Big props to to the major Kitana players at Evo!

[DrDogg]

LOL...ok where do I begin. First off, there were more Kitana players who were making a splash before Evo than Jax players...bad example. I love how you insinuate that since allegedly NO ONE was punishing cutter or d+1 that somehow explains how 16-bit placing 5th and Konqrr doing as well as he did. Oh wait...weren't you the one who stated you weren't "impressed" by evo's showing of Kitana's? Yeah, tell that to 16-bit and his 5th place...
And dude, guess what? When this better competition shows up, most Kitana players will probably adapt to D+1 and cutter getting punished...it's all in the gamer and his instincts. I don't even remember what your base argument was for this topic...that's she's not top tier? It's all in a matter of opinion...I'm gonna go watch 16bit beat OnlineTony in the top 8 at Evo again....

And absolutely nothing against OnlineTony....he is a spectacular player.

You clearly forgot what you were talking about... >_>

My Jax reference was only in response to you saying top players can adapt quickly. You said top players can adapt quickly, I gave you an example of how that's difficult in MK9. It had NOTHING to do with how much Jax has been played before Evo...

The rest of your post is completely irrelevant because I said I wasn't impressed by hardly anyone at Evo. I didn't single out the Kitana players saying they shouldn't have placed where they did, only that their placement doesn't indicate Kitana is top tier.

Online Tony didn't know Kitana either but Evo wasn't the first time I've played good comp. Nothing I'm saying is based on playing guys that have never fought Kitana before. Nobody punishing cutter is true though.

f+2,1 is very viable as a whiff punish. I do it online lol. It's amazing how you talk so much theory fighter about other stuff but f+2,1 is too slow.

Nothing I've said is theory fighter...

f+2,1 is 18 frames. In what version of MK9 is that not considered slow for whiff punishment?

Also, just for reference, one of my local players had a few matches against Konqrr at Evo and beat him pretty soundly. Nothing against Konqrr, I think he's one of the top Kitana players in the US, but he lost to someone who plays my Kitana all the time. It shows that if you know how to fight Kitana, she's not a difficult match compared to the top tier characters.

 

[VIDA]

We're never gonna get into the videos are we.

 

[Konqrr]

Nothing against Konqrr, I think he's one of the top Kitana players in the US, but he lost to someone who plays my Kitana all the time. It shows that if you know how to fight Kitana, she's not a difficult match compared to the top tier characters.

Morty is amazing with Sonya, but aside from the 1 or 2 times I played Chef's Sonya in casuals at ReveLAtions, I've never played against Sonya. I really didn't know the matchup at all. I didn't know that after blocking a d4, I had to guess whether he was going to do the low punches or the throw. I didn't know Sonya had armor on her enhanced moves or how to deal with her wakeup attacks, etc... I was basically learning it as I played him. Morty invited me to his room to play more, and I wanted to, but I couldn't make it ;_;

Unfortunately, I only have good matchup experience against Raiden, Kung Lao, Noob, and Cyrax. Ironically, I don't know the mirror match at all, but I've been like that in every game. I never know how to beat my own character LOL Once (or if ever) we get a decent training mode, I can learn the matchups as I refuse to learn them online... I am not even at 10% online.

 

[Pretty Boy]

Dr. Dogg, I wasn't trying to come off as rude or sassy or anything. I guess I just view things a little differently lol . I think we can all agree she is an awesome character that can contend! I really want to see this Scorpion player vs Konqrr everyone keeps talking about...

 

[Earthbound360]

Another way I see it is tier placement is based on matchups and tournament use/success right?

Kitana is place #4 in the matchups rankings (topped by the hats and Reptile). She saw very common use in Evo and cracked top 8. Konqrr was in the tops of revelations as well. You could argue that "top doesn't mean anything, she didn't win," but as far as I know, Raiden and Kung Lao haven't gotten that far either.

 

[DrDogg]

We're never gonna get into the videos are we.

