Balance and Meta discussion

[Eddy Wang]

I honestly think the poke system is fine, and the issue is the game limits your ability to avoid engaging with the poke system in the first place.

Take Scorpion's B1 for example. A nice disjointed attack with decent range. If you want to confirm you have to input B14, and if you block confirm you have input B143 to be safe. The issue is no matter how well you spaced your B1 (max range vs. point blank), Scorpion always ends up point blank in front of the opponent after B143, having to engage with the poke system.

Imagine how great it would be if your initial spacing was maintained, so a well spaced B1 results in Scorpion being outside of poke range after B134 (and only poor spacing means you have to deal with pokes)? However as it stands your initial spacing means fuck all since Scorpion advances forward more than the opponent gets pushed back. Really, when it comes to advancing strings you're at the whims of whatever pushback on block NRS decided to apply rather than how good your own spacing was and that should not be.

When we talk about poke system we talk about the generic normals, we mean d1, d3, and d4, those are the main, issues.

 

[Braindead]

On your last point maybe just make the act of rising from the ground (no wakeups or rolls just standing up) take longer so you can see them standing after no delay short delay or long delay instead of constantly getting these weird one hit "american resets"

I think the better way to do it is make characters vulnerable during the last part of standing up so hitting meaties on oki becomes easier.

Mantis once counted and the whole standing up animation takes 20 or 21 frames (forgot which) and the character is invulnerable during all of them. If Paulo makes the defender vulnerable during the last 5 or 6 frames then meaties become easy and the defender would be forced to block instead of waking up jumping or buttons.

 

[fr stack]

I think the better way to do it is make characters vulnerable during the last part of standing up so hitting meaties on oki becomes easier.

Mantis once counted and the whole standing up animation takes 20 or 21 frames (forgot which) and the character is invulnerable during all of them. If Paulo makes the defender vulnerable during the last 5 or 6 frames then meaties become easy and the defender would be forced to block instead of waking up jumping or buttons.

Yeah that makes more sense cause the getup animation itself is grand

 

[fr stack]

PAULOOOOOO hear my cry!!!!!

 

[Cobainevermind87]

Mantis once counted and the whole standing up animation takes 20 or 21 frames (forgot which) and the character is invulnerable during all of them.

That is absolutely insane. Holy shit.

 

[deathstroke187]

That is absolutely insane. Holy shit.

thats why you have people getting up with buttons full combo yo ass cause you miss timed you oki from a frame or two.

example

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/531275301 at 01:33:17

me playing againts probably the best PC player. try to guess how many times he woke up with 11

 

[Trini_Bwoi]

When we talk about poke system we talk about the generic normals, we mean d1, d3, and d4, those are the main, issues.

I know...and I'm saying that the poke system itself is fine, if you had more control over remaining out of poke range in the first place. But some characters can't, because their strings advance them forward more than they pushback on block. So ending up in poke range is an inevitability rather than due to poor spacing.

 

[Braindead]

That is absolutely insane. Holy shit.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1187428452942647296

 

[SonicNinja3532]

Alright, I'm gonna type a big ass post. Might split this into more digestible chunks.

People here on this site just aren't willing to admit the obvious. The game is unfinished. The game was released in a definitively incomplete state. I've said this multiple times and I'm going to say it here, for all that drama that went on about them grinding their employees into the dust, nothing about this game shows that.

The game also has no foundation. What do I mean by that?

Pokes aren't universalized
Flawless blocks aren't universalized

These are two mechanics that should be BASIC TOOLS YOU PLAY THE GAME AROUND. This game has a backwards construction of, basic shit is radically different but over arching character game plans are exactly the same. This kind of design always results in very weird power crunch where 5-7 characters are just flat out better than everybody else.
Combine this with incomplete variations, thrown together variations, tons of moves and strings that are outright useless, an absolutely scrubby implementation of armor and comeback factor in KB's (and the insane disparities between those) it's super hard to have faith in this game even when you like it. Certain characters are playing on almost an entirely different engine (wave dashers versus non-wave dashers, good zoners that turn the game into the worst parts of Inj2) as well.

I know people tend to not like me, but I get along with quite a few top players and figures in this community and hang out with these guys at events and often discuss the game. I WAS JUST at KIT over this weekend. I talked with Ominous, Kevo, Honeybee, Biohazard, Nicky and others and basically the conclusions drawn from all those talks are the game is unfinished, it isn't fun, it's scrubby as fuck and it really doesn't give you many reasons to stay invested it competitively.

