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Match-up Discussion Bane Matchup Discussion

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
That's not a punish. You can jump between d1 and BP - it's a 50/50 whether you'll do that or anti-air. Same situation I listed earlier for the knockdown. Both options are full combo punishable (j2 the grab or parry the anti-air) - it's another 50/50 with a payoff matrix in favor of KF.

There's no easy/not easy way to get out of the vortex. It's a pure 50/50, and each rep deals at least 33% which means 3-touch kill. It has an expected value of about 60%, which is more than Bane can dish out without blowing all of his resources. The payoff matrix still favors her, at least possibly until the patch.
You can jump inbetween it if you think we are going to do it, but that's a choice you have to make while mounting your offence. While you're thinking about it, we're already BPing you outright because it'll beat most any follow-up pressure you have. You've got a 33/33/33 chance of being right, and that's going off of d.1. We can also do it off of d.2 which will prevent you from doing anything jump-based. Out of slide, you have to make a much bigger decision than we do. The result is a knockdown, which is the best possible scenario for us. The best you get out of it is possibly a 34% combo or a 28% reset which we can just nor care about.

All of our resources? We do about that much damage for 1 bar at level 2, and we have resets too which end up doing about 40%. The damage matrix isn't in the favour of KF since every knockdown is essentially another 20% into another 20% into more damage. You can basically expect to be taking around 71% for a 1 bar reset at level 2. Even if it didn't, she's not able to open us up for that 6 seconds of debuff so we can just toss level 3 in there at will and chill back.
 

ApocaLips

Kombatant
Sigh...

If you want to keep ignoring the information given to you, that's fine. The combo into vortex is higher than 28/34%, and you can't deny the possibility of explosive results. If you hand-wave away the vortex, of course it looks good on paper. But that's not how it really works.

You also can't call something a "punish" when it's a 50% option at best and, if it fails, gives your opponent a full combo into a situation that can possibly kill you. Let's not forget that each time you throw away time with Bane, your venom drains.

I really can't continue a discussion if you're going to ignore the cards on the table. It was annoying that some KF players were ignoring Bane's options and strengths, but you're doing the exact same thing to an even greater degree. Not helpful.
 

Eyedentical

That's it? That's all you got?
Sigh...

If you want to keep ignoring the information given to you, that's fine. The combo into vortex is higher than 28/34%, and you can't deny the possibility of explosive results. If you hand-wave away the vortex, of course it looks good on paper. But that's not how it really works.

You also can't call something a "punish" when it's a 50% option at best and, if it fails, gives your opponent a full combo into a situation that can possibly kill you. Let's not forget that each time you throw away time with Bane, your venom drains.

I really can't continue a discussion if you're going to ignore the cards on the table. It was annoying that some KF players were ignoring Bane's options and strengths, but you're doing the exact same thing to an even greater degree. Not helpful.
You guys both make valid points you just need to stop trying to one up the other. People on the outside looking in will view it as a joke...
 

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
Sigh...

If you want to keep ignoring the information given to you, that's fine. The combo into vortex is higher than 28/34%, and you can't deny the possibility of explosive results. If you hand-wave away the vortex, of course it looks good on paper. But that's not how it really works.

You also can't call something a "punish" when it's a 50% option at best and, if it fails, gives your opponent a full combo into a situation that can possibly kill you. Let's not forget that each time you throw away time with Bane, your venom drains.

I really can't continue a discussion if you're going to ignore the cards on the table. It was annoying that some KF players were ignoring Bane's options and strengths, but you're doing the exact same thing to an even greater degree. Not helpful.
You are doing the same. Both of us are ignoring the other's 50/50 but Bane does more damage and gets more payoff from his than kF does from hers.

Also don't take it so seriously. We aren't talking numbers anymore, we both agree its a 6-4 her favour. For now we are just splitting hairs, its the foreground for more constructive discussion.
 

Kiss the Missile

Red Messiah
A lot of matchups that straight up make me want to castrate myself. I picked up Doomsday solely for the matches I hate playing as Bane. Supes, Lantern, Cyborg, Zoning Batmen, Harley, Grundy, Arrow & fellow men of Doom are all on the Big Rock Body's hitlist when my Venom Boy can't take the heat.

