Balance and Meta discussion

[Eddy Wang]

• krushing system at point blank: high beats mid, mid beats lows, lows beat highs

Loved this, i think this would solve a lot of issues with the game too.

 

[Eddy Wang]

Also sorry for the typos, my Keyboard is dying.

Forgot to add that no move that got flawless blocked should have pushbacks.

 

[Error404]

Yeah , pokes should be more plus on hit and more negative on block. I don't see a reason , why I should have to "confirm" my poke or why I should be forced to poke back ,everytime I block one.

I'd like to see plus on block strings be atleast plus 3. If these strings can't be used to establish your mids or your throw they are basicly useless.

F.block launchers are also still trash for ~90% of the cast and that should never be the case , considering how expensive and risky they are.

Fix up some of the jank AF hit/hurtboxes and we're set.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

Alright, I'm gonna type a big ass post. Might split this into more digestible chunks.

People here on this site just aren't willing to admit the obvious. The game is unfinished. The game was released in a definitively incomplete state. I've said this multiple times and I'm going to say it here, for all that drama that went on about them grinding their employees into the dust, nothing about this game shows that.

The game also has no foundation. What do I mean by that?

Pokes aren't universalized
Flawless blocks aren't universalized

These are two mechanics that should be BASIC TOOLS YOU PLAY THE GAME AROUND. This game has a backwards construction of, basic shit is radically different but over arching character game plans are exactly the same. This kind of design always results in very weird power crunch where 5-7 characters are just flat out better than everybody else.
Combine this with incomplete variations, thrown together variations, tons of moves and strings that are outright useless, an absolutely scrubby implementation of armor and comeback factor in KB's (and the insane disparities between those) it's super hard to have faith in this game even when you like it. Certain characters are playing on almost an entirely different engine (wave dashers versus non-wave dashers, good zoners that turn the game into the worst parts of Inj2) as well.

I know people tend to not like me, but I get along with quite a few top players and figures in this community and hang out with these guys at events and often discuss the game. I WAS JUST at KIT over this weekend. I talked with Ominous, Kevo, Honeybee, Biohazard, Nicky and others and basically the conclusions drawn from all those talks are the game is unfinished, it isn't fun, it's scrubby as fuck and it really doesn't give you many reasons to stay invested it competitively.

So basically, based off the conversations I've had with these people and with other people I know, here's what I think the game needs MINIMUM.

1: 7F +15 on hit -7 on block D1's for everybody. I've yet to talk to anybody who objects to this.

2: 6F U3's and 9F U2's for everybody. U2's should be buffed to 100 damage.

3: Upper body invincible D2's. Literally copy and paste the U2 effect.

4: Plus jump kicks are fine, what needs to change is the reward. Make them do a short hop style splat knockdown on hit that's slightly negative (-1, -2).

5: Removal of fatal blow armor

6: Remove the ability to flawless block out of hit stun

7: All jab and low profiling anti airs removed

8: Removal of the freedom of movement options like dash canceling into normals and wave dashing (yes a lot of top players do not like these things either but people called me a scrub for bringing it up 3 months ago). Elucidating why this hurts the game requires an essay unto itself.

9: Reworked variations and moves incorporated into base kits. MUCH bigger more in depth topic obviously.

10: D2's only KB whiffed throws

11: A throw tech window increase, or a removal of the requirement to let go of block to tech

12: Double KB throws have their damage reduced to 240 from 310.

And that's just BASIC UNIVERSAL SHIT. This game almost needs a redesign.

 

[Vampbite]

I think you guys covered mostly what I would have said tbh.

 

[CY MasterHavik]

I just got the game and all I can tell you is that Jax and Jacqui are good. I will also say I am happy it isn't a zoning meta for once. I haven't palyed online, but it is nice watching people paly neutral and only zone when the situation calls for it.

