Balance patch changes (Major patch) discussion

[M2Dave]

How would you change fate?

According to NRS, the character's design revolves around strong zoning and footsies. I think everyone agrees that the zoning is adequate in spite of the lack of aerial control. However, the footsies are lacking for a character who has no overhead attacks, no low attacks, no pressure strings, and the worst throw range in the game. f+2 -> d,b+2 is good but punishable by Atrocitus (b,f+1), Batman (trait), Black Adam (f+1), Red Hood (d,f+3), Robin (d,b+2), and Superman (f+2). A possible solution would perhaps be to make d,b+2 -7 on block, which would help in bad match ups yet be inconsequential in good match ups. I am not convinced that the zoning is that strong to justify the character's conspicuous weaknesses, namely the lack of offensive options. Darkseid and Deadshot can zone just as well, if not much better in certain match ups, as Dr. Fate can and they have 50/50 mix ups too. In footsies, Dr. Fate is obviously outmatched by the likes of Aquaman, Black Adam, Superman, etc.

 

[Lokheit]

- Poison Ivy
• Bark skin input changed to DB2
•Unbeleafable string is now B22

Actually I'd prefer the Datura Hammer being DB1 (DB2 is taken by the Drill) as it's the one you use in combos. It would also be cool if the launching and KD options finished the stance without needing to hold up. B2D2 becoming B22 would be huge too.

The hitbox of B2D2 should be fixed too so it connects more consistently after Datura launchers (a lot of times it misses when the arm is clearly inside the opponent).

Apart from input and hitbox corrections, her completly useless bed of thorns gaining some utility would be neat (right now is the worse move in the game and not worth using under any imaginable scenario, even in late game chip situations it doesn't kill and takes forever to setup).

The SZ stream got me thinking that if her command grab worked like his (meterless is a KD) she could get meterless combos where she doesn't reset the advantage to 0.

Lastly it would be a neat addition if her trait hits wouldn't knock her down on throw animations (throw, kiss and B2D2Throw animations) and it just added damage during those (the opponent could get some roots on his feet like in bed of thorns to represent him being stuck in the ground so no knock down happens). It's very weird that you can't use many of your combos with trait active when it should help you.

 

[Zoidberg747]

I thought they fixed the restand in last patch? I would've noted it but what would you change?

Nope he still has +11 restand in the corner.

I would make him able to shoot less shots and put up less shields in trait. Make it so that he has to really think about how to use them. Maybe put more scaling on up vomit. That'd be it.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

All she needs is B12 or at the very least B123 being -5 aka safe. That's all.

B123 being safe isn't enough imo. The reward of landing it isn't enough to make anyone care.

She needs to be able to make better use of her primary string into launcher, and that's not going to happen when it has a gap.

Also it's important to remember that if she's getting buffed, likely other characters are too. Thus avoiding a repeat of the Kenshi "omg he was overbuffed" phenomenon only to find out it wasn't enough in the long run.

 

[sars]

Why are we switching CC 2 and 3 trait. That's a pretty big nerf. It's not like we get trait for free.

 

[Skylight1]

Uhhh.... so now db2 is for vine drill and bark skin? Interesting.

Listen, here is what she really needs.

- Down 2 sped up to 9ish frames.

- Reduce startup on all versions of db3 and increase damage on all versions of db3.

Ivy can now survive the next two years as is.

Plus extra chip damage for DB2 or give it some better tracking like Aquaman's From the Depths.

 

[JDE]

Wonder Woman:
Trait - give her an input function to each trait buff or make air dashing a default function
B1 advances her forward

Supergirl:
Decrease damage scaling on ice breath on hit (slight)
b123 -6 on block or downward laser becomes faster
Fix the issue of B1 & F2 into Krypton force not confirming on hit on the right

 

[OmGxBdON]

How would you change fate?

