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Cassie Cage MU Discussion (MK11)

I will have to test it again but I’m pretty sure you can 111 punish the gap in ex nitro kick. The thing is 111 doesn’t punish regular nitro kick cause of pushback. If you have the read might as well punish them hard.
Ah you were faster sry guys for repeating. But at least it is a confirm. Yes you can!
 

JDE

You will learn Respect!
How I feel so far:
Jade 5-5
Sub-Zero 5-5
Scorpion 5-5
Liu Kang 5-5
Kitana 6-4
Frost 6-4
Jacqui 5-5
Jax 5-5
Kollector 6-4
Skarlet 5-5

These are what I have right now atm. I haven’t fought a lot of others yet to really have an in depth opinion on them.

I think Yaas Queen is good utility against certain ones though. I just believe that Digital Soldier is her go to variation & gives her more of an all around tool set

Nb4, these aren’t just based on online play. These are both on & offline. Like Scorpion, Subzero, Jade & Skarlet are harder in delay & ping than offline. I know teleport changes how you think in terms of neutral, but it doesn’t stop her wholeheartedly. She low profiles spear with low shot & his spear works as a fireball now in some ways. The teleport says she can still zone, can even hit him out of teleport before it comes out, but she can't get careless while doing it & have to bait it before he makes the read on her. I "do" believe he's a good counter pick against her though if you have an offensive character who struggles to get in against her wall. I just don't think it's a total blow up. She even can jump it on reaction & whiff punish.

Same for Sub’s mix, ex ice ball, slide, & his d1 (for strings). She low profiles the normal ice ball with low shot. The D1 says he can jab punish B24 & disrespect F21+3, but she still keeps him in check in terms of neutral in both variations for the majority of the time in space. She also out footsies him; especially in Dead of Winter. He still has to play the guessing game too because B24 even though he can jab punish since it's -7, she still has B243 (although a high) -3 on block & the amplified upglow kick which is 0 on block by itself but -3 with certain strings. Still, it sets her up to play neutral or plan her next attack. F2 1+3 has some decent pushback from the string on block so he still has to guess whether or not to challenge with d1 or take the safe route which is to block or wait. He can get chippy with D1 against this string when in the corner, but not anywhere midscreen. This very same rule applies to Geras & Erron Black too because they also have 6 frame D1s. Even in thin ice without the Ex Ice ball, her low shot keeps him in check. Even against his slide. He wins the trades with both versions of ice balls, just the ex version absorbs the projectiles if he makes the read. The other options in thin ice aren't as fast as her best projectiles, but they give him more of a full screen presence in neutral. Better chip in thin ice also. Still, he wants to be closer against her. The Ex Ice ball you have to force him to use meter. Once you do that, he's forced to walk you down while you have full control of screen with projectiles & your buttons. Only thing he would be left with are ice ball, b3, b1, & cold shoulder. Fuzzy guarding is key against him too while he's mixing. I still believe he does do well against her, but I don't think he 6-4s her. She does well against him too. That evens out.

For Jade, her being able to shield herself changes the complexion between the 2, but Cassie still does well getting to mid range. B3 and shoulder charge are key with her while being able to walk forward & B2. B3, B2, & shoulder charge all get her close whenever Jade throws an air projectile of some sort. She doesn't mind trading with Jade although most people prefer not to take any damage. The reality of it is though is that against any kind of zoning character, you have to expect some trades. The main reason why she has to move forward against her and fight her closer is because again, Jade's cloaking. So she has to be the one moving in & staying on top of her with her offense. Once she's in mid range, she can play her game & force Jade to overextend herself. Upglow kick stops her if she tries jumping with an areal projectile. She doesn't have issues punishing Jade either. In fact, she blows up her cloaking potion before she can activate it.

Right now the only character I've had issues with is Erron Black. I'm just trying to hold off more because I want to fully understand him & haven't really played him enough outside of the few I've run into before I up & say what I feel happens. I don't want to downplay or give reasons for people to downplay or even get a character unnecessarily nerfed like some forums are suggesting; Cassie included by people who really don't understand the game's system or how she plays. She doesn’t really need anything changed from F4 & the amped version of upglow kick should do what it’s doing. Shouldn’t be punished if she’s spending resources for safety. That's also why I haven't listed some of the others yet; need more experience. These are the characters that I have the most exp with.
Update:
Cassie's favor (6-4)
Kollector
Kotal Kahn
Shao Kahn
Frost
Kitana
Johnny Cage

Even
Sub-Zero
Cetrion
Liu Kang
Jax
Kabal
Kung Lao
Jacqui
Sonya
Skarlet
Jade
Scorpion

Disadvantage (4-6) / Slight (4.5-5.5)
Erron Black



Tbh, I feel like a lot of you are underrating & underselling Cassie's footsie buttons. She's not all about zoning. That's why I feel like she still does fine against Scorpion & Jade. YQ is good against them both. They're more dumb online than anything.
 
