SALTY Bradycast - The Alien Outcry & Various Game Balance Thoughts

[Skedar70]

Can you better explain this concept?

The timing to punish some moves is different because of some sort of stun you are left after you block the hit. For example, Kotal overhead sword you can´t just input an attack to punish it you have to know the timing. In some moves you have to wait a little while in others you have to do it immediately after you block. You have to practice the timing of your punishes for many moves in the game.

 

[leoj89]

The game already was patched before EVO, the latest that came out at the end of March.

Damn, that kinda sucks if I'm reading between the lines correctly.

 

[Zabru]

The game already was patched before EVO, the latest that came out at the end of March.

Oh boy.

 

[Take$$$]

Pretty much nailed it.

 

[MK_Al]

its correct, it explains clearly why hasn't been working, well its kinda deceiving if you ask me, having to add 1 frame to every single move displayed in the frame data execution wise.

I agree it can be missleading esp having played mk9.

To stay on topic, the biggest problem in mkx is the risk/reward balance of certain (offencive) buttons, strings and specials. I mean how can mileenas b1 at least not have a bit more recovery frames? The way it is now it involves almost no risk but leads into pressure or good damage (and thats only one example in this game).

TBH I don't even see how 50/50ies with one unsafe option are ok. Say you have to block a 50/50 for whatever reason, than this is going to happen:

you block low, oponents hits low -> no harm done
you block low, oponent hits high-> Oponent nets himself 35% dmg with one bar
you block high, oponent hits low -> Oponent nets himself 35% dmg with one bar
you block high, oponent hits high-> no harm done

Thats total 70% dmg with four options and about 17% on average. 17% reward for you trying to block. Same scenario with one unsafe option (assuming that you'll get out 35% as well) leads to 35% dmg in total and about 9% reward on average. Only with both options beeing unsafe risk and reward are even and on par with chars that have no 50/50ies.

 

[thlityoursloat]

Well said.

 

[Eddy Wang]

I agree it can be missleading esp having played mk9.

To stay on topic, the biggest problem in mkx is the risk/reward balance of certain (offencive) buttons, strings and specials. I mean how can mileenas b1 at least not have a bit more recovery frames? The way it is now it involves almost no risk but leads into pressure or good damage (and thats only one example in this game).

TBH I don't even see how 50/50ies with one unsafe option are ok. Say you have to block a 50/50 for whatever reason, than this is going to happen:

you block low, oponents hits low -> no harm done
you block low, oponent hits high-> Oponent nets himself 35% dmg with one bar
you block high, oponent hits low -> Oponent nets himself 35% dmg with one bar
you block high, oponent hits high-> no harm done

Thats total 70% dmg with four options and about 17% on average. 17% reward for you trying to block. Same scenario with one unsafe option (assuming that you'll get out 35% as well) leads to 35% dmg in total and about 9% reward on average. Only with both options beeing unsafe risk and reward are even and on par with chars that have no 50/50ies.

Very true, why even we have round starting reaching normals and safe ones?
The bullshit should be cut right there, the walkspeed in the game for some characters with less reaching normals aren't that fast, it doesn't add up having strings covering more ground in double of the time compared to how much ground walking back can covers and in many cases, these strings are hitting mid.

If at least back dashes were this reliable, still most of the cast has laughable backdashes, well, that is the route NRS is taking, just don't expect to shove us the very same things next game.

Still, if they really want this game to shine, the offense in general needs to be toned down, offense needs to be risen, so we can't stop having setplays all the time, corner carrying combos into deciding setups and so on.

 

[Rude]

Good post. The only thing I disagree with is making Sonya's grenades vanish when she's hit. I feel like that's a HUGE part of her defensive game. When Sonya has zero grenades, her defense is basically nonexistent unless she has meter. That's like saying Special Forces's drone should disappear when she's hit.

Demo Sonya almost always has grenades, though.

If you have her in hitstun, why should she still be able to hit you with them?

Let me use an example: Quan's defense is pretty bad in Summoner, but if you hit him when Bat is out, the Bat goes away. Currently -to my knowledge- Demo Sonya is the only character with this benefit. If you score a hit on Demo, the reward shouldn't be getting launched.

 

[Rude]

Also, Tom is 100% right about D'Vorah's puddle. I ranted about how ridiculous it was awhile back and was blown up.

I'm glad he sees it, too.

 

[EMPEROR PRYCE]

The game already was patched before EVO, the latest that came out at the end of March.

So does this mean NRS is going to ignore the plethora of bugs surrounding this character? All while providing players with money for abusing these glitches and exploits?

I understand it's not all up to NRS when it comes to patches, but with how many NRS employees that visit this site, along with how many competitors there are, there could be some communication aside from vague posts like this that represent no real meaning aside from information that was already known.

