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Match-up Discussion Batgirl MUs Post 1.06

RM Truth

RM Truth

Unintentional Tier Whore Follow me @TruthRM
I know Batgirl doesn't have a lot of stream appearances, but I've picked her up as my new main so hopefully you can see her every week on stream at Ghost Battle Series.
 
Pan1cMode

Pan1cMode

AUS FGC represent!
Rip Torn said:
Batman 4.5-5.5
One of her worst mu's. she can't AA j2 at all. Trait let's batman get in and then it's time for j2's. Batgirl takes all the risk on bat uppercut reversals and yolo smoke bombs. I think it's a solid 4-6.

Black Adam 6-4
Actually I think BA has the slight edge. His keep-away game is really annoying for a character like BG. If BG gets too close he can dive kick away to the other side and play more keep away. Batgirl again has to make great reads while BA gets to stay safe. 4.5-5.5 BA.

Green Arrow 6-4
I think this is actually even or in GA's favor. Fire arrows are a problem for BG. She has to make smoke bomb reads while GA reloads. Sky alert can save GA from getting hit by smoke bomb and starts a combo if it hits. BG wants to get in but GA has good keep away so it's very uphill for BG. 4.5-5.5.

Martian Manhunter 5-5
This has got to be in MMH favor. lets just compare the two characters: MMH has a safe overhead teleport that leads to a full combo for no meter spent. Batgirl's teleport is totally unsafe, hits mid, only leads to a combo if you have meter to spend. Not to mention his randomly crosses up and has a massive hitbox that BG can't dash out of. MMH has better zoning. MMH has better anti air and more range on normals especially with trait. MM has a better b3/f3. His d1 is faster than hers. His wake ups are harder to blow up. He's basically better at everything. 4-6

Superman 6-4
I agree with RiBBz22 5-5

WW, HG, Sinestro and Flash can be troublesome but I'm not sure on those so I agree with 5-5. Oh, and I think she beats Shazam 6-4.

Basically I think she has 5 bad match ups. Unfortunately, she loses to top tier characters because she is so unsafe and she has to get in to do anything. Her slow bad range normals really hurt her up-close game against the d1 special characters like Black Adam and Aquaman.
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I disagree with your BA number. His keep away game is ineffective against batgirl. She gets to dash up and jump in for free and she can't be anti-aired. She gets a ji3 and the vortex begins.

We vastly out damage arrow and his oki game is mediocre and not much of a threat. She has an exceptional dash with which to close the gap and little problem cornering green arrow. We can interrupt d1~arrow with df2 into vortex.

Just because his teleport is safe, doesn't mean he's instantly a better character. If we MB b3 it we get vortex. In the corner we vastly out damage him. With meter or an interactable bounce it's a 3 touch kill. His projectiles are too slow to effectively zone her. He has to worry about placing an orb in front of himself to blow up teleport before he can start zoning which allows you free movement forward. His wakeups suck and are easy to blow up. Just d3 or MB b/f3 through them.

astronout said:
Batgirl does NOT beat Green Lantern.
(MU exp Blackula, Kenetic Ororchi)

Batman beats Batgirl 6-4
(MU exp Forever King, Darth Arma)

Batgirl does NOT beat Joker
(MU exp Qwark)

Batgirl does NOT beat Lex Luthor
(MU exp Rev0lver)

Batgirl does NOT beat Black Adam
(MU exp Rico Suave)

Batgirl does NOT beat Superman
(MU exp KDZ)

I highly doubt Batgirl beats Raven but not completely sure

And I am pretty confident in calling Wonder Woman vs Batgirl 6-4 in WW's favor
(MU exp Foxy Grandpa)

and Aquaman vs Batgirl is a solid 7-3 in his favor
(MU exp Tom Brady)

also, Doomsday may have the advantage vs batgirl
(MU exp EMPR Whiteboi)
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I thought it was pretty much agreed that BG beats GL. He can't keep her out effectively, he can't reset her with his oki shenanigans, she out damages him in the corner and 3 touch kills with vortex.

