Match-up Discussion Batgirl MUs Post 1.06

[Pan1cMode]

Sinestro beats her.

Sinestro was another difficult MU. Not sure I'd say he beats her, but you had to think more and change the way you play slightly.

I think she definitely loses to Aquaman and Batman, but MMH, DD and about half the cast are 5/5s, the rest are 6/4s except Cyborg who she 7/3s.

I personally think that DD and MMH were worse than BM. She really struggled in the neutral against them.

BM was annoying because he full combo punished the overhead and his bats made approaching annoying.

I hate the AM MU, but sonic says it's even and I can kinda see where he's coming from even if I don't appreciate it.

 

[Youphemism]

I personally think that DD and MMH were worse than BM. She really struggled in the neutral against them.

BM was annoying because he full combo punished the overhead and his bats made approaching annoying.

I hate the AM MU, but sonic says it's even and I can kinda see where he's coming from even if I don't appreciate it.

Nah I could deal with MMH easier than Batman, although both were annoying to get in on. Batman having the combination of trait bats and batarangs made it harder to get on him imo because he didn't necessarily have to spend the meter to have effective space control against her whereas Martian's meterless orbs were never really that much of a threat except for oki. Batman being able to punish the overhead so easily and so well is another reason I think she loses to him.
DD is hard and I always go back and forth between whether she loses or wins or goes even with him but I think if you approach the matchup a little like the Bane matchup it's not as bad. You just need to find a way to land a string into BF3 about halfway through his trait time and you can deal with it for the most part and that's one less annoying thing to deal with. She actually doesn't even need to compete with him in neutral if she just runs away, I mean she has the mobility for it.
I don't see why Aquaman doesn't beat her. It's no 3-7 or anything but his trait makes things 10x more annoying and of course he also punishes the overhead too. He has at least slightly better damage except for in the corner and it's hard for her to touch him at all because of his range and his godlike D2. Unless there's something I'm missing...could you give some insight into why you think it could be even?

 

[Schuyler]

Her worst MUs are AM, MMH, DD and BM. Even then I think those ones are even. She goes even or 6/4 against almost the entire cast with only potentially Ares being a 7/3.

I will forever think aquaman beats her.

 

[Rip Torn]

How could BM be a bad MU if she basically has knockdown 50/50s due to his horrible wakeup options? The way I see it, her already good oki game is amazing against batman

He still has an invincible wakeup so it's not a free 50/50 every time. It's probably a 5-5 MU.

 

[Youphemism]

How could BM be a bad MU if she basically has knockdown 50/50s due to his horrible wakeup options? The way I see it, her already good oki game is amazing against batman

Because a bad matchup isn't entirely decided on the knockdown game...

 

[Pan1cMode]

How could BM be a bad MU if she basically has knockdown 50/50s due to his horrible wakeup options? The way I see it, her already good oki game is amazing against batman

Why would batgirl ever go for a knockdown when she could end in restand into vortex? The matchup was challenging because batman's trait made approaching difficult, he easily punished overhead starter for full combo and damage output was similar-ish with batman still having a vortex.

Essentially he dominated her in the neutral and she had to make some hard reads to get in. Granted, as soon as she was in that was it, mixup city better guess right, but getting the first hit was harder for batgirl than batman. Also, slide was fully invincible so it's not like she got free pressure on wakeup. She still had to make a read.

I still think the matchup was even but I can understand why people think it's bad.

AM is probably her worst matchup then doomsday, then batman then Martian.

 

[Scott The Scot]

Pan1c, in the OP you've wrote loosing MU's instead of losing MU's.

 

[Crusty]

Obviously not, but I'm trying to weigh the advantages of each character........



Because combos that knock down result in higher damage for nearly the same outcome. Yes slide is still invincible, but it is ridiculously unsafe.

Batman might dominate the neutral game, but she still has a lot of tools to get in that other characters don't. Examples are: one of the best forward dashes in the game, jump-ins into 50/50s (batman has very bad AAs), and a good b1 range.

