Can we get a consensus on Character/Variation Lock rules?

[KRYS9984]

In my opinion, the rules should be simple and straight forward in regards to tournament / local play.

Match #1

- Both players (obviously) have free character / variation choice.

- The character / variation pick can be done openly or hidden (NRS should include the hidden cursor option for characters / variations).

- Stage select is double random; much like Injustice, stages could play a factor in match-ups due to interactables / corner escape options.

Match #2

- Winner is character / variation locked while the loser is free to change character, variation or both.

- Stage is selected at double random once again.

Match #3 - #4 and #5 (if necessary and if MKX is 3 / 5)

- Repeat rules of Match #2.

 

[Compbros]

In my opinion, the rules should be very simple and straight forward in regards to tournament / local play.

But we don't even have a simple and straight forward character selection.

 

[Doombawkz]

In my opinion, the rules should be very simple and straight forward in regards to tournament / local play.

Assuming the alternative is not also simple and straightforward? Neither side seems hard to me.

 

[RoboCop]

In my opinion, the rules should be very simple and straight forward in regards to tournament / local play.

Great, but that doesn't get us any closer to a resolution. Everyone and their mom is sharing their opinions on whether variations should be locked, but no one is saying why...

If you believe they should be locked, that's fantastic, but please share why you believe that. There are dozens of solid arguments for unlocks, but only around 3 (heavily refuted) arguments for pro-lock.

 

[Vandy]

Good luck to Northwest Majors, Socal Regionals, Texas Showdown, Toryuken, and Combo Breaker.

Sure glad I don't have to go first!

 

[insignis]

Pro-lockers always use bullshit cards like "winner has an upper-hand"

How winning gives an upper-hand? It would be so if winner got a +25% damage buff or anything. His winning and score number doesn't affect next match.
And even if it is: Grand finals in Double Elimination. Why don't you punish winner? He has an advantage in an entire SET. He has large moral advantage etc.
Also all your talking about moral, momentum etc. is irrelevant. Loser have an opportunity to wait, relax and think everything through.

And is it me or pro-lockers simply want to see counterpicking fest? It's so fun!

 

[KRYS9984]

The winner should be character / variation locked because that seems like a logical option.

They won and must now face a rematch, a new variation, character or both which can be a counter-pick.

If they lose, they have the option to do the same variation / character swap as their opponent (previously did) or opt not to do so and hit rematch.

I'm pro lock is because the victor should not be given options / possible advantages to better their chances of taking the entire set.

The following is taken from SRK's Evo Tournament rules.

• The Match is over when either player wins the required number of games (Two out of three games for most tournaments)
• Once a player has won the required number of games, the winner of the Match should report the result to the Judge.
• If there are still Games to be played, the player who lost the Game has the option of switching sides (1p vs 2p) for the next Game.
• The player who won the game does not have the option of switching sides. He must stay on the same side if the loser does not want to switch.
• The player who won the last Game is required to keep the same characters, game modes, and order of characters for the next Game.
• The player who lost the last Game is allowed to choose whatever characters, game modes, or character order he desires.

These are general tournament rules but Street Fighter (for example) allows the winner to select Ultras if there if a character change on the losers side. This is a rule for that particular game and MKX will obviously have it's own set of specific rules but regarding this thread / conversation, I feel the winner should be locked.

 

[Mind Flex]

NRS gave us variations specifically with competitive play in mind. If the community is going to treat each variation as it's own character (which I completely understand the argument for) then NRS shouldn't have bothered with variations at all. Might as well have made a different skin and name to go along with each variation.

If we stick to the status quo (Character and variation lock) then we will have squandered a wonderful opportunity to see fighting game competition grow as a whole.

 

[Doombawkz]

The winner should be character / variation locked because that seems like the most logical option.

Much like Marvel / Street Fighter, we will be playing a game with options / variations so the standard rules (for these types of games) should apply.

Specifically speaking, Marvel doesn't have variation select and SF holds the rule that character changes allow for the change of your ultra...
Sooo... No, its not the most logical option.

