Block Button Vs B2B. Why does it bother you?

[CURBOLICOUS]

this is some of the scrubbiest shit i ever read

He's basically trying to say that cross ups bring out some of the most broke setups you see. Its not completely scrubby what he's saying. Cross ups are dumb in a lot of ways. Have you seen the ambiguous cross ups in street fighter? Shit is dumb. It becomes just one big guessing game. No baiting involved, it's not like your opening your opponent up, it is just straight up guessing. Some superman and MMH setups I see are pretty stupid. No matter how good I am as a player I'm not gonna guess right 100% of the time.

 

[Zoidberg747]

For you to even think that the developers were like "Hey lets make this character a frame trapper to lock down an opponent to the point of not being able to escape even with ex specials, wakeups, push blocking, supermoves, interactable escapes ect, Oh! and lets leave a frame hole in the programing to allow for crossup tech".

lol. I don't think so. It doesn't surprise me at how you would even defend a flaw in the game just because you choose to exploit it and make it one of the most important features in your gameplay that allows you to win matches by basically frame trapping your opponent over and over again. Even to the point of nullifying most wakeup attempts with the flawed exploit. I'm sorry but you struck out big time here. You can try to defend a flaw in the game you have chosen to exploit, use and call "cross up tech" till you're blue in the face but your defense will always be egg shell empty.

The block button basically says '' nope, can't do that flawed move here, you're going to have to actually develop better timing and reaction speed to catch me open. Nope, you can't hit confirm me because you jumped while I was grounded and defy the blocking system by connect on me before the game program recognizes we are facing oppposit each other and has not had enough time to register the blocking direction".

Sorry, B2B is garbage for fighting games. Just because street fighter and Marvel vs Capcom have it doesn't mean its good.

When the developers originally created the ability to jump over your opponent, cross ups were obviously supposed to be in the game. Over the years most 2D fighters have had some sort of cross up feature and it is basically a FG staple, not a flaw in the system.

As for your second paragraph I have no idea how that relates, and it is kind of funny you complain about frame trapping when the block button system puts a greater emphasis on frame traps and chip damage. Not to mention that block button leads to actual unintended affects like the meterburn glitch, variable block stun, etc. So if you really want to compare the two in terms of NRS games, the block button has caused more "unintended" consequences than the back to block system has.

As for B2B being garbage for fighting games, that is pretty laughable considering most FGs use it. BlazBlue, SF, MvC, Tekken, Skullgirls, Persona, Injustice. Not that a block button is bad, it has its pros and cons too. But just because you prefer one over the other does not make one "trash".

 

[Prinz]

Worst b2b MU - Doomsday vs Sinestro.

 

[EndofGameBoss]

When a high level skilled player gets beaten by a new comer and they expect us to side with them b/c they used cheap tactics

But

No such thing as a "cheap tactic" in a fighting game. If it's in there, it's in there.

 

[RM_NINfan101]

I really dislike this thread.

I play all sorts of fighting games. I can play with a block button. I can play without. It really doesn't change much to me in how I like it, just the mechanics.

It also sounds like some people in here are biased towards anything not Mortal Kombat.

I play Street Fighter 4. Been playing it now for 3 years. While Street Fighter and games that have B2B have crossups, there are very, very few that are ambiguous. In fact, characters that do have ambiguous crossups typically get those moves nerfed later on. I.E: Hugo's body splash in Street Fighter X Tekken. Was nerfed in v.2013. Of course that's Capcom fighters, but I haven't really seen too many issues of ambigious moves outside of Capcom games. SNK games are generally pretty clean of that, and I haven't played too many Arc System Works games, but those seem to be okay as well.

In the case of Street Fighter 4, more often than not, it's character hitbox issues. NOT the blocking system in place.

If we're getting timing the aerial move to cross up on one particular side and ambiguous crossups mixed up, then that's wrong.

There are pros and cons for both. Which have been listed in this thread countless times.

MK works better with a block button, and SF works better with B2B as do other games. MK's style of teleports and mixups generally favor the block button, I just want throws to be better in MK, because then there is actually a legitimate risk of holding the block button during mixups and 50/50s.

 

[aldazo]

There is other thread that covers this topic already, so I will quote me from that thread:
"I would prefer back to block for MK but the teleport special moves worry me a little ."
"RM Hardway said:
What's wrong with a block button? What's so good about back to block? Just curious."
"For me it's because I have always my thumb on the cross plus when I see an opponent's attack I instantly press back to evade it. It takes too long for me to press and release the block button. My reactions are not too fast. Etc."
"RM Hardway said:
So your saying if you're not using the back button to block you won't react quick enough if you had to press, lets say R2 because it's a different button? Again, just curious."
"Yes, exactly. I play using a pad, not a stick. Anyway, that's me." EDIT: not just because it is a different button but because it isn't a directional button.
"I was thinking about it and I thought of a big improvement: Let your normals (and maybe specials) come out even if you are holding the block button! So you don't need to let it go (takes too much time for me, relatively speaking) before "inputing" the commands. Of course after your move animation is finished then you can not block automatically, you would have to let the button and press it again in order to do so. Any additional thoughts?"