 

[rainuS]

You know most pokes into specials don’t jail right

Kano d1 jails to Kanoball, in ripper its D1xcmd grab or D1xKanoball mindgame out of single poke on block, in Dirtbag its d1xxto db4(acid) and ofc its hard to punish/safe on block

Kollector d1 jails to db2, or d1 to cmd (back in the pack) grab the same situation as Kano

Baraka d1 jails to db3 or cmd grab (Bone Picker)

Raiden (thunderwave) d1 db2 jails, he gets full combo after this

Scorpion(Searing Rage) d1 df4 jails

Sindel(Hair Kut) d1 db4, cant couterpoke and u have to block standing after their poke on block, if u counterpoke its Krushing Blow

Cetrion d1xdb1(wall) jails

Cage d1xxdb3(rising star) Jails, amped is safe and also u have to block standing

Shang d3xxdb1 jails to full combo

Dvorah d1xxdb3 jails and u can mb to make it -4 and deal a lot of chip damage

 

[Mandolore1123]

Kano d1 jails to Kanoball, in ripper its D1xcmd grab or D1xKanoball mindgame out of single poke on block, in Dirtbag its d1xxto db4(acid) and ofc its hard to punish/safe on block

Kollector d1 jails to db2, or d1 to cmd (back in the pack) grab the same situation as Kano

Baraka d1 jails to db3 or cmd grab (Bone Picker)

Raiden (thunderwave) d1 db2 jails, he gets full combo after this

Scorpion(Searing Rage) d1 df4 jails

Sindel(Hair Kut) d1 db4, cant couterpoke and u have to block standing after their poke on block, if u counterpoke its Krushing Blow

Cetrion d1xdb1(wall) jails

Cage d1xxdb3(rising star) Jails, amped is safe and also u have to block standing

Shang d3xxdb1 jails to full combo

Dvorah d1xxdb3 jails and u can mb to make it -4 and deal a lot of chip damage

This sure is comprehensive. Too bad this is just a small part of the cast and hence proves my point that most pokes into specials do indeed not jail. The fact that these characters have this ability doesn’t immediately make them strong. If this tool was so strong then each and every one of the characters here would be top tier. However they are not.

 

[rainuS]

but its another layer to poke wars which is dumb if im used to counterpoke on reaction i fall for this, next time they poke I have to respect their followup on block or they can just do d1 grab, d1 to blockstring, or sindel can do D1, then you stand block expecting overhead and she goes low... Its worse then MKX 50/50 which mostly you can reaact to, here you have to guess else its not your turn thats why its bad.

 

[thlityoursloat]

Making pokes -6 alone would be meaningless, they need to add a ton more blockstun to them so it's possible to react to getting hit vs. blocking them.
Long range d3s should not be a thing. Lao and autoshimmy DLC guy can just safely mash d3 from a distance where anyone else without the same cancerous d3 can poke back, and they are so hardly negative with so little blockstun that there's no way your advancing slow mid would hit them out if it. This is especially worse when they have safe specials to cancel as well, forcing you to just stand there eating d3s on block like they're plus. Against Lao you either attempt a counterpoke and get LAUNCHED or sit there and eat blocked d3s into strike/throw mixups. What the fuck is that?
D4s should not be pocket kenshi shoulders. Reduce their blockstun, or at the very least make them not low profile as well so you can actually punish them with jumps. I've been put into situations where I had to do a jump kick as deep as possible to hit a crazy low profiling d4 that also has barely any whiff recovery, and then got ANTIAIRED for it.

 

[Mandolore1123]

but its another layer to poke wars which is dumb if im used to counterpoke on reaction i fall for this, next time they poke I have to respect their followup on block or they can just do d1 grab, d1 to blockstring, or sindel can do D1, then you stand block expecting overhead and she goes low... Its worse then MKX 50/50 which mostly you can reaact to, here you have to guess else its not your turn thats why its bad.

You do know that if you can react to a 50/50 they it is by definition not a 50/50 right? In MKX characters have standing overheads and lows all over the place. Raiden had both a 13f overhead and low. This was a true 50/50 because you cannot react to any 13f move. Triborg had a 21f overhead and a faster low by a few frames, so in theory you should be able to react to the overhead and by default you block low. This is NOT a 50/50 because the guess is no longer there. In the last patch they nerfed a lot of overheads to be slower precisely to reduce the amount of 50/50s in the game.