I think it'd be best to just create a new thread for that since this one is more like a general Evo-turned Kitana tier thread. Not to mention something like match breakdowns deserve their own thread anyway.

Another way I see it is tier placement is based on matchups and tournament use/success right?

Kitana is place #4 in the matchups rankings (topped by the hats and Reptile). She saw very common use in Evo and cracked top 8. Konqrr was in the tops of revelations as well. You could argue that "top doesn't mean anything, she didn't win," but as far as I know, Raiden and Kung Lao haven't gotten that far either.

Kung Lao won Evo and PDP... the two biggest MK tournaments to date as far as I know. Raiden players also got top 8 in both of those tournaments.

 

[16 Bit]

f+2,1 is 18 frames. In what version of MK9 is that not considered slow for whiff punishment?

Don't know what to tell you, it's fast enough for me.

To be clear, what I'm talking about is a scenario like you hit d+3 and you predict they're going to try to d+1 out of your follow up. So you back up and punish the whiff with f+2,1.

 

[Slips]

I think I saw Dr. Dogg whiff punish a d+4 in one of those vids on the front page lol

 

[DrDogg]

Don't know what to tell you, it's fast enough for me.

To be clear, what I'm talking about is a scenario like you hit d+3 and you predict they're going to try to d+1 out of your follow up. So you back up and punish the whiff with f+2,1.

If I anticipate the whiffed attack, then sure I agree with you. I was referring to reactionary whiff punishment. Like if I'm at mid-screen and someone whiffs a normal. Unless I'm preemptive with the f+2,1, it's either blocked, or in some cases, I get poked out of it.

 

[RWDY Nori]

I really want to see this Scorpion player vs Konqrr everyone keeps talking about...

I just saw this and had to reply. TTT is one of the oldest games ever and it's amazing that I'm either talking to people that are very young or living on another planet. Slips is a TTT legend. Not top player, LEGEND. Just like JOP is. And "Jim", the Mileena player who should have beat PL but he choked, is Devil Jim, arguably the best Julia player in the country. You kids and your lack of knowing who people are.......it disgusts me.

 

[DrDogg]

I just saw this and had to reply. TTT is one of the oldest games ever and it's amazing that I'm either talking to people that are very young or living on another planet. Slips is a TTT legend. Not top player, LEGEND. Just like JOP is. And "Jim", the Mileena player who should have beat PL but he choked, is Devil Jim, arguably the best Julia player in the country. You kids and your lack of knowing who people are.......it disgusts me.

This is the MK community Nori. A lot of MK players either are not competitive in ANY fighting game, or ONLY play MK. This is the reason why they don't know about the TTT legends from a decade ago. As soon as I found out Slips was playing Scorpion, I knew it would be good. I wish more STL players got into MK.

On a side note, this is also the reason why they don't understand why Kitana isn't top tier. They look at how the game is being played now, instead of how it should be played (and hopefully will be played once people have the proper matchup experience).

 

[16 Bit]

Ironically, Slips agrees Kitana is top tier. In fact he saw how ridiculous she was before I did.

 

[Slips]

Kitana is either bottom of the top tier or top of the upper mid. She's like the opposite of Cage. Cage has a glaring weakness of getting in, but once he's in, he's so ridiculous that it offsets his lack of mobility.

Kitana has a glaring weakness of not having that great of offense. Meaning mix ups and pressure. But her zoning, pokes and runaway is so silly that it doesn't matter.

I agree with Dr. Dogg that a lot of people don't know how to play against Kitana, but I also think Kitana players aren't playing her at her max potential either.

Nori, lol thanks for the plug. Kids these days are spoiled with all the info that they are given and the scrub comeback features and mashing moves to get out of guessing games that are in nearly every fighting games these days. God bless MK9 for rewarding offense and NRS for not knowing anything about their game so we gotta figure it out. Haha (That or they are smart in not telling us shit.)

 

[DrDogg]

I think she's right below the current top tier.

I'm changing the way I play her, but I look at the top 8 of Summer Jam and see how Kitana fares against people who know the matchup, and people who don't.

