Can we get a consensus on Character/Variation Lock rules?

[Prinz]

Variation unlo

and then i look at the votes and be like WTF

can 51% of TYM explain to me why is char and var locked?

Because, in this case the loser is unlimited to what character or variation he can choose. Also every variation is treated as an ndividual character, which objectively they are.

 

[Doombawkz]

I understand this (winner chooses alternate variation beforehand thus not offering a direct advantage) but why give an option in the first place?

If a match ends and the loser chooses to go back to the character select screen (for whatever reason), the winner should select his previous configuration and wait for his opponent. He shouldn't be sitting around wondering if he has the option to change variation if the opponent hasn't come to a decision yet.

If the loser decided to run it back, all that waiting / wondering was useless and they must select their previous configuration. It just makes for an odd situation as opposed to a character / variation lock which leaves the decision making solely to the loser (except for stages which should be random).

Winner is still stuck on his character, the time between him moving one space to the left and one to the right isn't any more than the other people choosing their entire new set-up, since the moment they choose their character the first player should know what they plan to do.

 

[Doombawkz]

For team unlock

 

[Prinz]

I can alredy see Tom Brady along the way whining about Sub-Zero that he doesn't have any advantage on any of his variation against certain char/variation. I can already smell it

 

[SaltShaker]

I can alredy see Tom Brady along the way whining about Sub-Zero that he doesn't have any advantage on any of his variation against certain char/variation. I can already smell it

You know what is even more likely? Tom Brady whining because he mastered Sub-Zero but people have 87 variations to counter pick him with.

 

[kabelfritz]

ill say it one last time, as nobody seems to care about it:

if you wanna develope a ruleset that builds on mkx's strenghts and makes them shine, its character lock for both, loser picks Variation. the whole system is designed with character loyalists in mind, to benefit people with fully-fleshed out characters, and preventing scumbag counterpicks. if the mentioned rule is not applied, the good intentions might have an outcome thats worse than before in terms of scumbag counterpicks.

 

[Compbros]

ill say it one last time, as nobody seems to care about it:

if you wanna develope a ruleset that builds on mkx's strenghts and makes them shine, (as well as the developers intentions) its character lock for both, loser picks Variation. the whole system is designed with character loyalists in mind, to benefit people with fully-fleshed out characters, and preventing scumbag counterpicks. if the mentioned rule is not applied, the good intentions might have an outcome thats worse than before in terms of scumbag counterpicks.

Players shouldn't be limited in such a way that they must run with a character the entire set no matter what. This is coming from a strictly Sonya/Superman player that has been counter-picked with Kenshi/Kabal/Freddy/Zod/Aquaman.


Edit: What if people are loyal to a couple characters? Why shouldn't they be allowed to switch on a loss?

 

[kabelfritz]

Players shouldn't be limited in such a way that they must run with a character the entire set no matter what. This is coming from a strictly Sonya/Superman player that has been counter-picked with Kenshi/Kabal/Freddy/Zod/Aquaman.

i know a certain kind of players is not gonna like it, and thats ok, of course everyone is supposed to have fun with the game his way. but again, i think this ruleset goes with the intention of the developers and the strengths of the game best.

 

[Desperdicio]

Here's what I think:

Why do we allow the loser to change character or stage on MK9? Because we have to make sure that he didn't lose due to the character or the stage. We want to make sure that the winner of that round is the best of the two players, so we lock him and see what happens. Now the loser knows a little bit about his game, so he can play more confidently. If the winner changes his move set, if he gets some new tools, the loser will find himself on that same guessing situation again, so maybe he loses just because he needed some time to warm up. Why would we allow the loser to change character, variation, or stage in MKX? Why would we lock the winner's character and variation? For the same reason. Changing variation is modifying the equation, perhaps on our favor, perhaps not. The move set changes, perhaps not as much as if we changed character, but it is a significant change, anyway.

I think changing variations in the middle of a match is not the point of variations. The point is being able to stay loyal to a certain character. If I want to use Sub-Zero against everyone, for instance, I learn his three variations, instead of learning three different characters. That way, everyone can remain loyal to his favorite. That doesn't mean you have to change your moves after each round just so you can confuse your opponent a little more. Just because the name, look and background of your character remain the same, it doesn't mean that you're not changing anything significant. I think competitive play has to be as far from random as it can. It's our duty to reduce chance and make sure that only the best come out as winners.