 

[Mandolore1123]

Kano d1 jails to Kanoball, in ripper its D1xcmd grab or D1xKanoball mindgame out of single poke on block, in Dirtbag its d1xxto db4(acid) and ofc its hard to punish/safe on block

Kollector d1 jails to db2, or d1 to cmd (back in the pack) grab the same situation as Kano

Baraka d1 jails to db3 or cmd grab (Bone Picker)

Raiden (thunderwave) d1 db2 jails, he gets full combo after this

Scorpion(Searing Rage) d1 df4 jails

Sindel(Hair Kut) d1 db4, cant couterpoke and u have to block standing after their poke on block, if u counterpoke its Krushing Blow

Cetrion d1xdb1(wall) jails

Cage d1xxdb3(rising star) Jails, amped is safe and also u have to block standing

Shang d3xxdb1 jails to full combo

Dvorah d1xxdb3 jails and u can mb to make it -4 and deal a lot of chip damage

Also note that out of all the examples you listed only 4 can jail into full combo (greatest reward) and if you read correctly you are almost always guaranteed a punish for most of these options here. The reward for doing D1~special isn’t that high for most characters. If you don’t want the opponent to do D1 on block into string or throw then you need to be willing to poke back and make the read and don’t let yourself be conditioned

 

[NaughtySenpai]

Jump kick being negative on block is the single dumbest thing I've read in this threat that gets parroted left and right.
I don't know a single fighting game that punishes you for landing a jump kick.

Improving anti airs is a thing that probably should get touched, but penalizing somebody for landing a jump kick is pants on head retarded.
Unless we're talking early jump kicks which should be slightly negative or neutral.

 

[CmC_HAt]

forget about meta changes.

first of all, i play the mk11 pc port.
if you are playing, and you dualshock4 disconnect then the game close. that s**it NOT happen in any figting game, just in mk11.
start fixing that basic issue.

then: fix geras, fix the jump in kicks, and put a GOOD anti -airs to the whole cast

so then, nerf all the moves that fu**ck neutral game in a game incorrectly categorized "'neutral and footsies based game" (my balls)

 

[Zer0_h0ur]

Also sorry for the typos, my Keyboard is dying.

Forgot to add that no move that got flawless blocked should have pushbacks.

fucking exactly. You flawless block sub's cheap ass running move he gets free plus frames with and sub remains plus and the spacing is the same.

Not only should FB'ed moves have NO pushback, they should also instantly become punishable, certainly not retaining plus frames.
Again, just like with KB viability discrepancy, we have totally arbitrary functioning of the game's mechanics with some moves retaining frame data and some becoming punishable with FB

 

[Zer0_h0ur]

Making pokes -6 alone would be meaningless, they need to add a ton more blockstun to them so it's possible to react to getting hit vs. blocking them.
Long range d3s should not be a thing. Lao and autoshimmy DLC guy can just safely mash d3 from a distance where anyone else without the same cancerous d3 can poke back, and they are so hardly negative with so little blockstun that there's no way your advancing slow mid would hit them out if it. This is especially worse when they have safe specials to cancel as well, forcing you to just stand there eating d3s on block like they're plus. Against Lao you either attempt a counterpoke and get LAUNCHED or sit there and eat blocked d3s into strike/throw mixups. What the fuck is that?
D4s should not be pocket kenshi shoulders. Reduce their blockstun, or at the very least make them not low profile as well so you can actually punish them with jumps. I've been put into situations where I had to do a jump kick as deep as possible to hit a crazy low profiling d4 that also has barely any whiff recovery, and then got ANTIAIRED for it.

The main issue with AutoShimmy DLC guy too is his special absurd absurd hit adv he gets when he does land his D3. Like, why so much hit stun? Arbitrary hit adv for certain characters

 

[ChatterBox]

I also think there should be some pushback when pokes are blocked. No one should be in range to do d1 on block 3 times in a row, you should have to move forward or do a slower move to keep "pressure" in my mind.

 

[Braindead]

Doubt NRS is gonna massively shuffle the game, so here are some implementable changes I'd like to see:

1- Armor on fatal blows removed, damage reduced to 25% instead of 33%, pushback on block reduced, doesn't regenerate in the same round if blocked or whiffed
2- Throw KB damage reduced to 19-20% instead of 31%
(3?) Maybe more recovery on blocked pokes, the 1 frame addition didn't really do anything
(4?) Do something about the oki, not sure what's the best play here though

 

[versavices]

- All D1s and S1s have universal frame data with differing hitboxes/range.

[S1 = i7 / +10 / +1
D1 = i7 / +12 / -7 ]

- Fatal Blows are once per round, until you connect it, and ALL fatal blows are -50+ with 0 pushback. Some can be safe as a character strength but the majority should be an easy jump in punish. EB/Jax/Frost have increased recovery on block/whiff.

