Balance and Meta discussion

[SonicNinja3532]

you can have a 2 in 1 move and yet not connecting every special move you have.
For example, Skarlet can connect F4~blood ball at the wall, but she can't do it midscreen
Skarlet can't connect B3~blood ball midscreen, but she can do it in the corner

What happens is, if characters are pushed further away from the first active frame range of the special, even if that move connects certain specials due the pushback it won't catch them in time so it expires. At the wall, there is no place for character to be pushed to, so blood ball connects on the first active frame of that window.

Another clear example is how she can do f43 and cancel any special that is not blood ball, even in the corner she can't do it.

I understand what you mean but I think you’re mistaken in what’s actually happening. There’s no in built timer, what’s happening in the examples you mentioned is a result of the moves not having enough cancel advantage on hit to account for the travel time of blood ball. The reason blood ball doesn’t connect midscreen from f4 and b3 is because the cancel advantage of those moves are high enough for the blood ball to connect on the first or so active frames, but not high enough for it to connect any later.

For example I’m not sure how fast blood ball is exactly (I think its like 30f or something) but lets say for the example I’m making that its 30f anyway. If the cancel advantage of f4 is 31f then blood ball would combo if it hit on the first active frame, but on the second active frame it wouldn’t because the amount of frames between startup to the move connecting would be higher than the cancel advantage.

Likewise the reason she can’t combo blood ball off of f43 is because the cancel advantage isn’t high enough to allow it, but its still high enough for her other moves. The same thing happens with kabal, his f4 has a cancel advantage of 20 or 21f iirc, so he can combo nomad dash, but can’t combo his projectile. Likewise he can combo his normal saw from f22 since the cancel advantage is 24f, but not the amp version since that one is about 27f startup.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Mortal Kombat has two flag systems, one is called "2 in 1" which allows characters to link normals into specials, in MK11 this was updated with a timer, meaning 2 in 1 linking window can ow expire.

The other one is called Auto-Block system, this one when enabled it doesn't matter how plus you are, you can't link normals to conitnnue combo.

For example Skarlet's blood ball its +29 on hit, she can't start a combo off it because the auto block system activates, and in this period despite them being -29 they are allowed to block any incoming attack.

You can't normally start a grounded combo from specials though unless they put you in a capture state, which I believe is a specific flag and not just something that happens when you're hit with any special by default.

Dizzy would probably know for sure.

 

[Jowabunga]

It is seriously the main suck of this game!!! If its fixed the game would actually be fun! Even with its other terrible problems this is the main one!!!

I've actually quit the game because of this, it became incredibly un-fun for me very quickly.

 

[Eddy Wang]

I understand what you mean but I think you’re mistaken in what’s actually happening. There’s no in built timer, what’s happening in the examples you mentioned is a result of the moves not having enough cancel advantage on hit to account for the travel time of blood ball. The reason blood ball doesn’t connect midscreen from f4 and b3 is because the cancel advantage of those moves are high enough for the blood ball to connect on the first or so active frames, but not high enough for it to connect any later.

But this is just what i said

 

[Eddy Wang]

You can't normally start a grounded combo from specials though unless they put you in a capture state, which I believe is a specific flag and not just something that happens when you're hit with any special by default.

Dizzy would probably know for sure.

MK9
Rain - 43~RHC, 43
Sonya - F22~MSC Dive kick~21

MKX
Scorpion, 3~FBC, 21 or 21~FBC 21
Cage~113~SKC F23
Lao - Hat Spin, 44

Those are just some examples of grounded combos canceled into a special into a ground combo starter without necessarily be a capture state, all these had something in common, they work like a street fighter link, but to do that, you had to cancel a special move to link another normal, this what a 2 in 1 means in MK games where a special move would connect you get to cancel it before it hits and link a regular hit instead. Of course Lao hat spin was +16 on hit and he could link 44 if he did on a perfect frame.

However don't take it for granted since it's not a universal rule, otherwise, some characters would trade hits, and recover earlier than others and still combo, this doesn't happen because of the second flag, the one that dictates what hit stun disables p2 guards after being hit, which was the auto block.

In MK9 Skalet jab~CD~US was a true 10f combo starter, but she couldn't do jab~CD, jab for example despite being exactly +13 or so to start a combo with it.
Hat Trick Lao, couldn't cancel 112124~EX TP until the final patch even if at the beginning, it looked like he should, the opponent not only could block it but could actually duck it as well, later on they disabled the auto block flag from 112124~ex TP giving him ground combo starters without actually capturing the opponent.

Another one of his specials that had auto block flag on was call back, the window to link anything was accounted only for the hat to hit, but he had ways to make it plus without the hat hit, but still wouldn't connect a 44 without p2 blocking it.

If you look at MK11 there is only 2 characters that makes use of this mechanic

Cage when FB is active he can run cancel combos
Lao can hatspin into F4, but the window to connect F4 after hat spin its extremely strict so no one actually bothers with it.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

MK9
Rain - 43~RHC, 43
Sonya - F22~MSC Dive kick~21

MKX
Scorpion, 3~FBC, 21 or 21~FBC 21
Cage~113~SKC F23
Lao - Hat Spin, 44

Those are just some examples of grounded combos canceled into a special into a ground combo starter without necessarily be a capture state, all these had something in common, they work like a street fighter link, but to do that, you had to cancel a special move to link another normal, this what a 2 in 1 means in MK games where a special move would connect you get to cancel it before it hits and link a regular hit instead. Of course Lao hat spin was +16 on hit and he could link 44 if he did on a perfect frame.