I said it once already, I think the most fun you can possibly have in this game is with a Bane mirror.
 

Rickyraws

This mean you don't like me?
Hello fellow Bane players. It's looking like we're gonna be getting some buffs next patch eh? Well patch not withstanding, what do you think will not change MU wise in terms of what Bane has available? For instance, are there any bad Bane MUs that while won't be as bad by default, still remain the same? If so, who what and when? Thank you fellow Bane users. Us Bane users need to stick together.
 

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
Hello fellow Bane players. It's looking like we're gonna be getting some buffs next patch eh? Well patch not withstanding, what do you think will not change MU wise in terms of what Bane has available? For instance, are there any bad Bane MUs that while won't be as bad by default, still remain the same? If so, who what and when? Thank you fellow Bane users. Us Bane users need to stick together.
All of them? I mean HG will get better and I firmly believe that Flash will no longer be a 2-8 along with BA.
Getting rid of those is good enough for me. Depending on how safe they make f.2.d.3 and any other buffs I'll tell you when I know.
 

haketh

Champion
I really can't continue a discussion if you're going to ignore the cards on the table. It was annoying that some KF players were ignoring Bane's options and strengths, but you're doing the exact same thing to an even greater degree. Not helpful.
Why do you think me and a lot of other Bane players don't post in here much.
 

chief713

Vertebral Subluxationist
Superman
· The Meter Burn version of the Flying Punch now has 2 hits of armor.

So, he gets out of our oki for 1 bar now? :(
 

shaowebb

Get your guns on. Sheriff is back.
Any opinion on what MB stinger does if anything to Bane's tools now that Green Arrow can MB it on block for advantage? We still dont know if the second hit of it is still going to be a high but if it'll be a slide up low high with block advantage thats mad unsafe on whif. Just curious what moves if any you feel this new GA tool may be useful against.

Doombawkz
 

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
Any opinion on what MB stinger does if anything to Bane's tools now that Green Arrow can MB it on block for advantage? We still dont know if the second hit of it is still going to be a high but if it'll be a slide up low high with block advantage thats mad unsafe on whif. Just curious what moves if any you feel this new GA tool may be useful against.

Doombawkz
He can burn a meter to put himself slightly further away, I don't see how that changes the MU at all since the only time it'd matter that theres a 2nd hit is when we are trampling his corpse
 
D

Deleted member 5032

Guest
How do you guys approach the Doomsday MU? I can keep him locked down with frame traps when his trait is up, for the most part, but I'm still having a lot of issues. I know this is supposed to be in Bane's favor, so what should I be doing?
 

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
How do you guys approach the Doomsday MU? I can keep him locked down with frame traps when his trait is up, for the most part, but I'm still having a lot of issues. I know this is supposed to be in Bane's favor, so what should I be doing?
Can you block d.1xxES and do you press buttons when he is traited? If you can't block the basic stuff, you probably won't win. Just wait for him to burn his meter trying to pressure you, and then when he is a bit lower you take advantage and start clipping him hard. He doesn't have wake-up invuln once he starts moving, so end your combos with DP or VU to give you the space you need to react to anything (About max d.1 range) and don't be afraid to try command grabbing against him once he starts charging around, his Venom isn't grab immune so he'll run right into your clutches. Its a really back and forth match, but just when he hits his trait you need to make the call.

If he has more than 2 meters, wait it out and let him burn himself down.
If he has less than 2 meters, go level 3 and abuse him.

DD has good meter building, almost as good as Banes, but his damage is sub-par when he doesn't have a chance to use it. Taking out the trait early when he is low on bars means that he won't have an advantage to press on you when your in cooldown because his trait won't be up and he won't have the resource to keep pressuring you.