Against Lex Luthor, he pretty much has to old everything BG does. We have a multi-hitting projectile that covers the sky and a multi-hitting cartwheel. We out footsie him easily with b1 our damage is much better and we have little problem with his oki shenanigans.

I've outlined why I think the BA MU is in her favour already.

The reason I think she beats superman is her ability to basically get in for free. SM lacks the tools to effectively keep her out. His lasers have too slow start up and are widely telegraphed, she can't be anti-aired and f2 range is just smaller than b1 range. Basically she gets to play her game while restricting SM from playing his.

I don't have a lot of WW experience, but I certainly don't think she looses to her. What is it that WW does that restricts BG from playing her game?

Also,the DD MU was one which I was originally convinced was DDs favour. I hated it. With practise I've grown into it and I realise it's not that bad, certainly not as bad as BM, so I have it as 5-5.

Really, the AM number at this point is just semantics. I'm not gonna use her in this MU and neither will any competitive player.


The downplaying has to end people =D
 
RM Truth

RM Truth

Unintentional Tier Whore Follow me @TruthRM
Pan1cMode said:
I disagree with your BA number. His keep away game is ineffective against batgirl. She gets to dash up and jump in for free and she can't be anti-aired. She gets a ji3 and the vortex begins.

We vastly out damage arrow and his oki game is mediocre and not much of a threat. She has an exceptional dash with which to close the gap and little problem cornering green arrow. We can interrupt d1~arrow with df2 into vortex.

Just because his teleport is safe, doesn't mean he's instantly a better character. If we MB b3 it we get vortex. In the corner we vastly out damage him. With meter or an interactable bounce it's a 3 touch kill. His projectiles are too slow to effectively zone her. He has to worry about placing an orb in front of himself to blow up teleport before he can start zoning which allows you free movement forward. His wakeups suck and are easy to blow up. Just d3 or MB b/f3 through them.


I thought it was pretty much agreed that BG beats GL. He can't keep her out effectively, he can't reset her with his oki shenanigans, she out damages him in the corner and 3 touch kills with vortex.

Against Lex Luthor, he pretty much has to old everything BG does. We have a multi-hitting projectile that covers the sky and a multi-hitting cartwheel. We out footsie him easily with b1 our damage is much better and we have little problem with his oki shenanigans.

I've outlined why I think the BA MU is in her favour already.

The reason I think she beats superman is her ability to basically get in for free. SM lacks the tools to effectively keep her out. His lasers have too slow start up and are widely telegraphed, she can't be anti-aired and f2 range is just smaller than b1 range. Basically she gets to play her game while restricting SM from playing his.

I don't have a lot of WW experience, but I certainly don't think she looses to her. What is it that WW does that restricts BG from playing her game?

Also,the DD MU was one which I was originally convinced was DDs favour. I hated it. With practise I've grown into it and I realise it's not that bad, certainly not as bad as BM, so I have it as 5-5.

Really, the AM number at this point is just semantics. I'm not gonna use her in this MU and neither will any competitive player.


The downplaying has to end people =D
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For GA, you might even be able to D2 xx bola since its 9 frames. I don't know how big the gap is though.
 
Rip Torn

Rip Torn

ALL I HAVE IS THE GREEN.
Pan1cMode said:
I disagree with your BA number. His keep away game is ineffective against batgirl. She gets to dash up and jump in for free and she can't be anti-aired. She gets a ji3 and the vortex begins.
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She will totally get anti aired out of j3. BA's D2 is pretty good. You would have to do an early j3 to not get aa'd and that doesn't give you advantage needed for her 50/50.

Pan1cMode said:
We vastly out damage arrow and his oki game is mediocre and not much of a threat. She has an exceptional dash with which to close the gap and little problem cornering green arrow. We can interrupt d1~arrow with df2 into vortex.
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Arrow doesn't need to play oki. He wants to run away. df2 is risky and can get blown up. I'd be willing to say it's 5-5 though because he cannot run forever and his up close game is a little bad when cornered.