However don't take it for granted since it's not a universal rule, otherwise, some characters would trade hits, and recover earlier than others and still combo, this doesn't happen because of the second flag, the one that dictates what hit stun disables p2 guards after being hit, which was the auto block.

In MK9 Skalet jab~CD~US was a true 10f combo starter, but she couldn't do jab~CD, jab for example despite being exactly +13 or so to start a combo with it.
Hat Trick Lao, couldn't cancel 112124~EX TP until the final patch even if at the beginning, it looked like he should, the opponent not only could block it but could actually duck it as well, later on they disabled the auto block flag from 112124~ex TP giving him ground combo starters without actually capturing the opponent.

Another one of his specials that had auto block flag on was call back, the window to link anything was accounted only for the hat to hit, but he had ways to make it plus without the hat hit, but still wouldn't connect a 44 without p2 blocking it.

If you look at MK11 there is only 2 characters that makes use of this mechanic

Cage when FB is active he can run cancel combos
Lao can hatspin into F4, but the window to connect F4 after hat spin its extremely strict so no one actually bothers with it.

Most of those involve either a cancel or a launcher though — raw specials usually don’t combo unless they capture.

 

[Eddy Wang]

Most of those involve either a cancel or a launcher though — raw specials usually don’t combo unless they capture.

nope, they don't, neither does normals into normals, at least in Mortal Kombat

 

[Braindead]

But this is just what i said

It's not a new MK11 timer. It's just cancel advantage like everything else in the game and previous games.

 

[SonicNinja3532]

But this is just what i said

Not exactly, the point is that there’s no flag system in place lol, it’s literally just a case of there not being enough cancel advantage. The only reason this wasn’t prominent in older nrs games was because most moves had a ridiculously high amount of cancel advantage, but it still happens in those games too. One of the examples off the the top of my head was that f1 into teleport wouldn’t combo for sektor in mkx because of this.

 

[THTB]

Not exactly, the point is that there’s no flag system in place lol, it’s literally just a case of there not being enough cancel advantage. The only reason this wasn’t prominent in older nrs games was because most moves had a ridiculously high amount of cancel advantage, but it still happens in those games too. One of the examples off the the top of my head was that f1 into teleport wouldn’t combo for sektor in mkx because of this.

This is misinformed.

The flags system goes as far back as the first MK game. This anti-combo flag is why things such as Sub s2 does not actually link into anything without a cancel, despite having enough hit advantage to theoretically do so.

MK11 has much less hit advantage on things, seemingly to combat the abundance of scenarios where it is possible to completely jail an opponent with rather slow options. For example, from Cassie/Johnny nutblow restands, you are only +3 and +4, respectively, whereas in previous games, it was possible to have so much advantage, a vast majority of the characters kit would jail from these options (e.g. Cassie EX nutcracker in MKX jailing into a jump normal).

 

[SonicNinja3532]

This is misinformed.

The flags system goes as far back as the first MK game. This anti-combo flag is why things such as Sub s2 does not actually link into anything without a cancel, despite having enough hit advantage to theoretically do so.

MK11 has much less hit advantage on things, seemingly to combat the abundance of scenarios where it is possible to completely jail an opponent with rather slow options. For example, from Cassie/Johnny nutblow restands, you are only +3 and +4, respectively, whereas in previous games, it was possible to have so much advantage, a vast majority of the characters kit would jail from these options (e.g. Cassie EX nutcracker in MKX jailing into a jump normal).

I don’t think you really understand what I’m talking about in this scenario. I know there’s a auto block system in place, but my point is that there’s no timer system like he said.

 

[THTB]

I don’t think you really understand what I’m talking about in this scenario. I know there’s a auto block system in place, but my point is that there’s no timer system like he said.

Noted. My mistake lol.

 

[Plays2_MX]

This is misinformed.

The flags system goes as far back as the first MK game. This anti-combo flag is why things such as Sub s2 does not actually link into anything without a cancel, despite having enough hit advantage to theoretically do so.

MK11 has much less hit advantage on things, seemingly to combat the abundance of scenarios where it is possible to completely jail an opponent with rather slow options. For example, from Cassie/Johnny nutblow restands, you are only +3 and +4, respectively, whereas in previous games, it was possible to have so much advantage, a vast majority of the characters kit would jail from these options (e.g. Cassie EX nutcracker in MKX jailing into a jump normal).

That reminded me with Scorpion on MKX. There was a time where you couldn't do 214 + TP 214 + TP MB. That was later allowed post-patch. I don't remember the cancel adv tbh, but I wasn't sure if there was an anti-combo flag or something.

 

[thlityoursloat]

That reminded me with Scorpion on MKX. There was a time where you couldn't do 214 + TP 214 + TP MB. That was later allowed post-patch. I don't remember the cancel adv tbh, but I wasn't sure if there was an anti-combo flag or something.

Pretty sure it was cancel advantage, 214 used to jail into 214, then couldn't, then they allowed it again.