So basically, based off the conversations I've had with these people and with other people I know, here's what I think the game needs MINIMUM.

1: 7F +15 on hit -7 on block D1's for everybody. I've yet to talk to anybody who objects to this.

2: 6F U3's and 9F U2's for everybody. U2's should be buffed to 100 damage.

3: Upper body invincible D2's. Literally copy and paste the U2 effect.

4: Plus jump kicks are fine, what needs to change is the reward. Make them do a short hop style splat knockdown on hit that's slightly negative (-1, -2).

5: Removal of fatal blow armor

6: Remove the ability to flawless block out of hit stun

7: All jab and low profiling anti airs removed

8: Removal of the freedom of movement options like dash canceling into normals and wave dashing (yes a lot of top players do not like these things either but people called me a scrub for bringing it up 3 months ago). Elucidating why this hurts the game requires an essay unto itself.

9: Reworked variations and moves incorporated into base kits. MUCH bigger more in depth topic obviously.

10: D2's only KB whiffed throws

11: A throw tech window increase, or a removal of the requirement to let go of block to tech

12: Double KB throws have their damage reduced to 240 from 310.

And that's just BASIC UNIVERSAL SHIT. This game almost needs a redesign.

The literal only thing I disagree with is the removal of jab anti airs, and the way you’ve changed jump ins. Otherwise I’d be hard pressed to actually find a way to dispute any of these. This game suffers deeply from just randomly selected tools given to characters, as NRS games commonly do. Its like they were chosen from a hat.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

The literal only thing I disagree with is the removal of jab anti airs, and the way you’ve changed jump ins. Otherwise I’d be hard pressed to actually find a way to dispute any of these. This game suffers deeply from just randomly selected tools given to characters, as NRS games commonly do. Its like they were chosen from a hat.

I don't like anti airs because offline, they literally shut down jumping. I think jump ins are too good, but you also shouldn't make stopping jumps a lazy reaction either which is what the AA jabs do.

Also are you THE Sonicninja the Kabal player? I'd like to play sometime.

 

[deathstroke187]

I don't like anti airs because offline, they literally shut down jumping. I think jump ins are too good, but you also shouldn't make stopping jumps a lazy reaction either which is what the AA jabs do.

Also are you THE Sonicninja the Kabal player? I'd like to play sometime.

if we read a jump in or if we can react we should be able to punish you hard for it.

j3 usualy leads to crazy combos on hit and plus frames on block. thats not ok

 

[SonicNinja3532]

I don't like anti airs because offline, they literally shut down jumping. I think jump ins are too good, but you also shouldn't make stopping jumps a lazy reaction either which is what the AA jabs do.

Also are you THE Sonicninja the Kabal player? I'd like to play sometime.

I don’t believe that aa jabs offline are that much more powerful than online, they’re just consistent. However they can still get shut down for the same reasons and suffer from the same problems. They’re not exactly sfv jabs that absolutely shut down jumping no matter what imo.

And yeah that’s me, I still post here from time to time.

 

[Eldriken]

Breakaway should always be a hard knockdown. Period. That or just bring back the regular Breaker system.

Make rolls cost one bar of offensive and defensive meter.

Normalize d1s across the board. I agree with the more plus on hit and more negative on block suggestions. Perhaps even make them universal. What is used to determine who gets a 6, 7, 8 or 9f d1? Why did they nerf Jason's d1 in MKX only to give it to Geras, a character who clearly didn't need it?

Normalize u2/u3 wakeups. Some are literally useless while others are insanely good.

I second not being able to Flawless Block out of hitstun. I don't understand this at all.

Make Fatal Blows have no pushback, -50 on block, don't regenerate if blocked/whiffed for the rest of the round and remove the armor.

I'm sure there's other stuff I'm forgetting right now, but this is just what I could currently think of.

 

[Plays2_MX]

Pretty much everyone is spot on with the universal changes on the meta. Specially making U2's and U3's adjusted so that everybody can use them effectively. That would make players practice more Flawless Blocks (Which we're seeing now, but they should be more frequent).

I play with a few friends and I'm the only one that isn't seriously playing anymore because of the game's problems. Some can say "Git gud", but when you lose in the game's current state then it's hard to take it seriously tbh. JIK's should be seriously looked at. Why should I still get punished if I read your JiK3 and try to AA my opponent?

 

[M2Dave]

I miss the old days when requests for buffs and nerfs and fundamental changes to the meta were neutralized by new tech and match up discussions.

Sonic Fox is showing the community how previously perceived low tier characters such as Kano and Raiden are much better than people initially assumed, but the community apparently could not care less.