 

[EndofGameBoss]

For you to even think that the developers were like "Hey lets make this character a frame trapper to lock down an opponent to the point of not being able to escape even with ex specials, wakeups, push blocking, supermoves, interactable escapes ect, Oh! and lets leave a frame hole in the programing to allow for crossup tech".

lol. I don't think so. It doesn't surprise me at how you would even defend a flaw in the game just because you choose to exploit it and make it one of the most important features in your gameplay that allows you to win matches by basically frame trapping your opponent over and over again. Even to the point of nullifying most wakeup attempts with the flawed exploit. I'm sorry but you struck out big time here. You can try to defend a flaw in the game you have chosen to exploit, use and call "cross up tech" till you're blue in the face but your defense will always be egg shell empty.

The block button basically says '' nope, can't do that flawed move here, you're going to have to actually develop better timing and reaction speed to catch me open. Nope, you can't hit confirm me because you jumped while I was grounded and defy the blocking system by connect on me before the game program recognizes we are facing oppposit each other and has not had enough time to register the blocking direction".

Sorry, B2B is garbage for fighting games. Just because street fighter and Marvel vs Capcom have it doesn't mean its good.

Kind of works the same for btb. I have no idea where you guys get this stuff from.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

i love all the post saying how b2b is the gold standard for fighters... while that may be true, that does not automatically make it the best system. At one point in the US, horse and carriage was the gold standard for traveling down the street... idk about all of you, but i sure am glad someone decided they could do better and invented automobiles.

just something to think about...

 

[Error]

i love all the post saying how b2b is the gold standard for fighters... while that may be true, that does not automatically make it the best system. At one point in the US, horse and carriage was the gold standard for traveling down the street... idk about all of you, but i sure am glad someone decided they could do better and invented automobiles.

just something to think about...

And now we're all dying from air pollution

There's also useless innovation

 

[TarkatanDentist]

As far as I'm concerned, this is a very 'apples and oranges' kind of question. Neither system is inherently superior - they just play differently.

As for what I personally think... as a general rule, I think button block works better in 2D fighters, and back to block works better in 3D fighters.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

And now we're all dying from air pollution

There's also useless innovation

whatever that is woulnt load on my phone, so idk what it is lol.

Anyway, my point was... something being the current gold standard should never be the argument for why others should follow that example. if it was, we would never progress.

 

[aldazo]

As for what I personally think... as a general rule, I think button block works better in 2D fighters, and back to block works better in 3D fighters.

You have to be kidding me.
-_____-

 

[Chris4387]

I don't mind the block button nor B2B. B2B games work a little different. Normals are faster, theres less blockstun, you can tech throws or attack while blocking, and crossups are a legit way to mix someone up. Not every character has overheads either and those that do have over heads tend to be very slow and ineffective for opening people up unless you condition them first. They also tend to have very good walkspeeds coupled with normals that have speed and reach so the emphasis is put on spacing and poking counter poking.. In some b2b games throws are also very important. Zoning is different, projectiles trade, and normals usually dont caue chip damage.

I've noticed in NRS games normals are alot slower frame wise (they seem like they have huge start up and recovery frames for the most part). There are more 50/50's and unreactable fast overheads. The game puts more emphasis on specials and strings rather than normals. Normals cause chip damage. It's an entirely different game with different fundamentals. Comparing it to other fighters is pointless, its a different animal. I can adapt and enjoy either game.

 

[TarkatanDentist]

You have to be kidding me.
-_____-

You're welcome to disagree with me (as I said, apples and oranges), but I fail to see why what I said is ridiculous. :/

 

[Prinz]

And now we're all dying from air pollution

There's also useless innovation

The amount of boobs in these is amazing.

 

[RelentlessOhio]

I don't mind the block button nor B2B. B2B games work a little different. Normals are faster, theres less blockstun, you can tech throws or attack while blocking, and crossups are a legit way to mix someone up. Not every character has overheads either and those that do have over heads tend to be very slow and ineffective for opening people up unless you condition them first. They also tend to have very good walkspeeds coupled with normals that have speed and reach so the emphasis is put on spacing and poking counter poking.. In some b2b games throws are also very important. Zoning is different, projectiles trade, and normals usually dont caue chip damage.

I've noticed in NRS games normals are alot slower frame wise (they seem like they have huge start up and recovery frames for the most part). There are more 50/50's and unreactable fast overheads. The game puts more emphasis on specials and strings rather than normals. Normals cause chip damage. It's an entirely different game with different fundamentals. Comparing it to other fighters is pointless, its a different animal. I can adapt and enjoy either game.

This pretty much. Assuming the pace is faster in MKX than MK9 (NRS confirmed it), matches are going to be a million miles an hour, as if they weren't already.

 

[Chris4387]

You're welcome to disagree with me (as I said, apples and oranges), but I fail to see why what I said is ridiculous. :/

I think having B2B in a 3d game would be counter intuitive, but Tekken manages to pull it off and seems to be the most played 3d fighting game so I don't see the issue. 3D fighters have really complex movement with side stepping and all the other ways to move around, having a dedicated block button would probably seem easier or more intuitive, but then again I don't know, I don't play 3d fighters.

