers are not (soap bar in my mouth), they can find a way to meky everything work

Off the top of my head, they could make it the unblockable put them into the same state as the soul ball similar to how Sub Zero's put the opponent in to a freeze state. No loops and no silly damage output because he can't use soulball in the combo.

 

[insignis]

Off the top of my head, they could make it the unblockable put them into the same state as the soul ball similar to how Sub Zero's put the opponent in to a freeze state. No loops and no silly damage output because he can't use soulball in the combo.

as an example, yes
so everything can be done coorectly

 

[EntropicByDesign]

As someone who loves Ermac and wants to play him, but doesn't because reasons, this list is incredibly scary. I like MoS. Not because its believed to be his best by most, but simply because I like it the most of the three. Anything I say refers to MoS 'cause that's the variation I know and love.

I don't pretend to know what he needs as I don't really play him at all, but I really hope that whatever *is* done, he doesn't end up getting a damage nerf.. Its selfish, but what I love about him is that just about any touch leads to disgusting damage, 36-41 without a bar, off almost anything, anywhere, or less but cycle in to a vortex.. I just like that about him. I feel like that's his 'thing'. I love his design and set up right now, Id just like to see a couple minor MoS changes to push him up the ladder some.

 

[colby4898]

What do you think about mystic getting a standard projectile?

 

[BoromiRofGeo]

thank you everyone for you responses, this is exactly the brainstorming i was hoping for! i will update OP according to general consensus!

make b124 cancelable - BigD mentioned this. I can't see its relevance.
make b321 cancelable - Im sensing a theme here...

what is there to see, one of the top ermac players since 2011 suggested something which didnt came to my mind, and i agreed it would benefit character immensely.

make f2d2 -3 on block (from -14) ffs

No, because you already have a safe mix up with f212. You can easily hit confirm f21 into d2. Plus its a very good punishing string as well.

did anyone in entirety of the game seen anyone ever use f2d2? that move is useless, it should be a substitute for f21d2 which has gap. but that is not happening because f2d2 is -14. nothing to gain by using that.

make b34 -3 on block (from -10) - I dreamed a dream of time gone byyyy.....
make f43 -6 on block (from -11) - Honestly, this is just insanity...

F43 and b34 should be around -8 or -7. Maybe even -9.

Irrelevant. 222 is a punisher string.

i have to disagree here. many players myself including use 222 for mix ups. it is very important ermac tool. 1) 2nd hit needs to hit mid or it becomes full combo punishables. 2) player should have the choice to do 222 soul ball or teleport and be full combo punishable. or do pure 222 and be safe. why we are being punished for either of these two options. if i die im going yolo anyways. And this is wrong. Same goes for b3 and f4. Their respectful full strings should either be safe, or be unsafe if canceled into specials. The choice should be on a player. Both choices should not be full combo punishable.

I thought it did? Unless you mean on block.

yes, b2 on block cancels into another specials but does not cancel into levitate.

Soul burst, should be around -8f on block. It has a bit of a push back, plus from certain normals (f3 is an example as is d3, d4 and d1 as well) it creates even more pushback.

i agree. -8 with pushback is decent.

Soul Blast should be around +2 on block. Remember Ermac has godlike down pokes.

i agree. +2 with great pushback is acceptable.

make up soul burst -3 on block (from -9)

No reason to do that, up soul burst is an AA.

let me explain, up soul burst can be used in mixups, it can hit opponent, be safe but let him go, whereas pure straight soul burst on hit can give plus frames like it does now but be more unsafe. anyway this is exactly what many ermac players do these days anyways. f4into up soul burst, to be safe. instead of full combo f4 tp etc.

Wait, what? You want a safe teleport, which is also a combo starter?

im spending a meter to be -3. am not even asking armor. tremor can jail with his projectiles on block without meter, same with dvorah. im simply asking the ability to cancel some strings by spending one meter and be a little bit safe afterwards. Am i greedy person for asking this? Maybe. Am i crazy? hell no im not.

fix unable to chain combos after soul trap

Explain plz.

when comboing try ending with soul trap (ex version), soul trap passes much faster then regular version, it is very inconsistent. what is the reasoning for that? spend 1 meter for what exactly, it doesnt even give enough lock frames to continue combo.