Pan1cMode said:
Just because his teleport is safe, doesn't mean he's instantly a better character. If we MB b3 it we get vortex. In the corner we vastly out damage him. With meter or an interactable bounce it's a 3 touch kill. His projectiles are too slow to effectively zone her. He has to worry about placing an orb in front of himself to blow up teleport before he can start zoning which allows you free movement forward. His wakeups suck and are easy to blow up. Just d3 or MB b/f3 through them.
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When he throws out an orb, you never know where he is going to put it, so you could dash right into an mb orb and get blown up. When he has trait, BG can't even get close to him. She spends a high percentage of the match just waiting for mb orbs or trait to go away. MMH builds tons of meter while batgirl can't really build any. I'm not just looking at their tools (which MMH clearly has better tools) but also looking at the flow of the match and how it plays out.
 
Kinetic Demise

Kinetic Demise

Noob
astronout said:
Batgirl does NOT beat Green Lantern.
(MU exp Blackula, Kenetic Ororchi)

Batman beats Batgirl 6-4
(MU exp Forever King, Darth Arma)

Batgirl does NOT beat Joker
(MU exp Qwark)

Batgirl does NOT beat Lex Luthor
(MU exp Rev0lver)

Batgirl does NOT beat Black Adam
(MU exp Rico Suave)

Batgirl does NOT beat Superman
(MU exp KDZ)

I highly doubt Batgirl beats Raven but not completely sure

And I am pretty confident in calling Wonder Woman vs Batgirl 6-4 in WW's favor
(MU exp Foxy Grandpa)

and Aquaman vs Batgirl is a solid 7-3 in his favor
(MU exp Tom Brady)

also, Doomsday may have the advantage vs batgirl
(MU exp EMPR Whiteboi)
Click to expand...
It's Kinetic Orochi. grrr! lol Oh and I agree. I see batgirl vs supes as 5-5.
 
rev0lver

rev0lver

Come On Die Young
Pan1cMode said:
Against Lex Luthor, he pretty much has to old everything BG does. We have a multi-hitting projectile that covers the sky and a multi-hitting cartwheel. We out footsie him easily with b1 our damage is much better and we have little problem with his oki shenanigans
Click to expand...
I disagree. I think it's even. Unless I'm in range of the hits I can set stuff up with trait up. If I have a probe or trait up I can punish wakeup cartwheel, which makes oki just a guessing game. And Lex is one of the only (or only? idk) characters that can use interactables well vs her.
 
Pan1cMode

Pan1cMode

AUS FGC represent!
Rip Torn said:
She will totally get anti aired out of j3. BA's D2 is pretty good. You would have to do an early j3 to not get aa'd and that doesn't give you advantage needed for her 50/50.



Arrow doesn't need to play oki. He wants to run away. df2 is risky and can get blown up. I'd be willing to say it's 5-5 though because he cannot run forever and his up close game is a little bad when cornered.



When he throws out an orb, you never know where he is going to put it, so you could dash right into an mb orb and get blown up. When he has trait, BG can't even get close to him. She spends a high percentage of the match just waiting for mb orbs or trait to go away. MMH builds tons of meter while batgirl can't really build any. I'm not just looking at their tools (which MMH clearly has better tools) but also looking at the flow of the match and how it plays out.
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BA's d2 is garbage and can be baited and punished with smoke bomb. No BA should ever try and d2 you.

Arrow needs to play Oki because he gets no damage otherwise. His fire arrows do jack all damage and chip. If you read him doing a backwards arrow jump, you can smoke bomb and catch him out easily. Same on wakeup.

I suppose we'll agree to disagree about the MMH MU. I need more experience in it anyways. Also, I'm pretty sure we can smoke bomb his teleport in reaction and catch him out of it. (I need to do more testing on that though).
 
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RM Truth

RM Truth

Unintentional Tier Whore Follow me @TruthRM
Pan1cMode said:
BA's d2 is garbage and can be baited and punished with smoke bomb. No BA should ever try and d2 you.