 

[Chris4387]

This pretty much. Assuming the pace is faster in MKX than MK9 (NRS confirmed it), matches are going to be a million miles an hour, as if they weren't already.

Exactly. Despite seeming easier to stop offense with a block button, MK promotes offense and aggression, it punishes turtles that don't let go of block, they'll keep getting chipped to death. You don't need crossups in an MK game, you have all the tools to open people up on the ground. That coupled with the insane specials, 50/50s. super fast overheads, special cancellable strings, and now running and being able to toss shit at people it's clear that this game will be very offensive and chaotic. To hell with the neutral game spacing out your normals and playing footsies and the cat and mouse game.

 

[Protagonist_1]

I think what people don't understand is whether or not a game is b2b or not, the game's mechanics effect gameplay the most.

For example, injustice had a very slow walk speed, limited range for normals, long dashes, and weak anti airs. This made the neutral game more difficult. This isn't a result of the b2b though, just how the game was developed. If you were to base b2b off of injustice, then that's terrible to base off of b2b games in general.

In SF4, the game highly emphasizes a traditional footsie game. The goal is to stay on your feet, and not end up on you ass, otherwise your going to get punished hard. It makes it so that every poke, whiff punish, bait, and step forward counts. Most characters have a good walk speed, short dashes, and good anti-airs to discourage jumping. Yet again, this is based off how the developers made the game, it's not entirely based off of b2b.

In mk9, you could counter poke as well, and it had dash cancelling (but tekken also has dash cancelling and it's b2b). It also has high chip on normals and strong anti-airs. All of these are not byproducts of having a block button though, just how the developers made the game.

In tekken, if you stand still, your character automatically blocks, which means you don't have to keep holding back like many previously complained about. The movement is more complex, because you can cancel a dash into pretty much anything. Movement is more execution heavy, but once a player gets it down, getting to point A to point B is not a problem.

What I just mentioned aren't necessarily tied to b2b or a block button. It's tied to game mechanics period. If injustice had better anti-airs, faster walkspeed, and better normals, I highly doubt many would have the same view of b2b as they do now. The same that criticize mk9 about having the input bug and block stun as a byproduct of a block button.

I will say, cross ups are indeed bullshit though haha.

 

[aldazo]

...but I fail to see why what I said is ridiculous. :/

not ridiculous but sure it sound weird to me; 3d fighting games usually have 3d enviroments so you could sidestep your opponent, even walk full circle around them, and in those cases you need a block button. But that's me , I think Tekken use b2b and is a 3d game so I can understand what you're talking.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

What you fail to realize is that in a b2b game if you hold down back and the person is attacking you ur char will automatically block. In MK9 u can just crouch or walk back and whiff punish a move but u can not do that on b2b bc ur char will block.

i don't fail to realize anything

if you hold down back and push a button..... you'll attack. if they're in proximity sure you'll stop for a slight second... but nothing to keep you from continuing to walk back, or counter/whiff punish.

I play KI all the time..... it isn't hard.

It is just a fact that back to block allows you to counter poke faster.

 

[ShadowBeatz]

And now we're all dying from air pollution

No we're not. It's all a big natural process of the earth. Human's had nothing to do with it.

 

[aldazo]

I've noticed in NRS games normals are alot slower frame wise (they seem like they have huge start up and recovery frames for the most part)...The game puts more emphasis on specials and strings rather than normals. Normals cause chip damage. It's an entirely different game with different fundamentals...its a different animal. I can adapt and enjoy either game.

You nailed it but if it is true you can adapt to both type of games I think (at least for me and brothers) it is easy to adapt to b2b than to block button, so if they want to attract more casual players, specially with that big online engaging mode they will announce, then b2b could be a good opportunity.

..To hell with the neutral game spacing out your normals and playing footsies and the cat and mouse game.

You mean to hell with SF4? Because I can agree with that, but can't speak too loud cause there are a ton of igau players that came from that game, so yeah I approve that .

 

[Error]

No we're not. It's all a big natural process of the earth. Human's had nothing to do with it.

Spoiler

It's really just dinosaurs getting their revenge.

 

[Chris4387]

snip

Exactly. I think the majority of people here are referring to injustice when they think back to block.

You nailed it but if it is true you can adapt to both type of games I think (at least for me and brothers) it is easy to adapt to b2b than to block button, so if they want to attract more casual players, specially with that big online engaging mode they will announce, then b2b could be a good opportunity.

You mean to hell with SF4? Because I can agree with that, but can't speak too loud cause there are a ton of igau players that came from that game, so yeah I approve that .

Haha glad you got the joke. Yea I was referring to SF4 or even KI since people are hell bent on comparing them to MK and claiming one is better than the other. They are just different and cannot be compared. Doesn't mean one game is superior, just means what works for one game doesn't work for the other. As for blocking, b2b comes naturally to me after playing so many b2b games, but I did play MK9 and did fine with a block button although it took me at least a month or two to get used to the mechanic. Almost forgot, MK is very casual friendly IMO and I like that, it is accessible. It doesn't create a pseudo skill gap based on execution like other games. Hell even SF4 is considered casual to some compared to the older games.