On the other hand, if you want to allow the counter-picking game to go a little bit further than it used to go, then you start evaluating players for their ability to read the mind of their opponents on the character select screen as well, and not just the way they play each other on the arena. It's another way of deciding who's best. I'm not saying it's wrong, it's just different.

 

[Compbros]

i know a certain kind of players is not gonna like it, and that ok, of course everyone is supposed to have fun with the game his way. but again, i think this ruleset goes with the intention of the developers and the strengths of the game best.

But it's not just a "kind of player" which I assume you mean people that play several characters instead of being character specialists, it hurts everyone. Take me for example, I love Cassie in this game and plan to main her no matter what, but I also love Sonya and have been a fan of hers for years so I want to play her as well. Why shouldn't I be able to play either character when I lose with the other? I think this rule is much too restrictive.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Sign up with a character

blind draw first match

winner is locked

loser can change variation

that is how i'm running my in office games baby.

The fact of the matter, it is silly that OPPONENTS get to see whom each other chose at all.

 

[Prinz]

But it's not just a "kind of player" which I assume you mean people that play several characters instead of being character specialists, it hurts everyone. Take me for example, I love Cassie in this game and plan to main her no matter what, but I also love Sonya and have been a fan of hers for years so I want to play her as well. Why shouldn't I be able to play either character when I lose with the other? I think this rule is much too restrictive.

Because, at the end of the day, in tournament you play to win. Fun is just coming along with it.

 

[KRYS9984]

Winner is still stuck on his character, the time between him moving one space to the left and one to the right isn't any more than the other people choosing their entire new set-up, since the moment they choose their character the first player should know what they plan to do.

Here's a scenario:

We're fighting each other in tournament play (I'm using Ermac and you're using Ferra / Torr),

I win the first match and you decide to go to the character select screen (for whatever reason).

I go back to Ermac and hover on my variation screen, you opt to change character and select Goro (without confirming a variation) and I immediately choose a different variation because I must do so before you confirm yours (according to the unlock variation rule).

You see this, back out of Goro and go back to the character select to assess your options once again (forcing me to back out as well).

This makes for an odd situation; it gives loser some insight on the winners variation pick and frankly a waste of time.

The question is, should the loser be locked to a character once selected (before choosing variation) and not allowed to back out once seeing the opponents change of variation (if they decide to do so using the unlocked variation rule)?

This would bring up a new discussion; once the loser selects a new character (before selecting a variation thus enabling the opponent the option to switch theirs) should they be locked to that new character choice or are they free to do what they want (back out)?

 

[Compbros]

Because, at the end of the day, in tournament you play to win. Fun is just coming along with it.

Then why restrict anyone? Let anyone choose anything and may the best character win.

 

[Doombawkz]

Here's a scenario:

We're fighting each other in tournament play (I'm using Ermac and you're using Ferra / Torr),

I win the first match and you decide to go to the character select screen (for whatever reason).

I go back to Ermac and hover on my variation screen, you opt to change character and select Goro (without confirming a variation) and I immediately choose a different variation because I must do so before you confirm yours (according to the unlock variation rule).

You see this, back out of Goro and go back to the character select to assess your options once again (forcing me to back out as well).

This makes for an odd situation; it gives loser some insight on the winners variation pick and frankly a waste of time.

The question is, should the loser be locked to a character once selected (before choosing variation) and not allowed to back out once seeing the opponents change of variation (if they decide to do so using the unlocked variation rule)?

This would bring up a new discussion; once the loser selects a new character (before selecting a variation thus enabling the opponent the option to switch theirs) should they be locked to that new character choice or are they free to do what they want (back out)?

Yes, once they pick a character they are locked into that choice and go through variations.
You can't pick a character, get counterpicked, and then back out. Thats not how it works.
Thats never how it works.

So to remedy the entire question, no, if you beat me as Ermac and I go to Goro, I can't leave Goro once you pick variation. That falls on the player. If they get salty, tell them to think before choosing next time.

 

[Prinz]

Then why restrict anyone? Let anyone choose anything and may the best character win.

Restrictions are part of the fun. Without them there would be only chaos. And the fun part is hard to find within chaos, like anything else for that matter.