On the note of an unsafe OH, isn't that still taking no advantage as disadvantage? Besides, if you want to play it safer, you can do b2d3. If they do block the OH, go ahead and cartwheel because none of your options are safe at that point. If they DONT block the overhead, then it's an easy confirm into the redemption special, which is 1 bar for like a ~30% vortex. It's not like batgirl ever DOESNT have meter...

I don't play Batgirl (anymore at least)but for her to take your life she doesn't have to knock you down because she essentially kills you in two combos.

She and BM have vortexes. Problem here is that she gets if off of everything. Bats are the number one issue in this mu for batgirl. She has to approach him ultimately. Unlike most characters Batman can punish her with a full combo especially meterlessly for good damage. He can actually punish her -7 OH with his 6 frame stand 1.

She really doesn't have to knock you down because even if the bola scales damage she can reset you, take 40% of your life or more and still trap you if you guess wrong.

Example in the corner after she has already trapped you, guess wrong once you lose potentially half your life and she could still trap you if she already hasn't bolaed you mid combo.

This MU is without a doubt 5-5. She goes even with characters that have good neutral whereas she completely hinders characters whose rush down pales in comparisons to hers and completely dominated pure zoners as well.

 

[Rip Torn]

Lmfao everyone is forgetting she has an OH option select for a -6 frame cancellable string that can be 1 bar into the same vortex situation. Even if b2d3 into any special is still unsafe, I can tell you using multivariable calculus that the odds of blocking both the OH in b2 and the mixup in cartwheel is 25%. And if batman DOESNT block any of the mixups, he's still put into a shitty knockdown or restand vortex situation

All I'm tryna say is it's 5-5 and the advantages of each character definitely match

If Batman doesn't block the cartwheel mixup, he doesn't lose too much life. If he does manage to block it, he can take a ton of Batgirl's life or put her in a vortex situation.

And what is the option select? As far as I know, there is no option select for her overhead, there are just options.

 

[Crusty]

A general question:

If a move is -6 and the punish is 6 frames, will it punish? I can't test this myself right now

Just verified, no it doesn't. It has to be 1 frame lower

 

[Youphemism]

Obviously not, but I'm trying to weigh the advantages of each character........

But you only brought up the knockdown game, you didn't compare everything. You asked me how it couldn't be a bad mu solely because Batman doesn't have the best wakeups which is only looking at one aspect.

Because combos that knock down result in higher damage for nearly the same outcome. Yes slide is still invincible, but it is ridiculously unsafe.

Batman might dominate the neutral game, but she still has a lot of tools to get in that other characters don't. Examples are: one of the best forward dashes in the game, jump-ins into 50/50s (batman has very bad AAs), and a good b1 range.

On the note of an unsafe OH, isn't that still taking no advantage as disadvantage? Besides, if you want to play it safer, you can do b2d3. If they do block the OH, go ahead and cartwheel because none of your options are safe at that point. If they DONT block the overhead, then it's an easy confirm into the redemption special, which is 1 bar for like a ~30% vortex. It's not like batgirl ever DOESNT have meter...

You're doing that thing where you downplay a character's tools by giving a "but" after mentioning the good (and important) part of the tool.

"Yes slide is still invincible, but it is ridiculously unsafe".....but it's still invincible, sorry there's reads involved on knockdown. If she's going for a hit you can slide through it and you will avoid the hit regardless of safety on block.

"Batman might dominate the neutral game, but she still has a lot of tools to get in that other characters don't.".....but Batman still dominates the neutral game. That means those tools of Batgirls you're kinda upplaying don't mean shit when you're controlling the space she needs to use them. And those tools she has to get in are for the most part hugely unsafe on block.

And why spend a bar on B2D3 when you can get meterless damage from B2U3? Just because there's meter there doesn't mean we have to use it, clashes are still a thing. Plus she needs meter to convert off of ex teleport, counterzone with ex batarangs and convert from flying bat. Never mind vortex in the corner too.