Also..

I'm pro character / variation lock is because the victor should not be given options / possible advantages to better their chances of taking the entire set.

What options are you giving someone who is still locked into the same character and has to pick variation first? What advantage does he get?
As I've said a few times before...

UNLESS YOU ARE COUNTERPICKING YOURSELF, THERE IS NO ADVANTAGE GIVEN TO THE WINNER.

 

[Shark Tank]

Don't lock my varation bro

 

[Ecodus]

Good luck to Northwest Majors, Socal Regionals, Texas Showdown, Toryuken, and Combo Breaker.

Sure glad I don't have to go first!

I don't know how they will all run, but Neo said Toryuken will be winner is character and variation locked.

Are you waiting to see how it goes? I'm interested in seeing what the T.O.s think?

 

[Ecodus]

What options are you giving someone who is still locked into the same character and has to pick variation first? What advantage does he get?
As I've said a few times before...

UNLESS YOU ARE COUNTERPICKING YOURSELF, THERE IS NO ADVANTAGE GIVEN TO THE WINNER.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, just trying to discuss. But if the losing player changes character than the winner can change variation based on the new character chosen, regardless or the variation the losing player chooses. Without fully knowing, it's one of my concerns for not locking variations to the winner.

 

[Eji1700]

I spend a round getting trashed by mystic ermac. I decide I can run it back as I think I understand what I did wrong and choose the same or even counter pick. Ermac goes to f light mode and everything I've learned and conditioned for is now pointless

Almost every other game with variants locks winner completely. Mk has no reason to start different. If the balance holds once it is in our hands then great, we can revisit it, but people claiming pro lock has no solid arguments are just in denial. The above is one of many issues already argued to death, and ignoring them doesn't change anything

 

[Shark Tank]

I'm not trying to be argumentative, just trying to discuss. But if the losing player changes character than the winner can change variation based on the new character chosen, regardless or the variation the losing player chooses. Without fully knowing, it's one of my concerns for not locking variations to the winner.

It would be the winner being able to change variation when the loser picks a completely new character, but he must choose before loser picks his variation.

I spend a round getting trashed by mystic ermac. I decide I can run it back as I think I understand what I did wrong and choose the same or even counter pick. Ermac goes to f light mode and everything I've learned and conditioned for is now pointless

Well only if you were to pick a new character, if you didn't but just switched variation he'd have to stay mystic.
but if you CP'ed him and you were to beat his Mystic and then he CP's you with spectral your conditioning is dead anyway and now you're out of the tournament.

 

[Doombawkz]

I'm not trying to be argumentative, just trying to discuss. But if the losing player changes character than the winner can change variation based on the new character chosen, regardless or the variation the losing player chooses. Without fully knowing, it's one of my concerns for not locking variations to the winner.

Winner picks first, so unless the loser picked a character who gets hard countered by the winner's character or variation options in the first place, it doesn't matter what the winner chooses he won't have an advantage.
The only advantage he gains is the one given to him by his opponents

I spend a round getting trashed by mystic ermac. I decide I can run it back as I think I understand what I did wrong and choose the same or even counter pick. Ermac goes to f light mode and everything I've learned and conditioned for is now pointless
Almost every other game with variants locks winner completely. Mk has no reason to start different. If the balance holds once it is in our hands then great, we can revisit it, but people claiming pro lock has no solid arguments are just in denial. The above is one of many issues already argued to death, and ignoring them doesn't change anything

If you don't change character, then Ermac is still mystic.
If you do and he goes flight, unless you hard countered yourself by picking into his variation's benefit, he shouldn't have an advantage.
If him going flight breaks your psyche, then you haven't prepared for ermac, you prepared for one variation of ermac. That's not enough, and falls on the player, not the game.

 

[Compbros]

Almost every other game with variants locks winner completely.

Name some of these please.

 

[stamatis]

once you won the game let the other choose the pain!!!!!!!!