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JDE

You will learn Respect!
Now that I think about it, I don't think match up numbers really matter because it's 2/3 for standard settings at the end of the day. At least this is how I look at it. Most of the numbers I give out are either an estimate of how each character controls the match with something that they excel at or just generally a long set of 1st to 10s even 15s.

Whether or not characters win/lose match ups depends on what you value, your style of play, & how you view each character match too imo.

Like the Kitana match up I believe favors Cassie (I can play Kitana too) because Cassie controls the entire screen in Digital Solider. Even in the air, she's generally better. In a nutshell, the match up isn't that good for Kitana because Cassie does what she wants to do, but she's even better at doing so: Generally faster buttons that moves forward for footsies, good projectiles that come out quicker, better krushing blows, etc.

I think in terms of staggers, Kitana is good, but her best buttons are B14 and B231. Both of which are generally slower than any of Cassie's best buttons like F2, B2, & F4. So she's more than likely going to be fighting for positioning more to avoid her buttons whereas Cassie doesn't have to worry about any of her buttons being less than 15 frames. Which makes it easier to whiff punish Kitana. So essentially, Kitana has to rely more on her reads.

Yaas Queen I don't believe is too much different except Kitana has less to worry about because she doesn't have access to multiple projectiles. Still, everything else in terms of buttons are in tact.
 
I need some help with the Kung Lao match up. I feel like I'm letting them get away with a ton of nonsense that shouldn't work. Other characters I usually at least figure out what the other player is doing and adapt but not with Kung Lao
 
I need some help with the Kung Lao match up. I feel like I'm letting them get away with a ton of nonsense that shouldn't work. Other characters I usually at least figure out what the other player is doing and adapt but not with Kung Lao
Please write down the nonsense examples and let's evaluate it.

Yesterday I played a good KL both with Cassie and Scorpion and after his F4 which is -3 on block he always did 7F D3 and I could rarely beat him with my 9F F4.
It was pretty annoying as after D3 he could throw-F4 again and felt unfair instead of giving him full combo punish.

Maybe it was just online not real low profile as sometimes I could hit him but it was bullhit exploit lol.
Other than that it was fair.
 
Please write down the nonsense examples and let's evaluate it.

Yesterday I played a good KL both with Cassie and Scorpion and after his F4 which is -3 on block he always did 7F D3 and I could rarely beat him with my 9F F4.
It was pretty annoying as after D3 he could throw-F4 again and felt unfair instead of giving him full combo punish.

Maybe it was just online not real low profile as sometimes I could hit him but it was bullhit exploit lol.
Other than that it was fair.
For instance, because of the dive kick it makes me not punish bad jump ins because a dive kick will probably beat my anti air. This gives him a lot more control over the match then most other matchups, at least for me.
I also have more trouble dealing with his teleport then any others character. Even when I know it's coming nothing I still take damage. I usually try to punish with uppercut because that worked the best for me so far, but no we're near consistent.
It's not that I think the fight is unfair, it's just that I don't feel I can approach it the same as most other characters. Does anyone know a high level match I can watch between a Cassie and Kung Lao? Maybe seeing someone else might help me.
 
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McChillin

Premium
Premium Supporter
For instance, because of the dive kick it makes me not punish bad jump ins because a dive kick will probably beat my anti air. This gives him a lot more control over the match then most other matchups, at least for me.
I also have more trouble dealing with his teleport then any others character. Even when I know it's coming nothing I still take damage. I usually try to punish with uppercut because that worked the best for me so far, but no we're near consistent.
Does anyone know a high level match I watch between a Cassie and Kung Lao? Maybe seeing someone else might help me.