With all due respect to every individual in this thread, I want none of you balancing the game. You lack the resources as only NRS is able to formulate the game and test it under specific circumstances.

 

[CY MasterHavik]

I miss the old days when requests for buffs and nerfs and fundamental changes to the meta were neutralized by new tech and match up discussions.

Sonic Fox is showing the community how previously perceived low tier characters such as Kano and Raiden are much better than people initially assumed, but the community apparently could not care less.

With all due respect to every individual in this thread, I want none of you balancing the game. You lack the resources as only NRS is able to formulate the game and test it under specific circumstances.

People rather complain than get good. What blows my mind is that every NRS game has mroe than 10 characters that can win at a high level. Most games wish they can have that.

It's also worth noting this game doesn't deliver casually either.

Customization is worse than Inj2's.
The story/lore changes are stupid af
You can't use more than one customization in game modes except non-competitive kasuals
The emphasis on special forces characters that NOBODY likes

I'm sorry as much as I love to talk about these things I'm going to say this my man. What the fuck does that have to do with anything? It's extremely off topic.

 

[SonicNinja3532]

People rather complain than get good. What blows my mind is that every NRS game has mroe than 10 characters that can win at a high level. Most games wish they can have that.

I'm sorry as much as I love to talk about these things I'm going to say this my man. What the fuck does that have to do with anything? It's extremely off topic.

This idea of people complaining and not getting good falls short once you realise its top players saying this lol. People know how deal with most of these things but that doesn’t make them fair or balanced. No amount of labbing will make fatals less dumb, or the jump system less dumb, or any of that.

Also on your second point, I’m pretty sure most fgs have a top 10 that are all competitive at this point. I’m no avid tekken fan but I’m pretty sure its the case there, its definitely there in sfv, its there in dbfz, and basically any other fg. Top heavy games like MK9 where like 4-5 characters are competitive and the rest of the cast are borderline unplayable aren’t the norm anymore.

 

[fr stack]

@CY MasterHavik noticed you only got the game recently id give online a good few games to see wot peoples issues are these points are repeated by a lot of people 8)

 

[CY MasterHavik]

This idea of people complaining and not getting good falls short once you realise its top players saying this lol. People know how deal with most of these things but that doesn’t make them fair or balanced. No amount of labbing will make fatals less dumb, or the jump system less dumb, or any of that.

Also on your second point, I’m pretty sure most fgs have a top 10 that are all competitive at this point. I’m no avid tekken fan but I’m pretty sure its the case there, its definitely there in sfv, its there in dbfz, and basically any other fg. Top heavy games like MK9 where like 4-5 characters are competitive and the rest of the cast are borderline unplayable aren’t the norm anymore.

Top players complain in every game though and can be wrong. It has happen before. I'm an SC6 player and for the longest time people thought Taki was bad until someone found tech that made her high tier in some people's eyes. That came lab work so don't tell me it's impossible. I think if people know how to deal with something you need to look at the move before screaming it's unfair. For example, Geese in season 2 was the only character who can combo from a down jab. This led to death combo if you knew what you were doing. People figure out ways to work around this but this was greatly unfair. On the flip side, people thought musclebuster with Azwel in SC6 was broken and needed to be slow down but a number of players showed that if you block it and punish you make the Azwel change their gameplan. that is why in season 2 of SC6, they only nerf the damage of it. You need to do your homework before you make this call and I have seen time and time again this community not do that otuside of the top players. I have been around since MK9. I know how this community acts.

Also...SF5 had a Cammy and Akuma problem. Tekken is a different beast within itself. DBFZ does not have a top 10 that can win as every patch made it that people were running one or two of the same characters. We still got those games out there where it is top heavy. MK11 is a blessing when over 1/3 of the cast can win. You don't say the game is unfair or unbalanced if you can win with mid tier characters. (Flashbacks to ChrisG winning with Green Arrow in Inj 1.). This community likes to complain and beg for buffs and nerfs. NRS is finally not giving in and is telling people to figure shit out. We all complained about how overpatched some of the past titles were and now we're crying because we're not getting a hand out?

@CY MasterHavik noticed you only got the game recently id give online a good few games to see wot peoples issues are these points are repeated by a lot of people 8)

Three things.

1. I follow the NRS community and tournament scene and don't know who any of these people are.
2. Even though I'm grinding offline to get decent gear, I can tell the meta isn't center around zoning like past titles and that's a BIG win within itself.
3. I'll try online once I get some free time from work.

