Big props to to the major Kitana players at Evo!

[VIDA]

If a game is balanced well enough, anyone can win, even with a low tier character. However, that doesn't invalidate the tier list. It's extremely rare to see people win with low tier characters, especially in games that aren't all that balanced. When Stryker wins a tournament with decent competition, let me know.

That said, Kitana is not top tier:

1. The "teleport" is unsafe in many situations and even the EX isn't invincible during start-up.

2. Which leads to nothing on hit, and Kitana takes damage if you use the EX version to go through an attack.

3. I'll agree with this, but smart players don't jump against Kitana. Just like you don't jump against Kabal, Kung Lao or many other characters. This negates her air dominance.

I have to disagree somwhat with the sentiments of thse three points:

1. Even tho SB is not always safe to throw out, its simply another "transporter" that has to be used cautiously at the right time like literally every other char, except for Raiden and Rain (Freddy and Smoke too if you wanna look at their short range transporters, but their beside the point really). So its not exactly anymore unsafe than an other normal attacking transporter...in fact its at least safe on block. Again like d1 it has a time and a place, just cause its not unfairly OP doesnt make it/her less than top tier. EX not being invincible in startup mayb a problem when she is cornered (altho I havent had trouble getting her out of there with it, at least as a wakeup) but she has other tools for that scenario anyway, like EX cutter and EX pretty leg. EX SB is more used to blow through projectiles when being outzoned fullscreen. Startup invincibility isnt much use for that there, and perhaps make it too easy anyway. You want that its timed to blow through a projectile at a bit of a distance.

2. How does it lead to nothing on hit? She gets the 7-8% or whatever it is and closes the distance. The char being hit down may lead to a recovery/wakeup type situation but at least she has a chance to follow up and get things done inside...now she's just gotten out of a fullscreen war she may have been losing. Besides it's something for full screen zoners to be wary of. NW for example cant just throwout any of his zoning tools b/c he doesnt know if a fan or SB is coming (if placed just right SB can even go over his arrow and hit him as he does it...Ive seen it happen). As for Ex SB, so what if it takes dmg, she's in and many closing-the-distance EX moves take dmg as well. Correct me if Im worng but does even EX superman have complete invincibility? Should players even feel entitled to such things anwyays?

3. Im sorry this one I have big problem with. Perhaps its a semantics issue even, but how is it that forcing chars to not jump and stay grounded negate dominance? The ability to instill that type of fear in any1 is a form of dominance, or at the very least intimidation, which is very important in any form of competition in itself. Doesnt the fact that KL's unfair spin HIGHLY discourage cross ups against him "negate" dominance in this context? Well I def wouldnt put it that way, if anything completely preventing a major form of offense and pressure so easily and automatically is not only extremely useful, it is very dominant. Takes away an opp's handy tool and forces them to use other tools, now with a shorter selection.

To beat a dead horse just a lil more (sorry), when a canine pack leader growls to one of the pack when he goes after his bone, and the other dog backs down, even if you dont want to use the term dominant, is that not hugely effective for the pack leader? To be able to take ownership of found bones with a simple growl and threat of physical violence? Are you not DrDogg, u should not know this already?

So how does limiting a char's ability to jump around period--which is pretty big in this game--negate anything positive on her end? Its HUGE. You cant fuck around with her aerially speaking, its def something, and def effective in and of itself.

4. I know I didnt quote this but w/e. Every char has their safe and unsafe moves, having some safe moves doesnt make that char unpunishable or immune to mistakes, or to simply getting caught. A char makes a mistake against the Edenian princess, that char will eat 40-50% or more for their trouble, or have to at the very least use up two bars, which is big in this game. Besides, after a break, that char makes one other mistake before getting breaker bars again and he/she will eat the dmg this time. Even then, Kitana has the most unbreakable combo potential in this game bar none BY FAR...how could breakers possibly be that much of an issue to even bring up when discussing the effectiveness of her kombo-ability? Its not like she has as much trouble getting combo starters off as many would like to say. She catches a not to hard to get AF, or catches a long reaching f2, or semi long reaching 2 with 11 frames, and that char's going for a ride.

