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Breakthrough ATTN NRS: HawkGirl Fixes/Issues/Requests

regulas

Your Emporer
Havnt played HG much lately, been playing lobo and bane. But I recorded a quick 30 second or w/e video of back to back to back 123 b3's despite having not touched the character lately. Spend 20 mins in the lab doing it, and you can time it well. You can even hear my button hits so you can see im not mashing out the b3. Quite easy.
The ultimate point is that it is still relatively the hardest B3 to connect in the game regardless of whether you can get it consistently or not. There is no real down side to speeding it up a couple frames, anyway.
 

EMPRESS_SunFire

Regina George of discord
Because its not needed in the slightest. Everyone in this community seems to want to be spoon fed everything about this game. From matchups to combos. Put in a little bit of time, and this "needed buff" turns into a non-issue. Thats why I'm against it. There should be a reward for learning timings in this game.
What? So are you trying to say that her B3 is not way slower that the others? And... No! I have spent a lot of time on this combo... I have the timing... But the thing is that even with the timing... It's impossible to perform this the 50% of the timer (OR MORE)
 

Boodendorf

Bird woman!
I see what you are saying, and while I disagree completely its not even like her 123 b3 is a 1 frame link regardless, so I went a bit extreme there. Its far, FAR easier.
I'm used more to 1 frame links than anything else in sf4 because I suck at everything except combos in that game. 123 b3 isn't 1 frame for sure, but the timing is inconsistant, it feels like it vary everytime I do it.
 
Havnt played HG much lately, been playing lobo and bane. But I recorded a quick 30 second or w/e video of back to back to back 123 b3's despite having not touched the character lately. Spend 20 mins in the lab doing it, and you can time it well. You can even hear my button hits so you can see im not mashing out the b3. Quite easy.
That combo along with 3MT MBu, B3 are super inconsistent. Some days I can get it 20 times in a row. Other days I can connect 5 out 20. There's about...... 4 frames of leeway with connecting the B3 after those juggle starters. Add this to the fact that MB B3 damn near unusable vs jump-ins, sweeps, and bunch of other moves and you can agree, that a 32F B3 is not fair at all.

And the pop up after mace toss..... So if you instant air do it and miss, you will pop up. I think its the game trying to ensure the proper recovery frames for max height even if you are lower.
The proper recovery frames on a whiffed MT MB is 6. Not -6. +6. And it sure isn't the -50 something that we end up with when that weird pop up happens.
 

Jon Berg

Noob
The proper recovery frames on a whiffed MT MB is 6. Not -6. +6. And it sure isn't the -50 something that we end up with when that weird pop up happens.

Yea I know, im saying I think its the game goofing up with the recovery since it never happens at max height.

What? So are you trying to say that her B3 is not way slower that the others? And... No! I have spent a lot of time on this combo... I have the timing... But the thing is that even with the timing... It's impossible to perform this the 50% of the timer (OR MORE)
Every b3 has different frame data. Ares, Bane, Flash, Harley, Joker, all have just as slow or slower. And i know it varies how easy they are to hit because of how the previous string launches etc etc, but thats the way the cookie crumbles. Frame data isnt identical across the board. Someone has to have the slow move. And ours is 100% manageable.
 

Espio

Kokomo
Most of mine aren't actual buffs just more or less fixes for consistency. Blue is for fixes and Green is for buffs.


colt hecterrific

First and foremost, I'd like to thank you both for taking the time to read this thread and our thoughts/requests :).



1. Mace toss to hit mid on all hitboxes. The recovery on whiff for mace toss is really bad and is not that fast of a projectile either, I think this is reasonable for it to be a mid on everyone.

2. Faster back 3. Would make punishing jump ins, combo extension and things of that nature more reliable/consistent. I play Hawkgirl more than any character yet I have an easier time doing Back 3 in combos and to blow up jump ins with Raven, Cyborg, Green Lantern etc than with Hawkgirl.

Is it doable? Sure, but it's still too slow in my opinion and it feels awkward, it doesn't feel awkward doing it with other characters.

3. All of her mid hitting strings to hit mid regardless of hitbox/character. If I move is classified as a mid it should hit as a mid on everyone.


4. Remove the pop up animation that sometimes happens after a MB mace toss, it's ridiculously long and you're open to punishment when the move is supposed to be safe on block/plus on block.

5. Increase on the range of her mace normals/strings.

6. dive kick/heavenly stomp to be a hard knockdown both in combos and by itself to improve her oki game.
 

regulas

Your Emporer
2.)This is a long shot but it has been discussed by the community in great detail. In order to deal with her terrible MU's, where the opponent can completely shut down her trait (flight in the air), the introduction of an air dash (only while in flight), or the ability to block/MB while in flight, should be implemented. This would allow us to stay in the air/continue to attack in the air, against opponents like Sinestro, Martian Man Hunter, BatGirl, DeathStroke, Lex Luthor, Cyborg, etc., and would cost a bar of meter, or two, in order to somehow substantiate her flight against said characters.
I was thinking, possibly we could also just more generally emphasise that Hawkgirl bad match-ups tend to be exceptionally bad because of how directly they shut-down a lot of her machanics, and that even if our suggested solutions are impractical any kind of change that could make them less one-sided could go a long way to balancing her out.
 
