Can we get a consensus on Character/Variation Lock rules?

[Gweedo888]

I feel that the winner should have to stay. the variations if they work the way we want are supposed to be another way to fight a bad match up. if the winner is allowed to change how is that fair to the loser who is making a change in the first place to better fight the character you are using. Like @Compbros said ultras are once maybe twice a match and you actually have to land it to be effctive not like these variations

 

[Johnny Based Cage]

Lolol and I remember a time when DoomBawkz said I had the dumbest posts on TYM.

 

[Zoidberg747]

I've accepted that people are just not willing to see the side of change without seeing how it'd work and people keep coming with this "Wait til the game is out" posting. Fine. We wait. Colt said don't make arbitrary rules without playing the game. How about we have no standard going into MKX when it comes to character lock and TRY BOTH AND DECIDE instead of simply just doing full character lock just because? How about that? Compromise. TRY both methods. We've got locals and majors that are gonna be trying either or both, let's weigh the results and make a decision post-EVO based on the months of data we'll have at that point or even for EVO if they want community input. Let's not rest on our laurels when there's a potentially better system for character selection out there because of whatever reason. Let's see how both play out in the coming months, let's not play one way for months and then just say "fuck it, we've played this way this long, let's just stick with it". We've got 2 years minimum of MKX, let's not be complacent with this decision and just go with the first thing we try or what's been "standard" even though this isn't a standard type of game.

Do not flippantly dismiss the other side as stupid, ignorant, or stuck in their ways. Do not act like we all don't want what's best for the game and community. Let's. Try. Both. Please don't just fucking sit on your hands with this one NRS community. If Variation lock appears to be better for the game then let's change it to that, don't just accept what it's been. The same goes for if variation unlock is better. This is our game, this is our community, and we need to start fucking making changes if changes are best for the game and community instead of just letting shit rock.

That's what I have been saying all along my friend.

 

[Duck Nation]

Did you actually read my post in context, or just cherry pick for effect? I said that most people are ignoring the ruleset in place for the closest MKX equivalents - MB/AH. If you've read through the posts in this thread, you would know that to be a true statement. Based on that evident truth, the argument over a potential ruleset for MKX is lacking. I told people that they should educate themselves on precedents before making up their minds.
I said that they are making wrong decisions because of their lack of knowledge and precedent.
Exactly what is unreasonable about this, DNation? Which part of my assessment do you disagree with?

People are still missing the actual point of everything I've posted: you don't know.

You. Don't. Know.

Comparisons to Melty and Arcana are nice. They are also absolute conjecture. The people who've done the sensible thing in this thread and stepped back to say "wait and see" have been under attack the whole time because people take it as an affront to their side, rather than seeing the third option that continues to be ignored. We have all watched the Kombat Kasts. None of us is lacking in that information. That information is also incredibly deficient, as Zoidberg and Juggs have also pointed out. I don't give a flying fuck about what standard gets decided ultimately, as long as it's a standard decided on based on the merits of this game and not other ones. Have you played MKX? No, you haven't. None of us have. When you compare it to other games and situations, you do so making massive leaps and assumptions that you might well be completely right about, but also that you might well be obscenely wrong about. When someone further says that the choice to make, in either direction, is not only obvious but should be adhered to in permanence, they are doubly wrong and everyone should ignore them.

The fight that's consumed most of this thread is fucking irrelevant. That's a point for everyone. I don't care which side of the debate you're on because your debate does not matter. The only thing anyone should be focused on is finding an interim repeat fucking interim solution, until we have the game in our hands and can answer questions in an educated manner.

My only stock in this race all along has been for a consistent rule set. What good is it going to do the game at majors if half the community has been playing and training one rule set and the other half has been using a different one? If you want to damage MKX in its early days, having a rule set that needs to be changed later is not the way to do that. Having none at all? Yeah, that'd be a pretty good way to fuck things up.

 

[Eddy Wang]

This thread is fun please don't close, i like coming back here and find a bulk of 5 pages to read of players saying we should go Full lock and other portion saying we shouldn't.