 

Vslayer

I'm a gril
Moderator
Premium Supporter
For instance, because of the dive kick it makes me not punish bad jump ins because a dive kick will probably beat my anti air. This gives him a lot more control over the match then most other matchups, at least for me.
I also have more trouble dealing with his teleport then any others character. Even when I know it's coming nothing I still take damage. I usually try to punish with uppercut because that worked the best for me so far, but no we're near consistent.
It's not that I think the fight is unfair, it's just that I don't feel I can approach it the same as most other characters. Does anyone know a high level match I can watch between a Cassie and Kung Lao? Maybe seeing someone else might help me.
B3 usually works if they jump a lot, but I'm sure the air kick beats it if it's lower to the ground. Use air guns or straight gunshots which will beat their JD4. Or you can also just back up and punish it if you're in range, or if you block it, it's also punishable. You can interrupt their quick punching string before they start punching, as they throw the hat with a D1.

Use D4 to push them away, up close he doesn't have good buttons apart from F1 and F4 so just look out for those.
 
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For instance, because of the dive kick it makes me not punish bad jump ins because a dive kick will probably beat my anti air. This gives him a lot more control over the match then most other matchups, at least for me.
I also have more trouble dealing with his teleport then any others character. Even when I know it's coming nothing I still take damage. I usually try to punish with uppercut because that worked the best for me so far, but no we're near consistent.
It's not that I think the fight is unfair, it's just that I don't feel I can approach it the same as most other characters. Does anyone know a high level match I can watch between a Cassie and Kung Lao? Maybe seeing someone else might help me.
@Vslayer pretty much summarized my intended a answer:
B3 good anti air but yes Dive Kick can win: Risk reward is in Cassie's favor as dive kick full combo punish/anti air full combo punish vs a 16% dive kick or a bad jump in.
With Scorpion it was even more annoying as I anti air teleported but his dive kick moved out of teleport range lol. So blocking is a good way to punish and conditon him.

Teleport is easy to punish (unless he does not punish your zoning with it) with D1. In my long set the KL player only did it once and when he saw I punished for full combo he never used again (rather dive kick against zoning).
Go to practice room for this D1 into B24/F41 punish conversion. It is not brainded - need to practice the execution.
 

JDE

You will learn Respect!
Idk about that. Perhaps I'm playing the MU wrong but I feel Cassie beats Jax.
Difference of opinion. I only feel like it's this way because Jax is good at striking fear into people. It's probably me more than anything though, but I think Jax is hella downplayed for the likes of Jacqui. I'll put a ?? for now. I'd like to run into someone like Cupcakez or Predator or Fab if possible to get more out of it. He's got a good wave dash too.
 

STB Sgt Reed

Online Warrior
Premium Supporter
Difference of opinion. I only feel like it's this way because Jax is good at striking fear into people. It's probably me more than anything though, but I think Jax is hella downplayed for the likes of Jacqui. I'll put a ?? for now. I'd like to run into someone like Cupcakez or Predator or Fab if possible to get more out of it. He's got a good wave dash too.
I think it's likely 4-6 for jax. So slightly in Cassie's favor.

Jax's pressure, while it can be very good, it also requires great reads (as to when to stagger, when to commit, and when to give up your turn) AND you only get about 15-18% out of a correct read unless you have heated arms kb on deck.

He can't compete in the zoning battle because he has to heat his arms and even then it requires a double heat missile blast to even trade with low guns which reduces his heat by 2 stacks. Ground pound is too slow to trade and thumper, can trade but requires a bit of a life lead because of it's slow start up.

He can't jump at her due to air guns, amp low guns, and her amazing b3 and S1.

He can approach on the ground but has to deal with the zoning all the way in and when he gets there her normal range is just as good, if not slightly better, than his. Can't really use his best closing tool (dash punch) because low guns is faster and if it's blocked, at -16 that's full combo punish. AND her 9 frame mid is better than his as hers is 0 on block and his is -11, -4, and -7 (at each stage of the stagger/string).

I think where he wins is if he gets her to the corner. She doesn't have the greatest options there and he gets his restand and great oki.


But like I said, I very well could be playing it wrong or there's some jax tech I don't know about. Both are very possible as I'm pretty garbage. Currently, I don't see it being too even.
 
I think it's likely 4-6 for jax. So slightly in Cassie's favor.

Jax's pressure, while it can be very good, it also requires great reads (as to when to stagger, when to commit, and when to give up your turn) AND you only get about 15-18% out of a correct read unless you have heated arms kb on deck.