The most important part is you play this one defensively, make him come to you when he has the meter advantage and only push back once he has spent his fill. I'd recommend going level 3 for trait busting only in this one, and level 2 for everything else as you'll still outdamage him and manage to prevent him from having the maximum opportunity to capitalize. DD is a pressure monster, but how well he can keep the train rolling is entirely dependent on what he has left in the tank. Keep your guard up, and work on your responses. 2 hits of armor will get him in on projectiles, but it won't keep him safe from your armor clicking off of his. You should be able to maintain a healthy meter lead, so the clashes should be in your favour. When closing out the match, keep the idea of going level 3 to trait bust and keeping level 1 for general purposes so if you manage a winning offensive clash you won't lose out on the clash damage and you'll be able to keep your lead because, at worst, he is going to catch you on a level 1 cooldown (barring if he clashes your trait buster).

Be reactive, be prompt, and focus on having positioning on wake-up rather than just raw damage. Work on the timings of stuffing his wake-ups and you should find yourself with a life lead eventually, something that is not easy for DD to break if you know how to keep him from opening you up.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
vs doomsday lvl 1 is enough.

making him come to you only leads into him recharging trait for free.

going on lvl 3 is suicide just because mb venom now like 4-5% chip per block and shake does like 7-8%, he doesnt even need to hit you.

only go lvl 3 when he has no meter and you know you can turtle him out for a few seconds
 

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
vs doomsday lvl 1 is enough.

making him come to you only leads into him recharging trait for free.

going on lvl 3 is suicide just because mb venom now like 4-5% chip per block and shake does like 7-8%, he doesnt even need to hit you.

only go lvl 3 when he has no meter and you know you can turtle him out for a few seconds
Going level 2 will net you in the 50% area of damage for low bars, while level 1 will only somewhat keep you ahead taking chip into account. Not to mention with its short cooldown, its pretty efficient.

If he waits for trait, we get our level 3 back and we still have a life lead. Its only beneficial if he lets us do so.

Going on level 3 prevents him from having trait to go in on you with, and the life-lead you pick up (considering your doing his full-combo damage in the matter of one MB'd special with time to spare) means you can afford some chip, ESPECIALLY if he lacks abundance of meter (which is why I recommend doing it when he is at 2 or less). You still have access to push block, and he only has about 4 seconds to make up for 50%+ in damage.

A good Doomsday will always have some meter, but if you limit him to 2 bars or less then he has to take a huge risk on getting in because he has a chance of burning himself out before having a clear shot. A DD needs one bar at least to break 30%, so that means you can effectively limit him to 1 bars worth of action instead of trying to make him burn it all, something that he would never do.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Going level 2 will net you in the 50% area of damage for low bars, while level 1 will only somewhat keep you ahead taking chip into account. Not to mention with its short cooldown, its pretty efficient.

If he waits for trait, we get our level 3 back and we still have a life lead. Its only beneficial if he lets us do so.

Going on level 3 prevents him from having trait to go in on you with, and the life-lead you pick up (considering your doing his full-combo damage in the matter of one MB'd special with time to spare) means you can afford some chip, ESPECIALLY if he lacks abundance of meter (which is why I recommend doing it when he is at 2 or less). You still have access to push block, and he only has about 4 seconds to make up for 50%+ in damage.

A good Doomsday will always have some meter, but if you limit him to 2 bars or less then he has to take a huge risk on getting in because he has a chance of burning himself out before having a clear shot. A DD needs one bar at least to break 30%, so that means you can effectively limit him to 1 bars worth of action instead of trying to make him burn it all, something that he would never do.
who cares about lvl 2 when you have a lot of bars from all the nothing youre doing with it

that means you can hit confirm strings into FADC MB B3 for raw, non venomed 54%
DD does not need a bar to break 30%, his basic bnb is 21% no bar and 42% one bar. he also does 5% chip via mb venom and 3.75 per shake

dont be on lvl 3 venom, it is not worth it at all. doomsday is a read based character, block and pick your spots to attack.

this is a misconception 90% banes have, just by going in lvl 2/3 does not mean you will get damage... this is the exact mistake most banes do in thinking that just because they do more damage now theyll get it guaranteed and run face first into a poke or well placed move. you still have to play footsies. you will get maybe 30-40% if youre lucky, everyone would rather eat 4 dps than one combo/2-3 BP
what every character needs against doomsday is pressure. no need to bury yourself just because a character who CANNOT open you up if you know how to block is rushing you down.

and pushblock a lot when he's low on bars.
 