I'm still going to whatever TYM goes.

 

[Swindle]

People are still missing the actual point of everything I've posted: you don't know.

You. Don't. Know.

Comparisons to Melty and Arcana are nice. They are also absolute conjecture. The people who've done the sensible thing in this thread and stepped back to say "wait and see" have been under attack the whole time because people take it as an affront to their side, rather than seeing the third option that continues to be ignored. We have all watched the Kombat Kasts. None of us is lacking in that information. That information is also incredibly deficient, as Zoidberg and Juggs have also pointed out. I don't give a flying fuck about what standard gets decided ultimately, as long as it's a standard decided on based on the merits of this game and not other ones. Have you played MKX? No, you haven't. None of us have. When you compare it to other games and situations, you do so making massive leaps and assumptions that you might well be completely right about, but also that you might well be obscenely wrong about. When someone further says that the choice to make, in either direction, is not only obvious but should be adhered to in permanence, they are doubly wrong and everyone should ignore them.

The fight that's consumed most of this thread is fucking irrelevant. That's a point for everyone. I don't care which side of the debate you're on because your debate does not matter. The only thing anyone should be focused on is finding an interim repeat fucking interim solution, until we have the game in our hands and can answer questions in an educated manner.

My only stock in this race all along has been for a consistent rule set. What good is it going to do the game at majors if half the community has been playing and training one rule set and the other half has been using a different one? If you want to damage MKX in its early days, having a rule set that needs to be changed later is not the way to do that. Having none at all? Yeah, that'd be a pretty good way to fuck things up.

300 words, and you only managed to contradict yourself AND never fully addressed my question.
You say we should have an interim ruleset. Then say having a ruleset that needs to be changed (i.e. interim) is NOT the way to go. THEN say having NO ruleset is a good way to fuck things up. That is some high-tier fence riding.
I'd ask you again why the rules for the Arcana Heart/Melty Blood system couldn't be a great interim solution until the game has had some time to percolate, but I really can't stomach another one of these drawn out, contradictory non-answers.
PS: I've played versions of MKX three separate times. I travel.
Don't presume to know what I have or haven't done, or my level of experience in matters.

 

[Swindle]

I lean towards character lock for winner but not variation. Winner picks first then loser if he changes character.

Maybe another 500 post thread on this will change my min

We're at almost 600 posts. Change your mind, yet?

 

[Duck Nation]

I swear to god, I don't even know how to come at that post. I've never seen such selective reading in my life. I read your original post, and I didn't cherry pick anything - cherry picking implies that there was some point to disprove, but your post was about shit wholly irrelevant to anything I've said here. I'm not going to get into the discussion of which rule set is better. I already said I don't care. I already said even arguing about is a waste of time because too much about this game is unanswerable. But again, people can't seem to appreciate that there aren't just those two utterly pointless sides to this discussion.

After mulling it over, is this the statement you're having trouble with?

If you want to damage MKX in its early days, having a rule set that needs to be changed later is not the way to do that.

I can understand how skimming that might leave you with the opposite impression, but read again. What that statement says is if you have a consistent rule set and everyone agrees to play it, that's a good thing. If you have to change it later, it's not a big deal, but if you go forth with no rules agreed on at all, it's going to be a problem. There is no contradiction here.

PS: I've played versions of MKX three separate times. I travel.

This doesn't make you look more informed. It just makes you look obnoxious.

 

[Swindle]

Well, if you aren't going to answer my questions, OR contribute anything to the discussion on the actual topic of the thread you are posting in, then answer me this:
Why would someone such as yourself, who says "I don't have an opinion, I don't give a fuck what gets decided, I don't know, no one knows (all your words)...etc." even come into this thread to post? Just for the attention? If a teacher asked a question in class, and you "didn't know/care/have an opinion/did not have enough information" about the topic, would you still raise your hand to answer? That's what you did here. It's strange behavior, truly. There are hundreds of thread topics that you might actually care about that you could be posting in, but you come here and start an argument when you don't even have a side? You're only contribution is "No one has played the game, so there is no point to the discussion?" If that's how you feel, then why are you discussing it with me? Obviously, I feel differently, or I wouldn't have posted in the thread titled " CAN WE GET A CONSENSUS ON CHARACTER/VARIATION LOCK RULES". Fucking TYM, seriously.
There's words for people like you, and I'll take "obnoxious" over any of them. In fact, ASSHOLE is in my profile tag. Just call me that, and don't address me again on this topic.