Lmfao everyone is forgetting she has an OH option select for a -6 frame cancellable string that can be 1 bar into the same vortex situation. Even if b2d3 into any special is still unsafe, I can tell you using multivariable calculus that the odds of blocking both the OH in b2 and the mixup in cartwheel is 25%. And if batman DOESNT block any of the mixups, he's still put into a shitty knockdown or restand vortex situation

You can use multivariable calculus if you want but that doesn't take into account the cartwheel option select where he doesn't even need to guess which version of cartwheel to block. He can backdash the high and low and get a full punish on the overhead every time.

Exactly @CrustyClown, the overhead b2d3 isn't even punishable. It's not my fault you didnt know that in the mu lmao

We know it's not punishable. Look at it this way, in the same sense that Batgirl has options to get in others don't have Batman has punish options most others don't have which is why it's easier for Batman in the matchup than most.

 

[SneakyTortoise]

I still don't buy that batgirl loses to batman

 

[ATP2014]

Yea, the pure power of the vortex makes it hard for me to believe she lost to anyone in the cast. But whatevs, Injustice 2 boyz.

 

[Youphemism]

I still don't buy that batgirl loses to batman

Between him having better space control/control in neutral, being able to punish her overhead option and/or making her have to spend more meter (both bad things) it's not as easy for her as touch him and die. Blake also agrees he wins.

Yea, the pure power of the vortex makes it hard for me to believe she lost to anyone in the cast. But whatevs, Injustice 2 boyz.

That's a problem though, she's not just "oh shit auto-vortex I lose" because she actually has to open you up/get in first to get that vortex going. Although she does have some ways of getting in most of them are full combo punishable. She lost to AM, DD and BM only imo, she went even with most of the rest of the cast, had some 6-4s and only 7-3'd Cyborg. Look at Shotgun Jacqui, she has completely safe 50/50s. Do you think she has no losing matchups? (Don't answer that, of course she does)

 

[Fellow_Swordsman]

Lol I always assumed Batgirl had no losing MU's since I considered her a broken character with a 50/50 armor breaking cart wheel (which I think also had invincibility on wakeup) and a vortex that could easily kill if you guessed wrong like 3 times.

 

[Youphemism]

Lol I always assumed Batgirl had no losing MU's since I considered her a broken character with a 50/50 armor breaking cart wheel (which I think also had invincibility on wakeup) and a vortex that could easily kill if you guessed wrong like 3 times.

Pretty much the opinion of the rest of TYM who, coincidentally, don't play her. And the cartwheel had very little invincibility on wakeup, everyone could stuff it with something like a D1. It also wasn't a guess since you could option select it.

 

[Scott The Scot]

Pretty much the opinion of the rest of TYM who, coincidentally, don't play her. And the cartwheel had very little invincibility on wakeup, everyone could stuff it with something like a D1. It also wasn't a guess since you could option select it.

 

[Youphemism]

Raven can option select it, she's just better off attempting to block and punish though...

 

[Scott The Scot]

Raven can option select it, she's just better off attempting to block and punish though...

You and Declan told me she cannot option select it. But I know if I say that you'll deny it'll and it'll cause an argument so I'm gonan duck outta this discussion right now lmao.

edit: Or was it that she couldn't punish it the remaining option if she OS'd it? I can't remember.

edit 2: Fuck it I don't care I'm going to bed lol

 

[B. Shazzy]

Pan1c, in the OP you've wrote loosing MU's instead of losing MU's.

thats how you spell it in australia


and batgirl loses to martian

 

[Youphemism]

You and Declan told me she cannot option select it. But I know if I say that you'll deny it'll and it'll cause an argument so I'm gonan duck outta this discussion right now lmao.

edit: Or was it that she couldn't punish it the remaining option if she OS'd it? I can't remember.

edit 2: Fuck it I don't care I'm going to bed lol

Of course I'll deny it because I never said that and you can't assert that I did just because you said so. I know I didn't day that because everyone can option select it because the option select involves backdash invinciblity which everyone has. What I said was that it's not worth it for Raven because she can't punish the options she backdashes.