These may be if not the dumbest changes i have heard about fate. For one he doesnt even need changes and two, deadshot and darkseid have the zone and the offense. U want to nuder fates offense even more? Theres a reason he has a good mid and healing spell doesnt go on top of u or the opponent ,it would be broke af. U either are rushdown fool or just cant get past zoning.
Btw supergirl should get either her b12 breath gap removed or b123 not be punishable on block, like -6. Thats really the only change she needs. Oh and the combo glitch thingy that was mentioned recently

 

[OmGxBdON]

God help us if netherrealm hasnt learned from their mistakes yet. We about to have mileena 2.0

 

[OmGxBdON]

According to NRS, the character's design revolves around strong zoning and footsies. I think everyone agrees that the zoning is adequate in spite of the lack of aerial control. However, the footsies are lacking for a character who has no overhead attacks, no low attacks, no pressure strings, and the worst throw range in the game. f+2 -> d,b+2 is good but punishable by Atrocitus (b,f+1), Batman (trait), Black Adam (f+1), Red Hood (d,f+3), Robin (d,b+2), and Superman (f+2). A possible solution would perhaps be to make d,b+2 -7 on block, which would help in bad match ups yet be inconsequential in good match ups. I am not convinced that the zoning is that strong to justify the character's conspicuous weaknesses, namely the lack of offensive options. Darkseid and Deadshot can zone just as well, if not much better in certain match ups, as Dr. Fate can and they have 50/50 mix ups too. In footsies, Dr. Fate is obviously outmatched by the likes of Aquaman, Black Adam, Superman, etc.

Fates footsies are really good, not having a 50/50 or a clear cut way to open someone up is a different thing in general. Fate has good footies, top tier footsies IMO. His grab range is ass tho and especially because they took away his midscreen grab combo they should give that shit more range than a t-rex fetus' arms

 

[God Confirm]

Sorry, I assumed this thread was a response to the current Netherrealm stream. They said that they liked some of the buff suggestions they'd seen and in a chat me and others already bet that there was gonna be a buff thread up during/after the stream lol.

I mean, I know it was kinda like living with your head in the sand to believe otherwise, but I guess this finally confirms that NRS does listen to the community before balance patching @Zoidberg747

 

[Zoidberg747]

I mean, I know it was kinda like living with your head in the sand to believe otherwise, but I guess this finally confirms that NRS does listen to the community before balance patching @Zoidberg747

Why'd you tag me lol?

 

[myri]

It really can be DF2 either way that input it's bad as it is in current form. And her thorns need help but I didn't include them because that's for the ivy community to say I know nothing of how y'all use them. And D2 is slow but isn't her best aa s2?

The moves I mentioned may as well not exist in their current form. db3 especially, I always forget that move even exists until I accidentally throw it out. I'm legit like "Oh right she has that move too." every single time I do it. Watch Dragon play her too, he legit NEVER uses that move.

@Kooron Nation You said in another thread that making her down 2 faster would make it the best in the game, which isn't true at all. Her upward hitbox on her d2 is good no doubt, but not much better than a lot of other d2's in the game which are all 6 or 7 frames. The side to side hitbox on her d2 is actually completely ass, I should make a video on it. Scarecrow's d2 hits in front and behind as well as hitting just as high as Ivy's d2 and that shit is 11 frames.

Besides that s2 actually gets stuffed super easy by a lot of jump ins. Your best option has always been jump 2 or jump 1 on a read. Her d2 getting sped up is just to make it actually something that is useful for legit anything other than making a read on a jump in, which if it whiffs, due to either your opponent not jumping in or the d2 not connecting because it's side to side hitbox is ass, then you die because of it's recovery frames. Legit just make it a usable AA on reaction and leave the recovery and hitbox as is and we're good.

 

[God Confirm]

Why'd you tag me lol?

you're the main / only person I remember ever seen who argues that NRS is completely uninfluenced by the community at balance patch time so I thought you were relevant to it

 

[SonicNinja3532]

Sometimes I wonder why there isn't world peace and then I see how hostile people get over whether their favorite character should have 4 plus frames or 6 and l realize humanity is doomed.

Who was hostile over those changes?

 

[Zoidberg747]

you're the main / only person I remember ever seen who argues that NRS is completely uninfluenced by the community at balance patch time so I thought you were relevant to it

I don't think I ever said that (although maybe I did, idk). I know for a fact the Scorpion nerfs were a result of community outcry. Same with Deathstroke, Tanya etc.

However, I also don't believe that they will see someone complaining about say Deadshot and immediately move to nerf him. They are going to consult tournament matches, their own data, and the developers before making decisions. My usual point is that while the community is a factor, it is one of many other factors in balancing.

 

[BrianTheBEAST]

I like your suggestions to Joker

 

[EMP Dark]

Why would you give J two new strings just to make both of them unsafe?

 

[Juggs]

Anyone, and I mean anyone; top player to lowly casual, if you say Supergirl is balanced, fine the way she is or (god forbid) top/op, you don't know the MU and you are letting her get away with murder.