 

[SaltShaker]

Team Unlock with your in depth detailed explanations, future tournament examples, and general clarifications are helping my workday go by against Team "We lock variations just because. Winners can't counter the loser" arguments.

 

[Shark Tank]

Team Unlock with your in depth detailed explanations, future tournament examples, and general clarifications are helping my workday go by against Team "We lock variations just because. Winners can't counter the loser" arguments.

We should start an unlock variation council

 

[Mind Flex]

I spend a round getting trashed by mystic ermac. I decide I can run it back as I think I understand what I did wrong and choose the same or even counter pick. Ermac goes to f light mode and everything I've learned and conditioned for is now pointless

Almost every other game with variants locks winner completely. Mk has no reason to start different. If the balance holds once it is in our hands then great, we can revisit it, but people claiming pro lock has no solid arguments are just in denial. The above is one of many issues already argued to death, and ignoring them doesn't change anything

This makes the argument for winner staying variation locked if the loser doesn't change anything. (Or maybe even changes their own variation only)

"or even counter pick." This part is what gets me. I get that some people like counter picking. The problem that I have is that there is no benefit to counter picking by simply changing variations when you can switch to a character with an overall better match up against your opponents last counter pick.

This means that players will probably learn the best variation of their main and then the best character/variation that compliments their main's counter picks. There is no point in learning all three variations of one character if the winner is variation locked. It will just be like previous games where the people who counter pick will keep switching characters and the players who are character loyalists will simply use their characters best overall variation. (The character loyalist may end up switching variations to help themselves out but it still won't be as optimal as a true counter pick)

 

[RoboCop]

^^^

 

[Doombawkz]

We should start an unlock variation council

I'll make us T-shirts.

 

[HeroesNZ]

"Variation Lock is simple".
Character Lock is also simple for those with a brain. If you're playing fighting games competitively and can't follow a simple rule like 'winner picks variation before loser', then I don't know what to tell you.

"Variation Lock is what we've always done".
MKX has a variation system more similar to games such as Arcana Hearts 3 (which uses Character Lock). If anything, those rules should take precedence.

"You shouldn't let the winner counterpick".
The winner can only change variation if the loser changes character. The loser shouldn't be stupid enough to pick a character that does horribly against all of the winner's variations. That's like a Zatanna player switching to Batman after losing to Aquaman and claiming the winner counterpicked them. Regardless, the winner picks variation first so the loser gets the final counterpick.

"I should be able to adapt to the winner's tactics".
...And you will be able to, provided you don't change character. You pro-variation lock people claim that variations are essentially 3 different characters. Well if they are 3 different characters then that means that a character loyalist has 3 different characters to counterpick the opponent with, as opposed to one in previous games. I'm sure that, within these 3 'characters', you'll be able to find someone who will allow you to adapt well to the winner's tactics.

If you do change character, chances are that you switched to counterpick the opponent. In this case, if the winner changes variation, then you should have no problem beating them because the MU will be in your favour. If you lose, then it's because you weren't prepared for the MU & got outplayed, in which case the fault lies with the player, not with the ruleset.

 

[Eddy Wang]

and then i look at the votes and be like WTF

can 51% of TYM explain to me why is char and var locked?

 

[KRYS9984]

What options are you giving someone who is still locked into the same character and has to pick variation first? What advantage does he get?
As I've said a few times before...

UNLESS YOU ARE COUNTERPICKING YOURSELF, THERE IS NO ADVANTAGE GIVEN TO THE WINNER.

I understand this (winner chooses alternate variation beforehand thus not offering a direct advantage) but why give an option in the first place?

If a match ends and the loser chooses to go back to the character select screen (for whatever reason), the winner should select his previous configuration and wait for his opponent. He shouldn't be sitting around wondering if he has the option to change variation if the opponent hasn't come to a decision yet.

If the loser decided to run it back, all that waiting / wondering was useless and they must select their previous configuration. It just makes for an odd situation as opposed to a character / variation lock which leaves the decision making solely to the loser (except for stages which should be random).