 

[Rasilover]

wakeup fatal blow should cost 4 bars

 

[Rodney Quillz]

Top players complain in every game though and can be wrong. It has happen before. I'm an SC6 player and for the longest time people thought Taki was bad until someone found tech that made her high tier in some people's eyes. That came lab work so don't tell me it's impossible. I think if people know how to deal with something you need to look at the move before screaming it's unfair. For example, Geese in season 2 was the only character who can combo from a down jab. This led to death combo if you knew what you were doing. People figure out ways to work around this but this was greatly unfair. On the flip side, people thought musclebuster with Azwel in SC6 was broken and needed to be slow down but a number of players showed that if you block it and punish you make the Azwel change their gameplan. that is why in season 2 of SC6, they only nerf the damage of it. You need to do your homework before you make this call and I have seen time and time again this community not do that otuside of the top players. I have been around since MK9. I know how this community acts.

Also...SF5 had a Cammy and Akuma problem. Tekken is a different beast within itself. DBFZ does not have a top 10 that can win as every patch made it that people were running one or two of the same characters. We still got those games out there where it is top heavy. MK11 is a blessing when over 1/3 of the cast can win. You don't say the game is unfair or unbalanced if you can win with mid tier characters. (Flashbacks to ChrisG winning with Green Arrow in Inj 1.). This community likes to complain and beg for buffs and nerfs. NRS is finally not giving in and is telling people to figure shit out. We all complained about how overpatched some of the past titles were and now we're crying because we're not getting a hand out?


Three things.

1. I follow the NRS community and tournament scene and don't know who any of these people are.
2. Even though I'm grinding offline to get decent gear, I can tell the meta isn't center around zoning like past titles and that's a BIG win within itself.
3. I'll try online once I get some free time from work.

Laughs in Outtake Johnny

 

[fr stack]

@CY MasterHavik no not zoning thatl be the least of yer worries hehe . Theres some amount of fuckery in this game ill leave it at that cause im just an online garbage man so dont want to go full retard . Im playin fighters a long ass time as well as you i feel the game was released unfinished and (hopefully) we'll get a big mkxl style patch soon changing the meta

 

[CY MasterHavik]

@CY MasterHavik no not zoning thatl be the least of yer worries hehe . Theres some amount of fuckery in this game ill leave it at that cause im just an online garbage man so dont want to go full (soap bar in my mouth) . Im playin fighters a long ass time as well as you i feel the game was released unfinished and (hopefully) we'll get a big mkxl style patch soon changing the meta

We'll get a patch before dbfz I'll tell you that much. A patch is coming obviously, it all depends on when honesty. Also there is fuckery in all fighters even KOF 13/14 and Tekken 7. Sometimes you just gotta deal with it. At least we're not Overwatch and Fornite players who have to adjust every few weeks or months to a new meta because the developers for both games patch the game like crazy.

 

[SonicNinja3532]

Top players complain in every game though and can be wrong. It has happen before. I'm an SC6 player and for the longest time people thought Taki was bad until someone found tech that made her high tier in some people's eyes. That came lab work so don't tell me it's impossible. I think if people know how to deal with something you need to look at the move before screaming it's unfair. For example, Geese in season 2 was the only character who can combo from a down jab. This led to death combo if you knew what you were doing. People figure out ways to work around this but this was greatly unfair. On the flip side, people thought musclebuster with Azwel in SC6 was broken and needed to be slow down but a number of players showed that if you block it and punish you make the Azwel change their gameplan. that is why in season 2 of SC6, they only nerf the damage of it. You need to do your homework before you make this call and I have seen time and time again this community not do that otuside of the top players. I have been around since MK9. I know how this community acts.

Also...SF5 had a Cammy and Akuma problem. Tekken is a different beast within itself. DBFZ does not have a top 10 that can win as every patch made it that people were running one or two of the same characters. We still got those games out there where it is top heavy. MK11 is a blessing when over 1/3 of the cast can win. You don't say the game is unfair or unbalanced if you can win with mid tier characters. (Flashbacks to ChrisG winning with Green Arrow in Inj 1.). This community likes to complain and beg for buffs and nerfs. NRS is finally not giving in and is telling people to figure shit out. We all complained about how overpatched some of the past titles were and now we're crying because we're not getting a hand out?


Three things.

1. I follow the NRS community and tournament scene and don't know who any of these people are.
2. Even though I'm grinding offline to get decent gear, I can tell the meta isn't center around zoning like past titles and that's a BIG win within itself.
3. I'll try online once I get some free time from work.