 

[Invincible Salads]

unblocking does not cost one frame. landing a reversal is rewarded by taking a frame off the startup of that reversal.
anyway, I agree on the offence / defense balancing. all jump ins should at least have a gap on block

I disagree about jumpins having a gap. Just make air normals have less priority over ground normals and voila.

 

[JerzeyReign]

I don't agree with the Mileena nerfs/changes for the following reasons: 1. B1 can be low profiled and checked nicely with d4. Or Sub Zero can slide it as well as Reptile. Moves like that destroy it. You can also NJP it (well those characters with the insane NJPs) or armor the entire thing. I just don't agree. I can't see it as an all empowering move that carries players. The one player who uses it frequently just happens to be top two in the world. 2. Air sai after tk is fine. You can d1 it for a conversion and punish. Using it outside of anti zoning is a bigger risk for the Mileena player more than her opponent. I don't see what you're getting at there. Gonna continue the video and see if you elaborate later on regarding it.

Edit: You're doing what I explained above in the video. I can see what you're saying but still don't agree with it needing to be touched as you timed it correctly several times in your example. A reason I feel that way is that no pro players were making videos complaining about it completely whiffing haha. Gonna push play on the video breh.

Edit #2: Just went into the lab with Sub and I'm no Sub main but that air sai after the blocked telekick can be neutral ducked and punished.

 

[Aqueous_Echo]

Good video @Tom Brady agree or disagree hes at least being fair and impartial in his suggestions. Cant really disagree with the ideas presented. Theres ways around some of the things presented but put defense in much more risk than the offense and imo offense should receive less reward than good defense.

 

[Ragnarök Tyr]

If NRS wanted to or had the time to fix the bugs, glitches, tone down offense etc then they would have done so by now. Judging from the way the game is now some things are just here to stay.

Summoner still has a few HTB setups, as does Cyrax and CyberSub Zero, Takeda as well.

A List Cage still has numerous jailing cancels.

D'vorah has safe mixups and puddle Oki on knockdown.

Jump in punches jail into openers that have double digit start up*

Jail in the sense you can't counter hit with a normal

Ie: Kotal ji1 ~ F2

Sub Zero ji1 ~ b2

Yes you can react and block both, however there is no reason a jump pinch that is supposedly +2 on block should then lead to a 17 frame overhead or 18 frame advancing normal that crushes any non reversal/armor reversal.

Hit box oddities

Goro and Liu Kang having hit boxes behind them during Punch Walk/Bike Kick.

Any of the hit box issues surrounding Alien

A lack of Hurt Boxes on characters like Alien and Dvorah

Block Stun

Etc etc.

I do hope there are more scheduled hot fixes in the future. Though I imagine the nrs team is working on Injustice 2. Which will likely have some improvements over the first title but still be plagued with some of the issues surrounding MKX or Injustice 1. IF one were to assume.

 

[Doctor Rektangle]

Lord. Brady.

This image pissed me off because Judas isn't Noob Saibot

 

[ismael4790]

I don't agree with the Mileena nerfs/changes for the following reasons: 1. B1 can be low profiled and checked nicely with d4. Or Sub Zero can slide it as well as Reptile. Moves like that destroy it. You can also NJP it (well those characters with the insane NJPs) or armor the entire thing. I just don't agree. I can't see it as an all empowering move that carries players. The one player who uses it frequently just happens to be top two in the world. 2. Air sai after tk is fine. You can d1 it for a conversion and punish. Using it outside of anti zoning is a bigger risk for the Mileena player more than her opponent. I don't see what you're getting at there. Gonna continue the video and see if you elaborate later on regarding it.

Edit: You're doing what I explained above in the video. I can see what you're saying but still don't agree with it needing to be touched as you timed it correctly several times in your example. A reason I feel that way is that no pro players were making videos complaining about it completely whiffing haha. Gonna push play on the video breh.

Edit #2: Just went into the lab with Sub and I'm no Sub main but that air sai after the blocked telekick can be neutral ducked and punished.

Mileena's teleport should be free punish as all teleports in the game, she shouldn't get the option to get in your face that easily and get away with it.
The problem is that she can buy a strong chance of not getting punished with the mindgame sai-no sai. Teleport with sai only can only be consistently punished with d1 into combo. If she decides not to do the sai, then you can punish normally, but usually she gets away unpunished because you are expecting the sai. Basically she gets, as Tom says, a 50% chance of not getting punished when you blocked correctly his tracking teleport, which is pretty stupid.
The only option I see to solve it is to significantly change the timing of the sai after blocked teleport, or simply making it not come out on block as Tom said.

 

[WakeUp DP]

If NRS wanted to or had the time to fix the bugs, glitches, tone down offense etc then they would have done so by now. Judging from the way the game is now some things are just here to stay.