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
who cares about lvl 2 when you have a lot of bars from all the nothing youre doing with it

that means you can hit confirm strings into FADC MB B3 for raw, non venomed 54%
DD does not need a bar to break 30%, his basic bnb is 21% no bar and 42% one bar. he also does 5% chip via mb venom and 3.75 per shake

dont be on lvl 3 venom, it is not worth it at all. doomsday is a read based character, block and pick your spots to attack.

this is a misconception 90% banes have, just by going in lvl 2/3 does not mean you will get damage... this is the exact mistake most banes do in thinking that just because they do more damage now theyll get it guaranteed and run face first into a poke or well placed move. you still have to play footsies. you will get maybe 30-40% if youre lucky, everyone would rather eat 4 dps than one combo/2-3 BP
what every character needs against doomsday is pressure. no need to bury yourself just because a character who CANNOT open you up if you know how to block is rushing you down.

and pushblock a lot when he's low on bars.
Because those bars come in handy for clashes and MB b.3s

He is a big body so we can hit him with j.d.3 113 Mb b.3 j.2 123 RT (the most damaging 2 bar combo) for 71% at level 3 venom. Taking into account that's a bonus 50% damage, that's a 48% combo venomless, yes. Add in the extra like... 10% damage and yeah you break 52%. At level 2 though with 25% extra damage you snag yourself 60%. DD isn't making up that difference in a matter of 4.5 seconds.

No bar is 21%. One bar is 42%. Thus, he needs at least 1 bar to get beyond 30%, yes.

As Bane, its good to take the option to not respect his trait when he is below the 2 bar mark. Its not just about "Oh you aren't guaranteed damage" its "you shut down his best pressure tool for free and only have to keep him out for 6 seconds while you still get at least 32% for 1 bar and still have half the duration to go." Its not a misconception, its a valid option because when he is under that 2 bar mark he can't get in and afford to keep you pressured. 30-40%? You know one BP/Charge is 32%, right? And with armor breaking and the fact that DD's backdash is awful, you can usually check them with another one right afterwards for another 32%, or DP them for 20%. Then they have to spend 6 seconds trying to get in and make a move on a character who still has access to another 1 or 2 bars of meter. Don't go yolo, of course, pick your fights but don't neglect level 3's ability to completely shift momentum and pressure off of yourself. Take it from an actual Bane player, letting DD run around with trait up is something you should only do if you can't safely keep him off of you after breaking it (3 or 4 bars). Even with blocking, you're right its some 5% on block per venom and then 11% grabs and shakes that you can just shake off, get some damage in, and back out of. The worst that could happen? DD traits, you go level 3, and he backs out and waits it out. He's wasting his trait time, and if you are keeping the meter in mind, he STILL doesn't have an option to make up the difference in damage output you dish out when his trait isn't available because yours will be up a lot sooner than his will.

No need to "pushblock a lot", he can mill your meter and you need to keep some for yourself for later on. Just pushblock when your on your worst cooldown, and try to do it when he's coming back in to fight you.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Because those bars come in handy for clashes and MB b.3s

He is a big body so we can hit him with j.d.3 113 Mb b.3 j.2 123 RT (the most damaging 2 bar combo) for 71% at level 3 venom. Taking into account that's a bonus 50% damage, that's a 48% combo venomless, yes. Add in the extra like... 10% damage and yeah you break 52%. At level 2 though with 25% extra damage you snag yourself 60%. DD isn't making up that difference in a matter of 4.5 seconds.

No bar is 21%. One bar is 42%. Thus, he needs at least 1 bar to get beyond 30%, yes.