Of course top players can be wrong, but when virtually every top player in the scene (honestly basically everyone in the scene as well) thinks the same thing I’d say it’s pretty true. No amount of labbing can suddenly make cetrion’s tracking full screen armoured fatal blow punishable if she does it from 3/4 screen or further, it doesn’t take a genius to see how that’s a bit silly and a case of extremely skewed risk reward.

Additionally people do look at these things before saying its unfair, even in your geese example you say that the community thought it was unfair even after labbing, so how is that not the case here too? People have put the time in and yet still ultimately drew the same conclusions, it’s not exactly coincidence at this point. I’ve done my homework and I’m sure plenty of other people have, doesn’t make these things any less true.

Also while sfv may have had an akuma cammy problem, that was at least 2 seasons ago. In the current meta of sfv there’s quite a few characters who are all high tier and competitive, enough to disprove your point imo. And even following your logic, mk11 itself struggled from a similar thing that sfv did with some of the characters, like when everyone had a geras, liu or jacqui ( liu being the worst offender).

I definitely agree that the community is full of complainers and negativity but at the same time we can’t exactly pretend like the game doesn’t suffer from the problems it suffers from.

 

[CY MasterHavik]

Of course top players can be wrong, but when virtually every top player in the scene (honestly basically everyone in the scene as well) thinks the same thing I’d say it’s pretty true. No amount of labbing can suddenly make cetrion’s tracking full screen armoured fatal blow punishable if she does it from 3/4 screen or further, it doesn’t take a genius to see how that’s a bit silly and a case of extremely skewed risk reward.

Additionally people do look at these things before saying its unfair, even in your geese example you say that the community thought it was unfair even after labbing, so how is that not the case here too? People have put the time in and yet still ultimately drew the same conclusions, it’s not exactly coincidence at this point. I’ve done my homework and I’m sure plenty of other people have, doesn’t make these things any less true.

Also while sfv may have had an akuma cammy problem, that was at least 2 seasons ago. In the current meta of sfv there’s quite a few characters who are all high tier and competitive, enough to disprove your point imo. And even following your logic, mk11 itself struggled from a similar thing that sfv did with some of the characters, like when everyone had a geras, liu or jacqui ( liu being the worst offender).

I definitely agree that the community is full of complainers and negativity but at the same time we can’t exactly pretend like the game doesn’t suffer from the problems it suffers from.

I haven't done super deep driving into tech and things like that, but I have watched enough tournaments to know the meta isn't center around zoning and the only person using Cetrion is Dragon(unless someone else came out of nowhere I don't know about.). So you're bring up a character that only guy uses. Now if this Azwel in SC6, I wouldn't argue with you as SC6 has a waterfall of Azwel players.

I haven't kept up with the meta of sf5 as I just don't care as much as the people playing it do. Also, I brought up the Geese example as a community coming together to bring an issue to developer's attention to make sure it got patched. Despite acknowledging this Geese didn't run over train at high level. Many people palce well with him but Geese had a few counterpicks to slow him down. I would like to add the Tekken community didn't run Geese into the ground like our community has done to a number of characters in the past. He is still a strong character but they addressed the stuff that was TOO strong. That's an example of a community hitting the lab, exposing a problem, dealing with it before it gets patch, and maintaining the game's dignity.

Sidenote: To my knowledge Cetrion hasn't won anything. I know Gears, liu, Jacqui, Sonya, and Johnny have done most of the winning.

Back on top, I am not agaisnt patch but I think NRS ahs done a good job of giving the ball to the community and run with it. They haven't bailed anyone out. I like this because when that big patch hits we can get the major issues and not, "Yo dawg man Jax's gotcha grab safe on block!" To do this right, you need to nto complain but find a counter to it and do your best to bring it to their attention. MK11 has got legs because the ovepratching hasn't chase peopel away. Stuff like that is why some of the other NRS games died or why many people gave up on dbfz. Patching too much is going to chase peopel away despite it giving them what they want. No one wants to take a test and have the material of the test change 5 tiems throughout the time you're given to take it. I don't think MK11's perfect but this game has finally shook the zoning bug and we can have different playstyles for once. Zoning is still strong but you can have a damn chance for once in this game. Who wants to play Inj 2 Deathstroke with his insane zoning and meter draining gun shots? This game makes you think more. As someone who has been here since MK9, I'm so proud of my favorite series learning from past mistakes.(Now if we can take care of that FTP shit we'll be 10 out of 10.) Hell, we don't even have OP DLC guest characters anymore.(Okay I heard Arnold is pretty good but at least it's not DLC launch version of Freddy.)