5. Unfortunately its no secret she is lacking in the mixup dept. Would like to see less startup frames for her fake out or maybe even mack b3 a low and comboable off of some string.

6. She's 10,000 years old.

 

[Konqrr]

i dont know how anyone can say kitana has "several mixups". she has almost no mix ups. a couple things off f4 hit high then low, but its slow as hell. you want to completely negate the 4 button on your kitana opponents controller? everytime you see her leg start a roundhouse, do an uppercut. you have about plenty of time between when that high kick turns into a sweep or an overhead. one of kitanas biggest weaknesses is that her entire lineup is high. she is desperate for something that hits other than high. i fear that when folks begin to learn that you can lock kitana down completely by simply ducking she will lose the psyche edge of the whirring fans.

YES! This is why I rarely if ever use f4 "mixups" outside of a jps!

The extent of Kitana's mixups are the height she throws an air fan LOL

 

[16 Bit]

f+4,1 and f+4,b+4 mixup is fine. I've never seen anyone that actually blocks it on reaction. Like a bunch of mixups in this game, people talk about how easy it is to fuzzy guard or react to then don't in reality.

 

[16 Bit]

You can't duck against Kitana because of f+2,1 and if they're low blocking you get to throw and cross them up all day.

 

[VIDA]

If fake out wasnt so slow she'd be decent enough at mixups. b1 would become a true 50/50, it covers great distance and is a special mid. Also chars would have to reflexively block high then low on f41~fake out, instead just uppercutting on fakeout's startup lol. f4 is a horrendous starter unless its a jp or the char is delaying wakeup like Konqrr has said.

 

[Slips]

I'm sorry but I gotta chime in here. She has some of the best zoning in the game. When you have a character that is not safe to jump around against, even at full screen, and give that same character moves on the ground like; an unpunishable half life launcher that out-ranges nearly every character's basic moves; best footsie poke in the game with d1 if they somehow get closer...you have a recipe for a top tier character.

This same character is one of the hardest punisher's in the game, (which is ridiculous as most character's have to use high risk moves to even attempt to get in on her) has two of the best run away moves in the game with square wave and iaf, and unbreakable combo's that do well over 30%.

But lets cry about her not having a overhead/low launcher mix-up lol

Oh yea and that cutter move is pretty good.

 

[Konqrr]

^^ I agree with Slips.

I have never once complained about her needing a 50/50 mixup. I've known since February when I was a balance tester that she is a heavy footsie character and I knew from then that I would main her.

My friends tell me fighting her is like fighting Dhalsim lol

 

[DrDogg]

This is in reference to your 50% punish line. Punishing low hat on block with D1 is easy, anyone can do it. Now compare that to 50% on a D1 from Kitana? You can just mash out the D1 on reaction block to the low hat, but to get 50% off of Kitty's D1, you have to react terribly quickly with a good combo move.

If Brady can punish low hat with a Spin, he won't have too much of an issue punishing d+1 with a Spin. Not to mention I've seen my local competition punish d+1 with Kung Lao's x-ray on reaction multiple times. It's not hard...

*snip*

1. Kitana doesn't really have good wake-up options. If the opponent ducks, there isn't much she can do. Many opponents can interrupt wake-up SB with a d+1 into juggle in the corner. Keep in mind, I never said SB was bad, just that it doesn't make her top tier.

2. It hits and that's it. Kung Lao's Spin leads to a juggle, Cutter leads to a safe jump.

3. It's not safe to jump against most characters in the game. You can't jump against Jax, but does that make him top tier? It certainly helps, but it's something just about every character in the game has. Again, it's good for Kitana, but I don't think it makes her top tier. A good opponent should not be caught by many air fans.