As Bane, its good to take the option to not respect his trait when he is below the 2 bar mark. Its not just about "Oh you aren't guaranteed damage" its "you shut down his best pressure tool for free and only have to keep him out for 6 seconds while you still get at least 32% for 1 bar and still have half the duration to go." Its not a misconception, its a valid option because when he is under that 2 bar mark he can't get in and afford to keep you pressured. 30-40%? You know one BP/Charge is 32%, right? And with armor breaking and the fact that DD's backdash is awful, you can usually check them with another one right afterwards for another 32%, or DP them for 20%. Then they have to spend 6 seconds trying to get in and make a move on a character who still has access to another 1 or 2 bars of meter. Don't go yolo, of course, pick your fights but don't neglect level 3's ability to completely shift momentum and pressure off of yourself. Take it from an actual Bane player, letting DD run around with trait up is something you should only do if you can't safely keep him off of you after breaking it (3 or 4 bars). Even with blocking, you're right its some 5% on block per venom and then 11% grabs and shakes that you can just shake off, get some damage in, and back out of. The worst that could happen? DD traits, you go level 3, and he backs out and waits it out. He's wasting his trait time, and if you are keeping the meter in mind, he STILL doesn't have an option to make up the difference in damage output you dish out when his trait isn't available because yours will be up a lot sooner than his will.

No need to "pushblock a lot", he can mill your meter and you need to keep some for yourself for later on. Just pushblock when your on your worst cooldown, and try to do it when he's coming back in to fight you.
DDs backdash is actually very good

doomsday gets cumulative damage from chip, throws etc. dont disregard his damage just because its lower.

one bp is only 32 at lvl 3 venom with one bar. doomsday does 5% per hit of venom with mb having 2. now add in d1 shake and he just did 15-16% chip damage in 2 seconds.

this is what im talking about, lvl 3 does not shift momentum, you do. you dont suddenly make good reads at lvl 3.

doomsday does not need trait at all in most matchups, its just a nice extra, wasting his trait is not something to be proud of when youre putting yourself at lvl 3 to do so.

idk where you figure doomsday cant pressure without bars. he uses bars to get in and maybe a combo once in a while, thats it. in a rushdown fight you come to him so his meter dependence is matchup dependant

11% grabs and shakes become 18% grabs and 16% shakes. into setups and more guaranteed chip

your damage different is not huge, you will NOT land a bnb at lvl 3 at a high lvl often, maybe once every 5 times you go into lvl 3 and with the increased chip and general damage you receive it is very easy to make it up for doomsday in particular.
 

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
DDs backdash is actually very good

doomsday gets cumulative damage from chip, throws etc. dont disregard his damage just because its lower.

one bp is only 32 at lvl 3 venom with one bar. doomsday does 5% per hit of venom with mb having 2. now add in d1 shake and he just did 15-16% chip damage in 2 seconds.

this is what im talking about, lvl 3 does not shift momentum, you do. you dont suddenly make good reads at lvl 3.

doomsday does not need trait at all in most matchups, its just a nice extra, wasting his trait is not something to be proud of when youre putting yourself at lvl 3 to do so.

idk where you figure doomsday cant pressure without bars. he uses bars to get in and maybe a combo once in a while, thats it. in a rushdown fight you come to him so his meter dependence is matchup dependant

11% grabs and shakes become 18% grabs and 16% shakes. into setups and more guaranteed chip

your damage different is not huge, you will NOT land a bnb at lvl 3 at a high lvl often, maybe once every 5 times you go into lvl 3 and with the increased chip and general damage you receive it is very easy to make it up for doomsday in particular.
If your backdash isn't like... Batman level, its not good enough. You need a backdash that we can't command grab through, which only 3 people in the cast have.

Cumulative damage can't compare to 60% outright. When we do 2 of your combos for half the cost and effort, that's something to regard.

He venom charges, and upon him spending a bar we boot him out and he gets to sit there with his only option being a big dash in which we can punish. Also that's 32% on top of another 32%/20%/etc because you still have half your level 3 left over and huge advantage.

You don't have to make good reads to eat through his trait for free unclashable damage. It shifts because his main way of applying pressure is no longer a valid option. You go from pressured to no longer being pressured.