I'm just honestly done trying to logically and reasonably explain it to people. No matter what, we're labeled as downplayers who just suck at the game. Funny thing is, when a top player like F0xy says the same things, no one bats an eye. When Scar said the same things before he dropped her, no one really questioned it and in fact agreed. When you're not a top of the top well known player, people will just say you suck and you're downplaying. They don't even take anything you're saying into consideration. They just look at WHO is saying it, and talk down to you for it.

No reason to harp on the subject anymore. People are literally saying even making B123 safe at -5 is "too good" and would make her top 5. They're either trolling or they're serious, either way it's exhausting at this point.

 

[South]

For an AA I use j2 or s1 into b2d2. I Never use thorns as it is now but it needs a buff!

I hear thorns are terrible from ivy discord! But what's the proper way of using them?

 

[South]

Batman: J2 no longer a cross up and batman starts with no bats. That's all he needs

That I can see will work

 

[South]

Why would you give J two new strings just to make both of them unsafe?

I work for nrs we hate joker xD you should know this #1 joker player we been screwing joker since day 1 injustice 1

 

[South]

I'm just honestly done trying to logically and reasonably explain it to people. No matter what, we're labeled as downplayers who just suck at the game. Funny thing is, when a top player like F0xy says the same things, no one bats an eye. When Scar said the same things before he dropped her, no one really questioned it and in fact agreed. When you're not a top of the top well known player, people will just say you suck and you're downplaying. They don't even take anything you're saying into consideration. They just look at WHO is saying it, and talk down to you for it.

No reason to harp on the subject anymore. People are literally saying even making B123 safe at -5 is "too good" and would make her top 5. They're either trolling or they're serious, either way it's exhausting at this point.

I feel the same way I used characters who were balanced or one buff from being really good (broke isn't a thing nrs has really seen yet) my mk9 main noob a couple buffs and he'd been really good/ Kabul my secondary was already good... i1 I didn't play... mkx I used every b tier character but even the b tier was a couple buffs from dumb. But supergirl I agree her b123 string can be made -5 and it wouldn't break her.

 

[South]

According to NRS, the character's design revolves around strong zoning and footsies. I think everyone agrees that the zoning is adequate in spite of the lack of aerial control. However, the footsies are lacking for a character who has no overhead attacks, no low attacks, no pressure strings, and the worst throw range in the game. f+2 -> d,b+2 is good but punishable by Atrocitus (b,f+1), Batman (trait), Black Adam (f+1), Red Hood (d,f+3), Robin (d,b+2), and Superman (f+2). A possible solution would perhaps be to make d,b+2 -7 on block, which would help in bad match ups yet be inconsequential in good match ups. I am not convinced that the zoning is that strong to justify the character's conspicuous weaknesses, namely the lack of offensive options. Darkseid and Deadshot can zone just as well, if not much better in certain match ups, as Dr. Fate can and they have 50/50 mix ups too. In footsies, Dr. Fate is obviously outmatched by the likes of Aquaman, Black Adam, Superman, etc.

So you would leave him the same overall but make db2 -7 is your main buff you'd like? I can see that making him better since he'd have a safe option up close that he needs.

 

[South]

Actually I'd prefer the Datura Hammer being DB1 (DB2 is taken by the Drill) as it's the one you use in combos. It would also be cool if the launching and KD options finished the stance without needing to hold up. B2D2 becoming B22 would be huge too.

The hitbox of B2D2 should be fixed too so it connects more consistently after Datura launchers (a lot of times it misses when the arm is clearly inside the opponent).

Apart from input and hitbox corrections, her completly useless bed of thorns gaining some utility would be neat (right now is the worse move in the game and not worth using under any imaginable scenario, even in late game chip situations it doesn't kill and takes forever to setup).

The SZ stream got me thinking that if her command grab worked like his (meterless is a KD) she could get meterless combos where she doesn't reset the advantage to 0.

Lastly it would be a neat addition if her trait hits wouldn't knock her down on throw animations (throw, kiss and B2D2Throw animations) and it just added damage during those (the opponent could get some roots on his feet like in bed of thorns to represent him being stuck in the ground so no knock down happens). It's very weird that you can't use many of your combos with trait active when it should help you.

Yes I like these changes my bad about the input I forgot that vine drill was db2 I thought db1 for a second