Arrow needs to play Oki because he gets no damage otherwise. His fire arrows do jack all damage and chip. If you read him doing a backwards arrow jump, you can smoke bomb and catch him out easily. Same on wakeup.

I suppose we'll agree to disagree about the MMH MU. I need more experience in it anyways. Also, I'm pretty sure we can smoke bomb his teleport in reaction and catch him out of it. (I need to do more testing on that though).
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Why did I get quoted? I was talking about how you can D2 xx bola between GA's D1 xx arrow for a meterless vortex.
 
EMPEROR_THEO

EMPEROR_THEO

I only use characters with wakeup scoops.
Batgirl and Aquaman is 6-4 Aquaman. When Batgirl blocks trident rush, Aquaman is forced to respect a cartwheel mixup, and Batgirl can play mindgames with him from there. Batgirl's flying bat being a single hit launcher negates Aquaman's FTD, Scoop, D2, and F2 at point blank range. Batgirl's cartwheel ender is excellent for wall carrying against Aquaman. When Batgirl gets Aquaman to the corner, Aquaman has to respect flying bat and high-cartwheel since they will both launch him for heavy damage which his trait negates. Batgirl's teleport is good for catching FTD's on whiff. Aquaman cannot D2 Batgirl willy-nilly on a jumpin because he is forced to respect teleport, even if it is a risk on Batgirl's part.

Just because Batgirl doesn't play this matchup like all her others does not mean its 7-3 Aquaman. I've ran this matchup several times (and still do) with @SonicFox5000. At one point we thought it was 5-5 but we both knew that was pushing it. :p 6-4 Aquaman.
 
astronout

astronout

see you at the top.
GGA Jeremiah said:
I'm curious if any Batgirl's have high level Bane experience. If so what are your thoughts? Would love to hear them.
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I play bipolar regularly and I think he and I agree that although bane's knockdown games isn't as strong as it is against other characters, it's certainly isn't a situation where Bane is completely limited in what he can do. I'm certainly not comfortable in giving this MU a number as I need even more experience than I do presently.
 
GGA Jeremiah

GGA Jeremiah

Sheeva
astronout said:
I play bipolar regularly and I think he and I agree that although bane's knockdown games isn't as strong as it is against other characters, it's certainly isn't a situation where Bane is completely limited in what he can do. I'm certainly not comfortable in giving this MU a number as I need even more experience than I do presently.
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Cool. I looked at the entire cast and thought about the Bane MU hard. Just from looking at tools, I came up with the idea that Batgirl might be best to try against Bane. So I am 1 week into Batgirl. I have a long road ahead of me, but it should be interesting.
 
F

Fred Marvel

It's actually Freddy Marvel
astronout said:
read kinetic orochi's post on this page. that's one of the top GL players telling you otherwise.
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lol i know how orochi feels about it but if im not mistaken he also said the sinestro matchup was even.....
not to bash him he's a great player but just because youre good with the character doesnt mean your belief of the matchup is right. its 6-4 babs
 
Rip Torn

Rip Torn

ALL I HAVE IS THE GREEN.
Pan1cMode said:
BA's d2 is garbage and can be baited and punished with smoke bomb. No BA should ever try and d2 you.
Click to expand...
It's not great but at the right distance it works pretty good. I could be wrong about this mu but every time I play a BA it's the same story of not being able to catch him. Once he gets a life lead it gets really bad for her.
 
Rip Torn

Rip Torn

ALL I HAVE IS THE GREEN.
Pan1cMode said:
I'm pretty sure we can smoke bomb his teleport in reaction and catch him out of it. (I need to do more testing on that though).
Click to expand...
I think whoever teleports first wins. If they do it at the same time it can trade.

Edit: Actually there are all these weird intervals where she wins or it whiffs or he wins if she does it on reaction. Depends how fast you do it. It never trades. I was thinking of doomsday.
 