You see Crazy Dominican's first two matches, where his opponents are just eating Cutter left and right, or simply blocking Cutter standing. This gives CD everything he needs to keep the pressure up and dominate. Then as soon as he plays his brother, followed by the rematch with Warda, you see his opponents ducking Cutter and CD having significant problems with this anti-strat... so much so that he lost both sets after going undefeated all the way to winner's finals.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

Kitana is definitely top tier, no 2 ways about it lol. Her biggest 'weakness' is the lack of good upclose strings, but who needs em when u can D1 cutter all day long. Even if the player knows the matchup its still a complete bitch to win.

For example, say you know the KL, Reptile, Raiden /whatever matchup at least you have the freedom of movement. Against Kitana YOU AINT MOVING just seas and seas of fans flying over ur head, and if you are moving its so carefully and its basically baby steps.

 

[Dark Kobra]

Good to see a fellow Brit in here Foxy How have your games been going sir??? Seen a few of your vids man, very impressive fella!!!

 

[VIDA]

Then as soon as he plays his brother, followed by the rematch with Warda, you see his opponents ducking Cutter and CD having significant problems with this anti-strat... so much so that he lost both sets after going undefeated all the way to winner's finals.

Yeah I just saw the borthers match. I cant say ducking d1#cutter had much effect. Yeah obviously getting things done isnt super easy anymore, but u adjust and dont abuse cutter or d1#Cutter, and thats exactly what he did. Those matches were tight as shit, and those two play each other IMMENSELY. I just think things worked out for CDjr, either one can beat the other any given day, not cause CDjr knows to duck Cutter. It was tightly contested set and things just werent as easy, really doesnt say a whole lot about the char.

That being said, Im surprised how Michelangelo let cutter hit after the 2,1 in the block string EVERY SINGLE TIME, but oh well. Im wondering if 21Cutter is a better block string than f4,1 Cutter off jps?

Note: My keyboard is acting up which is why the string notation is weird lol.

 

[Creepy00]

Removed

 

[DrDogg]

Kitana is definitely top tier, no 2 ways about it lol. Her biggest 'weakness' is the lack of good upclose strings, but who needs em when u can D1 cutter all day long. Even if the player knows the matchup its still a complete bitch to win.

For example, say you know the KL, Reptile, Raiden /whatever matchup at least you have the freedom of movement. Against Kitana YOU AINT MOVING just seas and seas of fans flying over ur head, and if you are moving its so carefully and its basically baby steps.

d+1~Cutter all day long? You do realize you can interrupt between a blocked d+1~Cutter right? Even if the opponent doesn't interrupt, you can still be punished after the last hit of Cutter. In the event the opponent doesn't interrupt or punish, Kitana is still at disadvantage.

As far as freedom of movement goes. You can't release block against Reptile, Raiden or Kung Lao. If you do, you may eat Dash, Superman or iDive Kick. Granted, these are all risky compared to iAF, but the opponent still has to take "baby steps" when approaching. I have an easier time getting through Kitana iAF spam than I do getting in on Kabal or Reptile.

Yeah I just saw the borthers match. I cant say ducking d1#cutter had much effect. Yeah obviously getting things done isnt super easy anymore, but u adjust and dont abuse cutter or d1#Cutter, and thats exactly what he did. Those matches were tight as shit, and those two play each other IMMENSELY. I just think things worked out for CDjr, either one can beat the other any given day, not cause CDjr knows to duck Cutter. It was tightly contested set and things just werent as easy, really doesnt say a whole lot about the char.

That being said, Im surprised how Michelangelo let cutter hit after the 2,1 in the block string EVERY SINGLE TIME, but oh well. Im wondering if 21Cutter is a better block string than f4,1 Cutter off jps?

Note: My keyboard is acting up which is why the string notation is weird lol.

My point is that CD had comparatively easy wins when people weren't ducking Cutter. He was dominating before that point, but as soon as he played people who knew the matchup, he had a significantly harder time. Even if he had won, my point still stands.