- Season 2 gets announced and instead of only adding new customs, every character gets 3 customs added to their baseline moveset and their variations completely re-balanced.

ie. Baraka gets Gutted and extended normals baseline.

- Throws:
a. Damage reduced from 140 to 100.
b. All throws that give oki nerfed to be +1~+3 on hit if they leave you @ 0-1 range.
c. No characters have 2 Krushing Blow kbs.

- Short hop punch (1 or 2) is now an NJP from MKX and always -20+ on block. (Seriously, why is there a kick and a punch if they both do the same thing?) I feel like the punch used to be a launching NJP but was changed last minute like everything else in MK11)

- Damage scaling lowered across the cast to accommodate all of the new combo paths characters will have.

- I Frames cut from 20+ to 5 on delayed get up.

- U2 reversals that suck balls (skarlet, jade, kitana, 3/4th the cast) sped up and horizontally extended to actually work as advertised. (How is this still not fixed?) Change cost to 1 Offensive bar.

- U3 is an HKD that disables all wake up options except delayed get up. Cost changed to 1 defensive bar

- Meter system regeneration changed so that 1 bar regenerates quickly but if you deplete both bars it takes significantly longer to regen.

Example:

1 offensive bar = 7 second cooldown
2 offensive bars = 21 second cooldown

1 defensive bar = 10 second cooldown
2 defensive bars = 45 second cooldown

This would reward proper meter management and would fix the constant breakaway problem.

- Brutalities all unlocked on Tournament mode

- eSports skins to add prize pools to Pro Komp events. I'm not sure what's going on but the bonus pots for MK11 have been pitiful. I'm amazed anyone actually competes for $$. If you make top 8 at evo, or even top 16, you should be able to go home with more money than you spent. Why did they stop doing this? NRS is allegedly more all in on eSports with MK11 yet the prize pools keep decreasing every year. Bad look in 2020.

 

[Tony at Home]

Can't believe I forgot this in my previous post-

Forward wakeup roll should cost 1 bar defensive AND 1 bar offensive meter

 

[Trini_Bwoi]

I honestly think the poke system is fine, and the issue is the game limits your ability to avoid engaging with the poke system in the first place.

Take Scorpion's B1 for example. A nice disjointed attack with decent range. If you want to confirm you have to input B14, and if you block confirm you have input B143 to be safe. The issue is no matter how well you spaced your B1 (max range vs. point blank), Scorpion always ends up point blank in front of the opponent after B143, having to engage with the poke system.

Imagine how great it would be if your initial spacing was maintained, so a well spaced B1 results in Scorpion being outside of poke range after B134 (and only poor spacing means you have to deal with pokes)? However as it stands your initial spacing means fuck all since Scorpion advances forward more than the opponent gets pushed back. Really, when it comes to advancing strings you're at the whims of whatever pushback on block NRS decided to apply rather than how good your own spacing was and that should not be.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

It's also worth noting this game doesn't deliver casually either.

Customization is worse than Inj2's.
The story/lore changes are stupid af
You can't use more than one customization in game modes except non-competitive kasuals
The emphasis on special forces characters that NOBODY likes

 

[fr stack]

Doubt NRS is gonna massively shuffle the game, so here are some implementable changes I'd like to see:

1- Armor on fatal blows removed, damage reduced to 25% instead of 33%, pushback on block reduced, doesn't regenerate in the same round if blocked or whiffed
2- Throw KB damage reduced to 19-20% instead of 31%
(3?) Maybe more recovery on blocked pokes, the 1 frame addition didn't really do anything
(4?) Do something about the oki, not sure what's the best play here though

On your last point maybe just make the act of rising from the ground (no wakeups or rolls just standing up) take longer so you can see them standing after no delay short delay or long delay instead of constantly getting these weird one hit "american resets"

 

[fr stack]

Also i am trash so i could be way off base here lol

 

[Eddy Wang]

Doubt NRS is gonna massively shuffle the game, so here are some implementable changes I'd like to see:

1- Armor on fatal blows removed, damage reduced to 25% instead of 33%, pushback on block reduced, doesn't regenerate in the same round if blocked or whiffed
2- Throw KB damage reduced to 19-20% instead of 31%
(3?) Maybe more recovery on blocked pokes, the 1 frame addition didn't really do anything
(4?) Do something about the oki, not sure what's the best play here though

Can't believe i would see the day braindead would be dead serious, thank you, your suggestions are very welcome and super accurate as well.