What do you think about mystic getting a standard projectile?

i completely forgot about this. this is something that many of ermac players suggested. and i agree. mystic is a zoner that needs his zoning tools.

 

[SaSSolino]

I think MoS is fine, Mystic is the one that needs buffs. Not sure about Spectral.

let's be honest tho, not even Jason these these many buffs...

 

[xxFalcon Loverxx]

Get on beyond toxin's level breh.....

 

[DDutchguy]

general:
give mystic and spektral level 1 projectile. So you mean the level 1 Soul Ball? This feels more like a luxury than something Ermac needs. This would have to be a high instead of a mid *if* this gets added at all.

fix b12 not hitting mid
fix 222 not hitting mid (especially on females) Agreed on both because it's not supposed to whiff.

fix b2 not canceling into hover on block Does it only cancel on block in Spectral? You don't get much off of hover in not-Spectral so this isn't needed.
make b124 cancelable It's something, only Spectral would truly benefit though.
make b32 cancelable Disagree, would make for very nasty Spectral shenanigans and relatively high, safe damage with EX-burst (yeah yeah Cassie gets that with EX flip but we're not talking about that right now).
make b2 3+4 1 2 come out even on block Sure? Don't see how in the world the animation would allow it, but I doubt this would give Ermac something useful.
make b2 either true unblockable or make it +10 (?) (from +2) on block CHARGED B2 a true unblockable maybe. Pls no +10, would give Ermac very easy frame traps that he doesn't need. Also, canceling from B2 in Spectral could be really insane.
make soul burst -8 on block (from -14) with small pushback Disagree, would give Ermac the ability to get a somewhat-safe 50/50 at all times on top of his unsafe ones.
make soul blast +2 on block (from -5) with big pushback
make 11 +3 on block (from +2) Uhhhh...
make b34 -6 on block (from -10) So combine this with B32 being cancelable and making Soul Burst safe-ish, Ermac now gets nigh-safe double 50/50s. Please don't. Leaving out B32 and Burst, I don't necessarily disagree. Being -6 would end Ermac's turn (unless he does EX burst).
make f43 -7 on block (from -11) with small pushback A lot of your changes turn Ermac from unsafe 50/50 character to an unsafe 50/50 character with safe 50/50s if he feels like it.
make f2d2 -3 on block (from -14) Still pointless over F12D2 since that one is 0.
make 22 -5 on block (from -7) 22 doesn't have much use over 222, unnecessary.
make 222 -6 on block (from -9) Read above.
make d3 -3 on block (from -6) Fuck no, online Ermac is bad enough as it is.
make up soul burst -3 on block (from -9) Safe corner 50/50s?
make air soul burst +5 on block (from -5) No, too good for Spectral.
make force lift -40 on block (from -51) Not needed.
make tele-lift -25 on block (from -51) spending a bar should either wield 1) be safe 2) faster startup Unnecessary.
make force port -5 on block (from -17) with small pushback Fooking safe 50/50s.

decrease startup on air teleport to 19 (from 23)
decrease startup on air force port to 14 (from 25)
decrease startup on teleport to 20 (from 25)
decrease startup on force port to 15 (from 25)
decrease startup on b2 to 25 (from 32)
decrease startup on lift to 11 (from 13) Most of these don't seem necessary. Maybe the B2 to give it some use but the others seem like a luxury.

decrease recovery on force lift to -50 (from -66)
decrease recovery on tele-lift to -25 (from -66) spending a bar should either wield 1) be safe 2) faster startup
decrease recovery on 2 to 15 (from 18)
decrease recovery on 22 to 18 (from 22)
decrease recovery on 222 to 30 (from 33)
increase recovery on d3 to 16 (from 12) Only noteworthy change is d3, which is something I guess. Wouldn't matter much if it became -3 as you noted in an earlier suggested buff.

increase hitbox on air soul burst Spectral hype. I do agree with this one, it whiffs really often.

Master of Souls
fix unable to chain combos after soul trap
make soul ball -20 (from -23)
make soul trap -10 (from -23) Somewhat-safe 50/50s galore.
increase scaling on soul trap Would help with the safe 50/50 problem, but would not make it less of a problem.

decrease startup on Disappear to 13 (from 17)
decrease startup on Vanish to 10 (from 17) I agree, though in practice it may make for nasty NJP shenanigans.

decrease recovery on Disappear to 15 (from 22)
decrease recovery on Vanish to 10 (from 22) I mean you're spending a bar to do Vanish so sure I guess. Still wouldn't make it worth the bar.