He does when we can just armor everything else we have for free. He needs trait to compete in the footsies because his lack of wake-up invuln and delayed armor on his attacks isn't going to do it for him when we are throwing constant DPs and BPs at him. In most match-ups, maybe not. But this one, he does, and he needs to manage it well. We can just sit at level 3 cooldown for 6 seconds, he doesn't have the means to open us up so the best he can hope for is chip.

The part where his only real means to set up real traps are off Mb venom hits and he needs it to break 30%. Pressure is more than just hitting a block, its being able to capitalize when you get through. Without meter, Bane can basically stop blocking in the last 2 seconds of cooldown and STILL not take as much damage as would be actually threatening. Also since he is doing less damage than us by a fair margin, he needs the meter to get back in and keep pressuring because not only can we secure a life lead, but we can sit on it.

11% grabs didn't even become 18% grabs when we had pre-patch 1 level 3 cooldown. Also garenteed chip? Hot dog, he deals us a whopping 16-20% and then we hit him back for half of that off of a DP at level 1. Chip isn't comparable damage when you consider we are doing 60% combos off of splash without even needing to go 3. As far as "You won't land BnB at level 3", yeah probably not. We'll just take 50%+ in two attacks and call it a day.

For DD to make it up while we have the meter to just push him back out, and with us not even needing to go into level 2 venom to outdo him in damage, your idea of "its easy for DD to make it up" is flimsy at best. Have you played this MU at a high level? I'm interested to see where you're getting this idea and experience from.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
If your backdash isn't like... Batman level, its not good enough. You need a backdash that we can't command grab through, which only 3 people in the cast have.

Cumulative damage can't compare to 60% outright. When we do 2 of your combos for half the cost and effort, that's something to regard.

He venom charges, and upon him spending a bar we boot him out and he gets to sit there with his only option being a big dash in which we can punish. Also that's 32% on top of another 32%/20%/etc because you still have half your level 3 left over and huge advantage.

You don't have to make good reads to eat through his trait for free unclashable damage. It shifts because his main way of applying pressure is no longer a valid option. You go from pressured to no longer being pressured.

He does when we can just armor everything else we have for free. He needs trait to compete in the footsies because his lack of wake-up invuln and delayed armor on his attacks isn't going to do it for him when we are throwing constant DPs and BPs at him. In most match-ups, maybe not. But this one, he does, and he needs to manage it well. We can just sit at level 3 cooldown for 6 seconds, he doesn't have the means to open us up so the best he can hope for is chip.

The part where his only real means to set up real traps are off Mb venom hits and he needs it to break 30%. Pressure is more than just hitting a block, its being able to capitalize when you get through. Without meter, Bane can basically stop blocking in the last 2 seconds of cooldown and STILL not take as much damage as would be actually threatening. Also since he is doing less damage than us by a fair margin, he needs the meter to get back in and keep pressuring because not only can we secure a life lead, but we can sit on it.

11% grabs didn't even become 18% grabs when we had pre-patch 1 level 3 cooldown. Also garenteed chip? Hot dog, he deals us a whopping 16-20% and then we hit him back for half of that off of a DP at level 1. Chip isn't comparable damage when you consider we are doing 60% combos off of splash without even needing to go 3. As far as "You won't land BnB at level 3", yeah probably not. We'll just take 50%+ in two attacks and call it a day.

For DD to make it up while we have the meter to just push him back out, and with us not even needing to go into level 2 venom to outdo him in damage, your idea of "its easy for DD to make it up" is flimsy at best. Have you played this MU at a high level? I'm interested to see where you're getting this idea and experience from.
Wall of texts don't change how the MU plays and I've played it offline many times with one of the best DD players. I don't theory talk.
 
D

Deleted member 5032

Guest
Wow, lots of good information. When DD activates trait, I've been keeping him locked down with d1's and jd3-113. I still have to watch out for his d1, but overall it seems to prevent him from doing anything too crazy.
 

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
Wall of texts don't change how the MU plays and I've played it offline many times with one of the best DD players. I don't theory talk.
I've played it offline too, and even though you say you don't theory talk it doesn't change the fact that you're wrong about the MU.
Theres a reason its in our favour, and its not because we just let him run amok with trait popped.