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Block Button Vs B2B. Why does it bother you?

OG Mannimal

OG "OG Mannimal" Mannimal
For you to even think that the developers were like "Hey lets make this character a frame trapper to lock down an opponent to the point of not being able to escape even with ex specials, wakeups, push blocking, supermoves, interactable escapes ect, Oh! and lets leave a frame hole in the programing to allow for crossup tech".

lol. I don't think so. It doesn't surprise me at how you would even defend a flaw in the game just because you choose to exploit it and make it one of the most important features in your gameplay that allows you to win matches by basically frame trapping your opponent over and over again. Even to the point of nullifying most wakeup attempts with the flawed exploit. I'm sorry but you struck out big time here. You can try to defend a flaw in the game you have chosen to exploit, use and call "cross up tech" till you're blue in the face but your defense will always be egg shell empty.

The block button basically says '' nope, can't do that flawed move here, you're going to have to actually develop better timing and reaction speed to catch me open. Nope, you can't hit confirm me because you jumped while I was grounded and defy the blocking system by connect on me before the game program recognizes we are facing oppposit each other and has not had enough time to register the blocking direction".

Sorry, B2B is garbage for fighting games. Just because street fighter and Marvel vs Capcom have it doesn't mean its good.
Jesus... You're a troll right? Please tell me you're a troll.
 

VenomX-90

"On your Knees!"
HAHA. Man, Eyedol was so broken in KI. Eyedol and Cinder made lots of people rage in the arcades.
You're telling me lol, I have it on MAME used to have the game back on the SNES. He even worse than Shao Kahn cuz everytime he gets you eyedol heals.
 

RM Truth

Unintentional Tier Whore Follow me @TruthRM
I don't care either way, but I prefer B2B. I come from a background of back to block games, so it feels normal to me. Also, I feel that cross ups are a big part of mixups for characters that don't have a very good high low game. Can you imagine how bad Batman would be if this game wasn't B2B?
 
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RM Truth

Unintentional Tier Whore Follow me @TruthRM
B2B also allows for that flawed crossup tech that some players use to basically nullify the time an opponent character is suppose to be able to block but is unable to because of an anti directional shift that defies the blocking system's directionality, because the developers did not have that in mind when they created the game nor did they imagine a move like that would be so exploited to the point of having some people actually naming the flawed exploit as "crossup tech".
This argument would have been relevant like 20 years ago, except when people discovered cross ups they embraced them as a deep mechanic.
 

RM Truth

Unintentional Tier Whore Follow me @TruthRM
I just read through the rest of this thread. A lot of people complaining about the so called "random" factor of ambiguous cross ups. Making reads is one of the biggest aspects of high level play. Why are people so scared of the idea of making a guess?
 

ShadowBeatz

Dropper of Bass and Bombs
I just read through the rest of this thread. A lot of people complaining about the so called "random" factor of ambiguous cross ups. Making reads is one of the biggest aspects of high level play. Why are people so scared of the idea of making a guess?
Because it's not really a "read." The attacker doesn't even know which side he's going to be on.
 

OG Mannimal

OG "OG Mannimal" Mannimal
I'm curious as to what people think of this setup, is it ambiguous?

After a hkd lift from raven, I can use either a j3 or j2 to stay same side or cross up; I know what side it will land on depending on the normal I use, but the defender cannot know, it's a guess. So is it ambiguous?
 

RM Truth

Unintentional Tier Whore Follow me @TruthRM
Because it's not really a "read." The attacker doesn't even know which side he's going to be on.
Umm. If you perform an action on a gut feeling, that's kinda the definition of a read, and this whole idea where the attacker doesn't know what side they'll land on is BS. Anyone that understands how their characters setups work knows how to hit their cross ups on the side that they want.
 

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
Because it's not really a "read." The attacker doesn't even know which side he's going to be on.
That is not true most of the time.

I'm curious as to what people think of this setup, is it ambiguous?

After a hkd lift from raven, I can use either a j3 or j2 to stay same side or cross up; I know what side it will land on depending on the normal I use, but the defender cannot know, it's a guess. So is it ambiguous?
By definition yes. Anytime the defender cannot know what side and has to make a read it is ambiguous. The whole notion that ambiguous crossups are ambiguous for both the attacker and defender is total BS.
 

RM_NINfan101

Nine Inch Nails fan from Metro Detroit, Michigan
Anti-air when I'm knocked down? BRILLIANT!

I want you to give me a specific example of an ambiguous crossup in a game you honestly feel like you can't deal with. Depending on who you are, you can even escape out of them with simple DPs or escape moves like a teleport. So let's hear it.
 

ShadowBeatz

Dropper of Bass and Bombs
I want you to give me a specific example of an ambiguous crossup in a game you honestly feel like you can't deal with. Depending on who you are, you can even escape out of them with simple DPs or escape moves like a teleport. So let's hear it.
Oh I don't play Injustice because I hate it and have absolutely no interest in being good at it :D I was just giving you reasoning behind the "random" factor that you were talking about.
 

RM_NINfan101

Nine Inch Nails fan from Metro Detroit, Michigan
Oh I don't play Injustice because I hate it and have absolutely no interest in being good at it :D I was just giving you reasoning behind the "random" factor that you were talking about.
I don't play Injustice like that either. There is nothing random about a cross-up that depending on the timing the button was pressed, puts you on the side you want as the attacker. Very little moves are ever truly ambiguous. Even as the defender, you can always go into training mode. Unless you're playing as Guile in AE v. 2012, you have no right to really complain too much about crossups or ambiguity.