He can't compete in the zoning battle because he has to heat his arms and even then it requires a double heat missile blast to even trade with low guns which reduces his heat by 2 stacks. Ground pound is too slow to trade and thumper, can trade but requires a bit of a life lead because of it's slow start up.

He can't jump at her due to air guns, amp low guns, and her amazing b3 and S1.

He can approach on the ground but has to deal with the zoning all the way in and when he gets there her normal range is just as good, if not slightly better, than his. Can't really use his best closing tool (dash punch) because low guns is faster and if it's blocked, at -16 that's full combo punish. AND her 9 frame mid is better than his as hers is 0 on block and his is -11, -4, and -7 (at each stage of the stagger/string).

I think where he wins is if he gets her to the corner. She doesn't have the greatest options there and he gets his restand and great oki.


But like I said, I very well could be playing it wrong or there's some jax tech I don't know about. Both are very possible as I'm pretty garbage. Currently, I don't see it being too even.
I am always blown by Jax's stagger I need a good partner.
Can anyone teach by mopping me close to EU? Wifi Jax is always +7 instead of -7 lol.

Probably just my lack of labbing the staggers/fb timing... :)
 

STB Sgt Reed

Online Warrior
Premium Supporter
I am always blown by Jax's stagger I need a good partner.
Can anyone teach by mopping me close to EU? Wifi Jax is always +7 instead of -7 lol.

Probably just my lack of labbing the staggers/fb timing... :)
I, unfortunately, don't know any EU jax players. =/
 
B3 usually works if they jump a lot, but I'm sure the air kick beats it if it's lower to the ground. Use air guns or straight gunshots which will beat their JD4. Or you can also just back up and punish it if you're in range, or if you block it, it's also punishable. You can interrupt their quick punching string before they start punching, as they throw the hat with a D1.

Use D4 to push them away, up close he doesn't have good buttons apart from F1 and F4 so just look out for those.
@Vslayer pretty much summarized my intended a answer:
B3 good anti air but yes Dive Kick can win: Risk reward is in Cassie's favor as dive kick full combo punish/anti air full combo punish vs a 16% dive kick or a bad jump in.
With Scorpion it was even more annoying as I anti air teleported but his dive kick moved out of teleport range lol. So blocking is a good way to punish and conditon him.

Teleport is easy to punish (unless he does not punish your zoning with it) with D1. In my long set the KL player only did it once and when he saw I punished for full combo he never used again (rather dive kick against zoning).
Go to practice room for this D1 into B24/F41 punish conversion. It is not brainded - need to practice the execution.
Thanks for the great advice. I was able to practice a little in training mode but unfortunately not a single Kung Lao in KL last night
Hopefully I get to put it to use tonight.
 

BigMilk

Former Divine Power Abuser
I think it's likely 4-6 for jax. So slightly in Cassie's favor.

Jax's pressure, while it can be very good, it also requires great reads (as to when to stagger, when to commit, and when to give up your turn) AND you only get about 15-18% out of a correct read unless you have heated arms kb on deck.

He can't compete in the zoning battle because he has to heat his arms and even then it requires a double heat missile blast to even trade with low guns which reduces his heat by 2 stacks. Ground pound is too slow to trade and thumper, can trade but requires a bit of a life lead because of it's slow start up.

He can't jump at her due to air guns, amp low guns, and her amazing b3 and S1.

He can approach on the ground but has to deal with the zoning all the way in and when he gets there her normal range is just as good, if not slightly better, than his. Can't really use his best closing tool (dash punch) because low guns is faster and if it's blocked, at -16 that's full combo punish. AND her 9 frame mid is better than his as hers is 0 on block and his is -11, -4, and -7 (at each stage of the stagger/string).

I think where he wins is if he gets her to the corner. She doesn't have the greatest options there and he gets his restand and great oki.


But like I said, I very well could be playing it wrong or there's some jax tech I don't know about. Both are very possible as I'm pretty garbage. Currently, I don't see it being too even.
Just wanted to add that Jax’s large hitbox is a disadvantage specifically against Cassie. Amp guns hits him on crouch block and he is jailed so she feels extremely oppressive if she corners him.
 

sars

Noob
I am always blown by Jax's stagger I need a good partner.
Can anyone teach by mopping me close to EU? Wifi Jax is always +7 instead of -7 lol.

Probably just my lack of labbing the staggers/fb timing... :)
It’s a 50/50 chance they hit a D1 or I hit my F4 when Jax is - 7 online for some reason so I feel your pain.