 

[Duck Nation]

The people who've done the sensible thing in this thread and stepped back to say "wait and see" have been under attack the whole time because people take it as an affront to their side, rather than seeing the third option that continues to be ignored.

Yeah, this thread is hopeless. Add me to the "just fucking lock it" list.

 

[Eji1700]

and then i look at the votes and be like WTF

can 51% of TYM explain to me why is char and var locked?

Well we've been trying for 17 some pages now.

Name some of these please.

The entire MvC series assist locks.

Capcom vs Snk(...i think thats the name, groove game) series and every SF Alpha with variation select to my knowledge.

Last I checked SFIV was still forcing Ultra's, but I 'd heard that may have changed.

In fact the only game I can think of off the top of my head that has variations and doesn't force lock is one of the anime fighters who's name escapes me at the moment, and even then I've heard it's mostly because a huge % of your options are non choices, and it doesn't matter nearly as much as it should.

1) You CANNOT COUNTERPICK THE LOSER. The loser is fully capable of counterpicking themselves, but thats all. If you have the brains to realize your character is countered by a variation, you should have the brains not to pick it.

This is everything that's wrong with variation pick. Takeda's already looking like a strong contender to have the ability to counter zoners and rushdown if allowed variation pick. We have 0 clue if that'll be the case on launch, but just taken as an example (which has been given multiple times) it's more than possible to conceive of a character who can have a variation that will never be played, but merely by existing, stops people from ever getting to play certain characters against them.

I have said multiple times that Variation and character lock to start, and change if needed, but the ONLY way I can honestly see variation not locked to start is if winner declares the switch before the loser chooses ANYTHING.

 

[Compbros]

The entire MvC series assist locks.

Capcom vs Snk(...i think thats the name, groove game) series and every SF Alpha with variation select to my knowledge.

Last I checked SFIV was still forcing Ultra's, but I 'd heard that may have changed.

In fact the only game I can think of off the top of my head that has variations and doesn't force lock is one of the anime fighters who's name escapes me at the moment, and even then I've heard it's mostly because a huge % of your options are non choices, and it doesn't matter nearly as much as it should.

MvC is invalid IMO, it's a team based game that allows other characters to assist you at your discretion. It's a different meta than a 1v1 fighter.

Grooves/Isms are valid though I think ISMS were really beneficial to a handful of characters so they went with full lock.

Ultra allows a change to Ultras if the loser changes character.

Melty Blood/Arcana Hearts do it and the Moons/Arcana's change normals, movement, specials, and supers. They allow a change to Moons/Arcana's on character switch from loser.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

If you wanna use the FG norm than variation unlock is the norm for games like this Christ.

I think you need to start posting the link to the rules EVERY SINGLE TIME this comes up

I went and found them after you posted and like them. No one else seems to care.

 

[Tom Brady]

You know what is even more likely? Tom Brady whining because he mastered Sub-Zero but people have 87 variations to counter pick him with.

Even more likley - He gets nerfed because people dont feel like dealing with him. Then years later say "hmm.. maybe he wasnt that bad after all, you were actually just out playing us. Our mistake...".



Back on topic..

You need to treat each variation like a different character. The winner should not be able to switch variation under any circumstances.

Dizzy said it best in one of our group PM's discussing this same topic..

Take for example the latest char shown on the KombatKast, Takeda, his Ronin variation looks almost nothing like his other variations. Really, if it was a non-variation game like SF or an older MK even, Ronin could have been Takeda's brother and had that moveset Instead. I dont think it makes sense to have the rules set mainly on the fact he has the same name.