4. I said her combo damage is good. I agreed with this point. I just don't think it's enough to make her top tier.

f+4,1 and f+4,b+4 mixup is fine. I've never seen anyone that actually blocks it on reaction. Like a bunch of mixups in this game, people talk about how easy it is to fuzzy guard or react to then don't in reality.

Get better competition.

You can't duck against Kitana because of f+2,1 and if they're low blocking you get to throw and cross them up all day.

After a blocked f+2,1, Kitana is not at advantage. Against an opponent with a 6 frame d+1, she can't even cross-up jump after a blocked f+2,1 because she'll be hit during the start-up frames of the jump.

Again... get better comp.

I'm sorry but I gotta chime in here. She has some of the best zoning in the game. When you have a character that is not safe to jump around against, even at full screen, and give that same character moves on the ground like; an unpunishable half life launcher that out-ranges nearly every character's basic moves; best footsie poke in the game with d1 if they somehow get closer...you have a recipe for a top tier character.

This same character is one of the hardest punisher's in the game, (which is ridiculous as most character's have to use high risk moves to even attempt to get in on her) has two of the best run away moves in the game with square wave and iaf, and unbreakable combo's that do well over 30%.

But lets cry about her not having a overhead/low launcher mix-up lol

Oh yea and that cutter move is pretty good.

I don't have an issue with Kitana lacking a mixup game. I don't think she's top tier, but I don't think she's bad either. She's easily a solid mid-tier and probably upper-mid, just under the top tier characters.

That said, f+2,1 is great, but it's slow. The good players in AZ poke me out of it all the time. Even when I time it to whiff punish, I still get poked out of it.

 

[16 Bit]

Nobody said she was at advantage after blocked f+2,1.

Where's the good comp? Because I went to Evo and placed top 8. Your chutzpah is unbelievable.

 

[Pretty Boy]

Thank you 16-bit, I almost mentioned you and the fact that you were top 8 at evo. Again, Dogg, this is my point. Kitana (the character) has plenty of options, superb combos, and intimidation factors and creative "mix-ups" to contend with any of the other "characters". It's all about who is controlling these characters, hence my emphasis on it's the ability of the figher. You keep mentioning "find better competition". This is kind of a funny statement to make. I have fought several insanely good Noob Saiboits, Milleena's, Kabals, and yes your precious Kung Lao. I've had many victories over high level Kung Lao's with my Kitana. It can be done. Have you watched the footage of 16-bit and/or Konqrr at Evo? Many times the D1 was blocked and the F2+1 was blocked and or ducked and they handled the situation quite well. She's obviously not OP'ed or GOD tier but to say she isn't top tier is, well, stupid. I like to think of her as princess tier...can't touch her!

 

[Earthbound360]

If your opponent can spin you out of D1, then you were obviously using it wrong (range wise). Not trying to sound like a smartass or anything, but "better competetition" applies to the Kitty player too... stop using D1 (or hell, square boost and any other move) at the wrong time. You're getting punished because you didn't use it smartly.

And 50% off an X ray doesn't scare me enough to say that D1 isnt one of the best moves. That's 3 bars wasted for something that Kitana can pump out for no meter at all. Have fun getting comboed up to 50% by Kitty herself without a breaker now.

Ad to add to the discussion, Kitty's mixup gmae is admittedly pretty bad, but if they gave her great zoning, the best combos, AND mixups, well that just wouldn't make any sense.

F4 is a viable mixup ONLY off of a jump in punch since it enforces a stand block, and keeps the opponent in guard stun until she can get the roundhouse out. From there you have the option of the sweep or the overhead, which does lead to a full combo.

B1 is an overhead, but it doesn't lead to any combo. At least it doesn't miss on crouching opponents.