Now if you hate crossups that's whatever, all your opinion. I am indifferent towards them. They're in most fighting games so unless you plan on only playing games with a block button, you just kinda have to get used to them. They are certainly very easily dealt with, even on knockdown for most games and characters. Ironic enough that your display picture is of a B2B game with crossups in it.
 

ShadowBeatz

Dropper of Bass and Bombs
Now if you hate crossups that's whatever, all your opinion. I am indifferent towards them. They're in most fighting games so unless you plan on only playing games with a block button, you just kinda have to get used to them. They are certainly very easily dealt with, even on knockdown for most games and characters. Ironic enough that your display picture is of a B2B game with crossups in it.
Oh I love Killer Instinct. I think it's the best fighting game ever played, but it being back-to-block has absolutely nothing to do with it. I would think it was the best whether it had a block button or back-to-block because blocking mechanics alone don't make or break any fighting game.
 

BRUTALITY

Banned
He's basically trying to say that cross ups bring out some of the most broke setups you see. Its not completely scrubby what he's saying. Cross ups are dumb in a lot of ways. Have you seen the ambiguous cross ups in street fighter? Shit is dumb. It becomes just one big guessing game. No baiting involved, it's not like your opening your opponent up, it is just straight up guessing. Some superman and MMH setups I see are pretty stupid. No matter how good I am as a player I'm not gonna guess right 100% of the time.
Have you seen the inescapable resets and unseeable 50/50s as well as cross ups in Injustice? Shit is dumb. It becomes just one big unseeable guessing game into a vortex. No baiting involved, it's not like your opening your opponent up, it is just straight up guessing. Some Batgirl and Killer Frost setups I see are pretty stupid. No matter how good I am as a player I'm not gonna guess right 100% of the time.
 
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For you to even think that the developers were like "Hey lets make this character a frame trapper to lock down an opponent to the point of not being able to escape even with ex specials, wakeups, push blocking, supermoves, interactable escapes ect, Oh! and lets leave a frame hole in the programing to allow for crossup tech".

lol. I don't think so. It doesn't surprise me at how you would even defend a flaw in the game just because you choose to exploit it and make it one of the most important features in your gameplay that allows you to win matches by basically frame trapping your opponent over and over again. Even to the point of nullifying most wakeup attempts with the flawed exploit. I'm sorry but you struck out big time here. You can try to defend a flaw in the game you have chosen to exploit, use and call "cross up tech" till you're blue in the face but your defense will always be egg shell empty.

The block button basically says '' nope, can't do that flawed move here, you're going to have to actually develop better timing and reaction speed to catch me open. Nope, you can't hit confirm me because you jumped while I was grounded and defy the blocking system by connect on me before the game program recognizes we are facing oppposit each other and has not had enough time to register the blocking direction".

Sorry, B2B is garbage for fighting games. Just because street fighter and Marvel vs Capcom have it doesn't mean its good.
Why are you talking about "constant frame trapping" when talking about b2b cross-ups?

Reading your complaints about it, I have a feeling your experience with b2b is mostly Injustice and not much else. Because when you say "cross-ups are stupid because they deny your wake up options", to me it sounds like you are referring to OTGs like Wonder Woman and Superman have. But that's Injustice not b2b or cross-ups in general.

In sf4 for example you can backdash, sometimes low profile or auto-correct reversal a cross-up. And if it's a safe jump+cross-up (rare) you can delay quickstand, fadc or just call their OS. And now you can even delay wake up on hard KD. Or just block... It's really not the same as Inj OTGs and resets that take all of your escape options away.

On top of that, as it was already mentioned, true ambiguous cross-ups (the ones where the attacker himself doesn't know which side he'll end up hitting) are REALLY RARE. The reason why I mentioned Daigo earlier is because he proved that you can hit the lab, study a character's setups and block 99% of them. Because he did just that against every single setup Xian threw at him in that FT10. He didn't guess right 20 times in a row, he noticed how long Xian waited before jumping, which normals where whiffed, if Gen changed stances etc. so he always knew which side Gen was going to hit on. Because for hours he practiced defending against those setups in training mode.

If you don't want to deal with cross-up pressure, don't get knocked down. That's a huge principle of SF in general. You constantly fight for position advantage and you engage in multiple footsie battles. And when you finally get this knockdown then you are rewarded and should get rewarded with an OPPORTUNITY to mixup. You're SUPPOSED to be scared of the okizeme. Getting back up on your feet is supposed to suck for you. They should have an advantage as you're getting up and you shouldn't be allowed to get out of pressure for free. The bullshit okizeme is supposed to be an incentive so you try to not get knocked down again next time.

And to people saying the cross-up opportunity shouldn't be a guess. lol? EVERYTHING you do every second when you are fighting someone is a guess. Every time you walk forward you are guessing that they won't throw a poke at you. Every time you poke you are guessing that they won't counter hit or whiff punish you. Every time you block you are guessing they won't throw you. Every time you crouch tech you are guessing they won't frametrap you. Every time you go for a frame trap you are guessing that they won't reversal. Every time you jump you are guessing they won't be ready to anti-air. Every time you throw a fireball at mid-range you are guessing they won't read it or react to it in time. So reality is that fighting games are all about guessing and making constant educated reads. It's about bluffing and calling someone out. It's about courage and sometimes a little bit of luck.

Being against ambiguous mixups is like being against gravity. You can hate it all you want you're still gonna have to deal with it no matter what.
 
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