 

[Evil Canadian]

As someone going to Toryuken I am happy they are going with variation lock, because anything else is dumb.

 

[TomlulsBrady]

Even more likley - He gets nerfed because people dont feel like dealing with him. Then years later say "hmm.. maybe he wasnt that bad after all, you were actually just out playing us. Our mistake...".



Back on topic..

You need to treat each variation like a different character. The winner should not be able to switch variation under any circumstances.

Dizzy said it best in one of our group PM's discussing this same topic..

What did Dizzy say specifically, sir?

Offtopic, what pad are you using for MKX?

 

[FinalBoss_FGC]

Even more likley - He gets nerfed because people dont feel like dealing with him. Then years later say "hmm.. maybe he wasnt that bad after all, you were actually just out playing us. Our mistake...".



Back on topic..

You need to treat each variation like a different character. The winner should not be able to switch variation under any circumstances.

I really do not understand why people can not comprehend this.

Kung Jin for example, if I used Bojutsu and you had trouble dealing with it and decided that zoning would be the best option...if I was able to change variation to counter the counter...even after a win...then it looks like I'm going to counter that with Ancestral.

Idk why people think that's a good idea.

 

[Juggs]

Even more likley - He gets nerfed because people dont feel like dealing with him. Then years later say "hmm.. maybe he wasnt that bad after all, you were actually just out playing us. Our mistake...".

So much this. Unfortunately this is what I fear the most with MKX, unnecessary nerfs and buffs.

You need to treat each variation like a different character. The winner should not be able to switch variation under any circumstances.

What do you know, another tournament veteran saying this. So we have tournament legends and the developers of the actual game saying treat variations as characters.

 

[Tom Brady]

What did Dizzy say specifically, sir?

Offtopic, what pad are you using for MKX?

PS4 pad

 

[TomlulsBrady]

PS4 pad

I thought you said you didn't like it, did you get used to it?

 

[Tom Brady]

You guys have to understand...

Counter picking is part of fighters, always has been. The loser is making their pick based on what they know MUST be on the screen. The loser already knows full well that they risk their counter pick not being able to win the last game vs the winners final pick. Either way, the winner already has a big advantage by winning the first game. Trying to avoid counter picking by allowing the winner to counter the losers counter gives the winner an even bigger advantage. You also still don't lesson the counter picking, you just changed it so that now both guys are sitting there looking to counter pick. The loser is guessing which variation the winner may switch to, and the winner is guessing which variation based on who they think the loser may use.

Variation lock, final answer!!

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

So we want to stay with status quo....

There are ... what 2 games out that have a setup similar to this. Variations of the same character.
They have rules in place for competitive games.

Yet we want to ignore something that has worked and do something else?

Personally... i just don't want to see a bunch of "go back to the character select screen because I know there is no way [playerhere] has had any experience dealing with [character/variation]"

Locking variation/character early one will also create a stigma on the good players. If someone dominates the scene early on with ONE variation then it won't be how good [player] is... it'll be how good [character] is.
If we can get PAST the above... then the longevity of the game will be immense.


I'll still be looking forward to ONE tournament where you have to sign up with a character and use only said character. You can use all variations, but you can't go from Scorpion to Sub Zero. To me... that would be awesome. High level play would happen faster.

 

[FinalBoss_FGC]

If there is no variation lock, I'm probably not competing.

Obviously every character will have bad matchups...so if somebody can counter my counter with another bad match-up then it's stupid.

 

[Compbros]

What do you know, another tournament veteran saying this. So we have tournament legends and the developers of the actual game saying treat variations as characters.

lol if it were up to me I would probably say loser gets to change their variation and/or character, winner only gets to change their variation. But if winner decides to change their variation they have to do it FIRST before the loser decides if they want to change their variation/character

Their opinion is no more or less valid than the next competitive player if they also haven't played the game. Why hold them in a higher regard if they also haven't tested either system because they did well in MK9/Injustice and MKX looks to be a different animal.

 

[pogse]

Variation lock. its like marvel with assists or SF with Ultra1/2.