 

[Compbros]

Here's what I think:

Why do we allow the loser to change character or stage on MK9? Because we have to make sure that he didn't lose due to the character or the stage. We want to make sure that the winner of that round is the best of the two players, so we lock him and see what happens. Now the loser knows a little bit about his game, so he can play more confidently. If the winner changes his move set, if he gets some new tools, the loser will find himself on that same guessing situation again, so maybe he loses just because he needed some time to warm up. Why would we allow the loser to change character, variation, or stage in MKX? Why would we lock the winner's character and variation? For the same reason. Changing variation is modifying the equation, perhaps on our favor, perhaps not. The move set changes, perhaps not as much as if we changed character, but it is a significant change, anyway.

I think changing variations in the middle of a match is not the point of variations. The point is being able to stay loyal to a certain character. If I want to use Sub-Zero against everyone, for instance, I learn his three variations, instead of learning three different characters. That way, everyone can remain loyal to his favorite. That doesn't mean you have to change your moves after each round just so you can confuse your opponent a little more. Just because the name, look and background of your character remain the same, it doesn't mean that you're not changing anything significant. I think competitive play has to be as far from random as it can. It's our duty to reduce chance and make sure that only the best come out as winners.

If the player lost then, no matter what, it's on them. I've brought this up before but I could pick up Kenshi today and I'd probably lose against Jerimah's Sheeva even though that matchup is one of the worst in the game. Regardless, character/stage switch was done so the loser can get some type of advantage with a counter-pick/change of pace character or a larger/smaller stage. With what we're proposing the loser still gets an advantage, counter-pick wise, they just don't get a complete advantage. You bring up character or stage, well double lock is like allowing the loser to change both character AND stage. The loser can choose a character that is favorable against the winner's and a variation that is favorable against the winner's.


If it's to stay loyal to a character then what we're proposing is no problem. If people want to stay loyal then they can stay with the character they lost with and have the winner be full lock. If they wanna be a counter picker then they have to choose wisely.

 

[KRYS9984]

Yes, once they pick a character they are locked into that choice and go through variations.
You can't pick a character, get counterpicked, and then back out. Thats not how it works.
Thats never how it works.

So to remedy the entire question, no, if you beat me as Ermac and I go to Goro, I can't leave Goro once you pick variation. That falls on the player. If they get salty, tell them to think before choosing next time.

If this rule was enforced (loser cannot back out once a character is selected before variation) I could see variation unlock working.

Ultimately, I'm still in favor of the lock but consider this a good (alternative) option as well.

 

[Duck Nation]

Reminder to the people saying "this is the most logical choice:" there is a lot of subjectivity to this debate. Someone can say "well this is how I would prefer the game to be played," and I'm sorry, but that's a valid response to this discussion. So you can argue until you're blue in the face, but we've established it's unlikely to change any minds. This thread is long on discussion and short on solutions.

That said, @Compbros, is Detroit looking to run full lock at the moment?

I'm hesitant to start just randomly tagging other people to see what their regions are up to, but it's probably a good idea. Ugh.

 

[Compbros]

Restrictions are part of the fun. Without them there would be only chaos. And the fun part is hard to find within chaos, like anything else for that matter.

So the point is to win and fun is just a by product but restrictions are fun so restricting the winner is fun? I think I just made my own head hurt.

 

[Alright RyRy]

I hope this thread gets closed.

The winner should not be able to counter-pick the loser. That is the stupidest thing I have heard of.

Just imagine being in the seat when your deciding to "counterpick" your opponent.

He plays with Fisticuffs Johnny C You Picked Hellfire Scorpion

You go back the to the character selection screen, thinking "Ok I am going to switch characters but I also know that he has the option to counter-pick my counter-pick."

That is stupid. I never want to think about that in a tournament.

@Compbros you also have to think about people who are going to main say Mileena for example where if they win the first match her other 2 Variations are TOTALLY different and give the winner a more even chance? Isn't that the point of counter-picking to GAIN the advantage?

 

[Dizzy]

List of things that should be locked:

Characters
Variations
This thread

 

[Duck Nation]

List of things that should be locked:

Characters
Variations
This thread

So is Chicago running full locked?

 

[BRUTALITY]

if youre for variation lock you are seriously stupid and miss the whole point of them in the first place

 

[kabelfritz]

So the point is to win and fun is just a by product but restrictions are fun so restricting the winner is fun? I think I just made my own head hurt.

what he says is, if there were no rules there would be no game.