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Orochi

Orochi

Scorpion Scrub
Fred Marvel said:
lol i know how orochi feels about it but if im not mistaken he also said the sinestro matchup was even.....
not to bash him he's a great player but just because youre good with the character doesnt mean your belief of the matchup is right. its 6-4 babs
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What I said was the match-up felt even when sinestro had no trait up, this was pre-patch when his b12 was not a mid and he could be combo punished for 40+%. I never had a problem getting in on sinestro offline and up close it's easy to open him up and keep him close he could lose a life bar pretty fast. With trait it was a whole other story and def a 6-4. Now post-patch it's def worse since he actually can play footsies now and start his vortex off a safe string.

Batgirl, I feel like GL can compete. If GL gains a life lead he can turtle quite well, what's batgirl going to do chip you out with that slow projectile? She has to go in and this is where b1 and lift turn Godlike her OH and low starters are not as fast, you can also bait a teleport and that's a big punish. If she gains a lifelead she can zone you but her zoning is pretty weak compared to GL's other MUs. I still have yet to be beaten consistently by a batgirl player usually I end up winning sets vs them. If you feel like GL loses you're welcome to play me so we can run the match-up I need the practice.

Come to think about it online it's 6-4 she has the advantage cause of delay she can get away with stuff, sometimes I can't even punish teleport lol. Some of GL's super even match-up like DS, Batgirl, Superman turn bad online, and bad MUs like Martian/Zod/Zatanna turn even worse.
 
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RiBBz22

RiBBz22

TYM's Confirmed Prophet/Time-Traveler
GGA Jeremiah said:
Cool. I looked at the entire cast and thought about the Bane MU hard. Just from looking at tools, I came up with the idea that Batgirl might be best to try against Bane. So I am 1 week into Batgirl. I have a long road ahead of me, but it should be interesting.
Click to expand...
Her wakeup invincibility on cartwheel can get her out of some of Bane's BS oki shenanigans...Teleport can avoid charge pretty easily as long as Bane isn't right on top of you, and puts you pretty far away so you can chip away and zone, forcing him to come in and make something happen. That in itself gives BG an edge IMO since the Bane player will have to work their way in more often than the BG player. The flow of this MU feels like definite BG advantage to me when I play it against good Banes. She has some overall good ways to stay away from Bane when he has trait, and at the same time as some other good waits to bait and approach Bane when he is vulnerable. I mean 1+ vortex can literally last through an entire buff period into the cooldown, so one hit on Bane even when Venom is active for Batgirl can still end up hurting a lot.
 
Doombawkz

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
RiBBz22 said:
Her wakeup invincibility on cartwheel can get her out of some of Bane's BS oki shenanigans...Teleport can avoid charge pretty easily as long as Bane isn't right on top of you, and puts you pretty far away so you can chip away and zone, forcing him to come in and make something happen. That in itself gives BG an edge IMO since the Bane player will have to work their way in more often than the BG player. The flow of this MU feels like definite BG advantage to me when I play it against good Banes. She has some overall good ways to stay away from Bane when he has trait, and at the same time as some other good waits to bait and approach Bane when he is vulnerable. I mean 1+ vortex can literally last through an entire buff period into the cooldown, so one hit on Bane even when Venom is active for Batgirl can still end up hurting a lot.
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I don't think so, namely because its not fully invincible. We can poke you out of it, and lord forbid we get you in the corner your cartwheel literally becomes useless. Theres actually a lot of ways to beat it on wake-up. Smokebomb too, by the same merit if you use it.
Don't know many Banes that bother to charge Batgirl unless she's in blockstun. If she teleports too soon, she eats the charge and oki ala MMH. But I do know some do.

Why do we have to put in more work? If we get a lead you aren't getting back in, Bane has more possibility to sit on a 45% health lead than Batgirl has taking it off of him, that's just a matter of Batgirl's slower long-range normal versus Bane's faster huge reaching ones like d.1 and d.2 which are our common momentum stoppers.
 
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