Mystic
make tele-choke -15 (from -24) Would actually give Mystic something to work with.
make levitate -5 (from -24) This is EX BF2? Sure I guess? Don't see how it would still make it worth the bar.

make tele-hang -40 (from -51)
make tele-hold -25 (from -51) Would still keep them at 'holy crap this is unsafe' levels. Luxury.


So the general trend seems to be strengthening Ermac's 50/50 game, in some cases to extreme levels. I disagree with most of these buffs, especially the ones that make Ermac the MKX god of all things 50/50 which sounds like the worst thing ever.

 

[xxFalcon Loverxx]

Is this a joke?

Can't see why it isn't a joke.

 

[xxFalcon Loverxx]

• We all know kp2 will bring additional fixes and patches. So let us not linger now, and do some brainstorming on what should be done to fix this bottom 5 pit.

so discuss and speculate. REALISTICALLY.
general:
give mystic and spektral level 1 projectile.
fix b12 not hitting mid
fix 222 not hitting mid (especially on females)
fix b2 not canceling into hover on block
make b124 cancelable
make b32 cancelable
make b2 3+4 1 2 come out even on block
make b2 either unblockable or make it +10 (?) (from +2) on block
make soul burst -8 on block (from -14) with small pushback
make soul blast +2 on block (from -5) with big pushback
make 11 +3 on block (from +2)
make b34 -6 on block (from -10)
make f43 -7 on block (from -11) with small pushback
make f2d2 -3 on block (from -14)
make 22 -5 on block (from -7)
make 222 -6 on block (from -9)
make d3 -3 on block (from -6)
make up soul burst -3 on block (from -9)
make air soul burst +5 on block (from -5)
make force lift -40 on block (from -51)
make tele-lift -25 on block (from -51) spending a bar should either wield 1) be safe 2) faster startup
make force port -5 on block (from -17) with small pushback
decrease startup on air teleport to 19 (from 23)
decrease startup on air force port to 14 (from 25)
decrease startup on teleport to 20 (from 25)
decrease startup on force port to 15 (from 25)
decrease startup on b2 to 25 (from 32)
decrease startup on lift to 11 (from 13)
decrease recovery on force lift to -50 (from -66)
decrease recovery on tele-lift to -25 (from -66) spending a bar should either wield 1) be safe 2) faster startup
decrease recovery on 2 to 15 (from 18)
decrease recovery on 22 to 18 (from 22)
decrease recovery on 222 to 30 (from 33)
increase recovery on d3 to 16 (from 12)
increase hitbox on air soul burst

Master of Souls
fix unable to chain combos after soul trap
make soul ball -20 (from -23)
make soul trap -10 (from -23)
increase scaling on soul trap
decrease startup on Disappear to 13 (from 17)
decrease startup on Vanish to 10 (from 17)
decrease recovery on Disappear to 15 (from 22)
decrease recovery on Vanish to 10 (from 22)

Mystic
make tele-choke -15 (from -24)
make levitate -5 (from -24)
make tele-hang -40 (from -51)
make tele-hold -25 (from -51)

WAT?
Make b2 unblockable........WTF

 

[colby4898]

I feel like the buffs listed changes Ermac from a high risk high reward character too much.
You want no risk high reward by the sounds of it.
Right now he is punishable but can 40% damage from a mix up and he has a vortex.
The changes will make him completely safe in almost every situation, with high damage and a vortex as well as being considerably plus making him a good pressure character!
TOO MUCH!

 

[colby4898]

When you say 'level one projectile' what do you mean by that? Like MoS projectile? Cos they definitely shouldn't get that.

Mystic needs a standard projectile, something along the lines of Sonyas energy wave or quan chis skull.

Having an air projectile would be cool too. Not sure whether it would be better as a straight air projectile or a down one like quans air skull. I favour a down shooting one myself.

 

[colby4898]

Also do you thing telehang should be mad a lot safer? Like maybe -9 or something?