With fake out kick, she gets a slightly better mixup game, but not by much due to its startup frames, and the fact that no popup is provided. You can react to this on block. But theoretically, if the opponent is anticipating the overhead of F4, 1 or even B1, 2, then you can replace the overhead with fake out kick which hits low. Sometimes I like to do (jump in punch) F4, 1, Fake out kick (cancel before the second hit of 1) to make a combo string that hits mid-high-mid-low.

Before you get on my case, again, I say Kitty's mixups are pretty bad. I'll just say it for you right quick that yes, fake out is slow enough to react too. Meh, still a top tier with her other tools.

 

[Konqrr]

That said, f+2,1 is great, but it's slow. The good players in AZ poke me out of it all the time. Even when I time it to whiff punish, I still get poked out of it.

I hit moves like Mileena/Sonya d4 with f2~Cutter or f2~EX Fan all the time on reaction, even Noob's up shadow I blow up on reaction with huge punishes. If you get poked out of your f21 all the time, then maybe your AZ crew needs better Kitana comp ^_^

Yes, after f21 Kitana is at a disadvantage, but it sets up a shitload of things and tells you a lot about your opponents habits which you can then use f21 to setup.

I like to think of her as princess tier...can't touch her!

No, she is Tiara Tier... isn't that like a hat?

 

[Dark Kobra]

I assume Tiara tier is quite high???

 

[Phantom]

Tiara's are more exclusive so - tiara > hats .... right?

I mean anyone can easily obtain a hat.

*Looks at Raiden's Legacy episode*

 

[DrDogg]

A lot of you guys are focusing on one thing or another instead of looking at what I'm saying as a whole.

I never said d+1 was a terrible attack. In fact, I said it was great in certain situations. I spam d+1 and d+1~Cutter whenever I can, but I use them sparingly against solid comp. Obviously, when I started to get punished I altered my game plan to get more effective use out of d+1 and d+1~Cutter.

My main argument against all of you blind "top tier" fans is that Kitana has tools, but they are not as good as the tools the other top tier characters have. Did I say Kitana was bad? No. Did I say Kitana was bottom tier? No. I simply said she's mid or upper-mid, possibly right under the top tier.

As far as finding better comp, I wasn't impressed at Evo. So to say 16-bit got top 8, while it's a HUGE accomplishment, it doesn't impress me in the least in terms of this discussion. There was a HUGE lack of Kitana knowledge at Evo.

 

[Konqrr]

There was a HUGE lack of Kitana knowledge at Evo.

Yep. Almost nobody knew the matchup.

 

[Pretty Boy]

LOL. In no way am I trying to be rude or a "blind top tier Kitana fan", but you were unimpressed with what you saw at Evo?? I'm a huge FAN (hehe) of Konqrr and 16-bit's Kitana and yes, there may have been little knowledge on the matchup with Kitana, but they still tore up some major ass. Quite frankly, top gamers can adjust rather quickly to matchups they aren't used to. It's not like she has some huge secret that only Kitana users are aware of...all her tricks are out of the bag and people know about them. I'm not saying Kitana is the BEST fighter in the game, which is ironic considering I am "a blind, top tier, Kitana fan), but she can certainly compete and beat Kung Lao, Raiden, and whomever is considered top tier. With my eyes wide open I'm still claiming that she is top tier.

 

[Dark Kobra]

Everyone is going to have different perceptions of which characters are 'Top Tier'. You will have the obvious suspects like, Raiden, Nightwolf, Kung Lao, Johnny Cage etc that I'm sure most are going to agree with.....

For me it is down to how the individual sees the character.... Some would see Baraka as a high tier.... Others believe that even Sheeva can be good.

I remember Brady referring to Kitana as like a 'God' status character.... But again it is his opinion....

Any character may not have the best set of moves, but in the hands of an expert, the character can seem god like.

I'm not saying that Kit is top tier, upper tier, mid tier or anything like that, as I don't really pay much attention to it...... Just that different people will have different ideas on what makes a character 'Top' and 'Upper' tier.