Summoner still has a few HTB setups, as does Cyrax and CyberSub Zero, Takeda as well.

A List Cage still has numerous jailing cancels.

D'vorah has safe mixups and puddle Oki on knockdown.

Jump in punches jail into openers that have double digit start up*

Jail in the sense you can't counter hit with a normal

Ie: Kotal ji1 ~ F2

Sub Zero ji1 ~ b2

Yes you can react and block both, however there is no reason a jump pinch that is supposedly +2 on block should then lead to a 17 frame overhead or 18 frame advancing normal that crushes any non reversal/armor reversal.

Hit box oddities

Goro and Liu Kang having hit boxes behind them during Punch Walk/Bike Kick.

Any of the hit box issues surrounding Alien

A lack of Hurt Boxes on characters like Alien and Dvorah

Block Stun

Etc etc.

I do hope there are more scheduled hot fixes in the future. Though I imagine the nrs team is working on Injustice 2. Which will likely have some improvements over the first title but still be plagued with some of the issues surrounding MKX or Injustice 1. IF one were to assume.

Subz jp1 doesn't really combo into b2. But I agreed for the most part.

 

[KingHippo]

So does this mean NRS is going to ignore the plethora of bugs surrounding this character? All while providing players with money for abusing these glitches and exploits?

I understand it's not all up to NRS when it comes to patches, but with how many NRS employees that visit this site, along with how many competitors there are, there could be some communication aside from vague posts like this that represent no real meaning aside from information that was already known.

As far as I remember, they have said numerous times that the most recent balance patch would be the last unless something gamebreaking came up. Is it their fault that no one actually pays attention and is just crying?

 

[EMPEROR PRYCE]

As far as I remember, they have said numerous times that the most recent balance patch would be the last unless something gamebreaking came up. Is it their fault that no one actually pays attention and is just crying?

Isn't the latest bug by sonicfox and dragon deemed game breaking though?

 

[GOL Eklectic]

On point with this one, hopefully they listen.

 

[KingHippo]

Isn't the latest bug by sonicfox and dragon deemed game breaking though?

Why? Does everyone go into a T-pose and the game freezes? That sounds game breaking, if that's the case.

 

[JerzeyReign]

Mileena's teleport should be free punish as all teleports in the game, she shouldn't get the option to get in your face that easily and get away with it.
The problem is that she can buy a strong chance of not getting punished with the mindgame sai-no sai. Teleport with sai only can only be consistently punished with d1 into combo. If she decides not to do the sai, then you can punish normally, but usually she gets away unpunished because you are expecting the sai. Basically she gets, as Tom says, a 50% chance of not getting punished when you blocked correctly his tracking teleport, which is pretty stupid.
The only option I see is to significantly change the timing of the sai after blocked teleport, or simply making it not come out on block as Tom said.

I see and again I'm not a SZ main but you couldn't d1, convert and punish the telekicks. Asking because a lot of the cast can as I'm one of those Mileenas who gets hit with it a lot haha

 

[Matix218]

This brady cast was great and Tom really hit the nail on the head regarding the characters he discussed. Good post @Tom Brady

 

[Kroaken]

I don't agree with the Mileena nerfs/changes for the following reasons: 1. B1 can be low profiled and checked nicely with d4. Or Sub Zero can slide it as well as Reptile. Moves like that destroy it. You can also NJP it (well those characters with the insane NJPs) or armor the entire thing. I just don't agree. I can't see it as an all empowering move that carries players. The one player who uses it frequently just happens to be top two in the world. 2. Air sai after tk is fine. You can d1 it for a conversion and punish. Using it outside of anti zoning is a bigger risk for the Mileena player more than her opponent. I don't see what you're getting at there. Gonna continue the video and see if you elaborate later on regarding it.

Edit: You're doing what I explained above in the video. I can see what you're saying but still don't agree with it needing to be touched as you timed it correctly several times in your example. A reason I feel that way is that no pro players were making videos complaining about it completely whiffing haha. Gonna push play on the video breh.

Edit #2: Just went into the lab with Sub and I'm no Sub main but that air sai after the blocked telekick can be neutral ducked and punished.

Lol I cant internally decide if someone who mains the character should really have a say in whether or not said character needs nerfs. On one hand, you're likely well informed on your character. On the other, you're likely biased lol.

I agree with Tom on the Mileena things. All teleports should be unsafe on block. It's black and white for me

 

[Ragnarök Tyr]

@WakeUp DP it won't combo on hit, but I'm referring to block advantage. Using Ermac as an example of a character with a 6 frame d1. There is no reason why after blocking the supposedly +2 ji1 that my 6 frame poke should get crushed by a 17 frame overhead even with the +2 advantage.