 

[VIDA]

Can we all just agree she's more than viable and move on? I do my best to avoid tier lists period b/c they ruin my own genuine perceptions and preconceptions of a char's abilities. Its why i hate reading reviews of movies Im gonna go watch anyway. Putting subjective things on a scale/rank list really never make sense anyways, its fundamentally self-contradicting anywa. It does spark discussion into those things tho admittedly.



Now back to the the suggestion sum1 made earlier about dissecting EVO match videos? Any more matches come up on the archived streams or YT?

 

[Kaysick]

Big props to Osu 16 Bit. I remember talking to you in Galloping Ghosts, that was a lot of fun. That battery fan did you wonders.

 

[DrDogg]

Quite frankly, top gamers can adjust rather quickly to matchups they aren't used to. It's not like she has some huge secret that only Kitana users are aware of...all her tricks are out of the bag and people know about them.

All kinds of wrong here. Did you see the Jax player tearing it up at Evo? Do you know why he had a relatively easy time with a lot of the big names? Because none of them knew the Jax match-up. In MK, the characters have such unique abilities, and the blocking/block stun is so backward compared to other fighters, it's extremely difficult to win matches against skilled competition using a character you are unfamiliar with.

I talked to OnlineTony after his loss to the Jax player. He didn't know ANYTHING about Jax, even after the match. When I explained what Jax can do and how to defend against it, he was surprised, but understood why he lost.

Very few players know Kitana's tricks. Even now, most people STILL don't know how to fight against Kitana. How many times did you see opponents ducking against Kitana at Evo? Punishing Cutter? Punishing d+1? Didn't happen...

 

[Pretty Boy]

All kinds of wrong here. Did you see the Jax player tearing it up at Evo? Do you know why he had a relatively easy time with a lot of the big names? Because none of them knew the Jax match-up. In MK, the characters have such unique abilities, and the blocking/block stun is so backward compared to other fighters, it's extremely difficult to win matches against skilled competition using a character you are unfamiliar with.

I talked to OnlineTony after his loss to the Jax player. He didn't know ANYTHING about Jax, even after the match. When I explained what Jax can do and how to defend against it, he was surprised, but understood why he lost.

Very few players know Kitana's tricks. Even now, most people STILL don't know how to fight against Kitana. How many times did you see opponents ducking against Kitana at Evo? Punishing Cutter? Punishing d+1? Didn't happen...

LOL...ok where do I begin. First off, there were more Kitana players who were making a splash before Evo than Jax players...bad example. I love how you insinuate that since allegedly NO ONE was punishing cutter or d+1 that somehow explains how 16-bit placing 5th and Konqrr doing as well as he did. Oh wait...weren't you the one who stated you weren't "impressed" by evo's showing of Kitana's? Yeah, tell that to 16-bit and his 5th place...
And dude, guess what? When this better competition shows up, most Kitana players will probably adapt to D+1 and cutter getting punished...it's all in the gamer and his instincts. I don't even remember what your base argument was for this topic...that's she's not top tier? It's all in a matter of opinion...I'm gonna go watch 16bit beat OnlineTony in the top 8 at Evo again....

And absolutely nothing against OnlineTony....he is a spectacular player.

 

[16 Bit]

Online Tony didn't know Kitana either but Evo wasn't the first time I've played good comp. Nothing I'm saying is based on playing guys that have never fought Kitana before. Nobody punishing cutter is true though.

f+2,1 is very viable as a whiff punish. I do it online lol. It's amazing how you talk so much theory fighter about other stuff but f+2,1 is too slow.

 

[VIDA]

JOP vs Konqrr

Osu vs TEABAG

Konqrr vs Osu

All taken from the semi finals thread on the front page.

Osu vs Online/Offline Tony 9taken from ealier in this thread)

Osu vs Alex valle

Still looking for Konqrr/Slips, any sort of video link. Please dissect away.

 

[VIDA]

Just realized Konqrr/Osu is just the match they had cancelled. Any1 got the actual match they used for the tourney yet?