Because its not needed in the slightest. Everyone in this community seems to want to be spoon fed everything about this game. From matchups to combos. Put in a little bit of time, and this "needed buff" turns into a non-issue. Thats why I'm against it. There should be a reward for learning timings in this game.
I actually agree with this statement.

Just not about her B3.
But her B3 is some disgusting repugnant trash the way it is. It's the slowest in the game (Lobo's is slower I think?) and Bane's B3 has the same number of frames, but it's a frigging drop kick. 29F should be standard and you only go lower. Harley's B3 is 32F but I'll be damned if it doesn't feel faster.
 
You know how many times I've been comboed with Harley's cartwheel into B3? You know how many times I've seen it missed?
Like friggin' never without lag.

You know how many times I've been comboed with Joker's canister>gun shot>B3? You know how many times I've seen it missed?
Like friggin never without lag.

You know how many times Bane's hit me with B3 in a combo?..... Ok I'll admit it's never happened. But that's not the point!

You know when I use B3 MB now? Vs Supernova and to get the armored dash-in vs interactibles. I mean..... Flash's B3 is supposedly slower but I've been AAd with it when I used WW.

There's something screwy about that B3. And definitely with that air MT MB. I'll write up my list of stuff a bit later.
 

RunwayMafia

Shoot them. Shoot them all.
When I get home I'll add videos of the of the issues with 32~MT (MB upshoulder) stance wise...
 
colt hecterrific

Gentlemen, you have my utmost respect as those with the power to change things. I realize that heavy is the crown you wear and thus I thank you for this oppurtunity to air my thoughts on Hawkgirl and propose some fixes/buffs. She is by and large a mid-tier character with a few good characters and a few crippling matchups.

Fixes

- Make B2 a true mid. What I mean by this is that many of the characters can duck this move although the frame data and game specs say it's a mid. This shouldn't be able to be ducked by so many characters if this is a mid.
- Make Grounded Mace Toss a true mid.. Like the move above, MT is called a mid attack. Yet nearly the entire cast can duck this baby like it's going out of style. It says it's a mid. Let's make it a mid.
- Heavenly Stomp should be a hard knockdown at all times. I don't know when it happened, but somewhere along the tenure of these patches we've been getting, Heavenly stomp became tech rollable. It used to never be the case except when the opponent was grounded. This move is integral to many HG players and setting up HG's very good okizeme game.
- Lose the strange floating animation after Hawkgirl whiffs an air Mace Toss Meterburn. Uh..... not to keep pointing to the game data but it says on whiff MT MB is +6 frames. I don't understand this incredibly weird inconsistency where she floats up for about 40+ frames and is really vulnerable.


Buffs

- Speed up B3 - Comboing into this with 123f and 3 MT MBu seems harder than it looks and that the frame data would suggest. Also, using this move as a counter by MBing it doesn't work that well at all. Jump-ins vs B3 MB are either safe or they can combo into it before the B3 hits. Many sweeps are even safe vs it. The use of B3 and b3 MB are sketchy and inconsistent at best as it is now.
- Change Wing Evade 1 into something useful - I believe this is the most underused and worthless move in the game. In a game of countless situations, I have found only 1 use of this move and that is knocking Doomsday out of the air during his Supernova. Because that's the only character and instance that this move will ever connect on anybody. I almost don't care what it's changed to. Change it to another Mace Charge. Change it into a downward air mace. Change into a projectile reflector. Something. Just something better than what this is right now.
- Cut down the frames of a grounded Mace Toss on whiff - Now...... the frame data says this move is -22 on whiff. It isn't. It's at least -45. I don't know if this is on purpose but I do know that since this move is easily duckable by most of the cast, unlike many other duckable projectiles, you can dash after you duck it and punish it while she's standing there with her arm outstretched. If MT becomes a true mid, then this can stay the way it is. But otherwise....... it's whiff recovery + it's duckable, makes her a sitting duck in a number of oppurtinities and situations.
- Make WE3 two hits vs ground opponents - Thus making it an armor crusher.

- Allow Hawkgirl to block projectiles while in flight - The worst of HG's, matchups are vs Deathstroke, Batgirl, Sinestro, Lex Luthor, Cyborg and soon to be Martian Manhunter. In DS' and Sinestro's case, they can shoot her out of the air like it's the easiest thing in the world to do. (Well..... probably because it is for them). Allowing her to block projectiles doesn't give her a free way to close the gap or even to stay in Flight. BUT, it does give her the ability to DO SOMETHING vs a move like a jumping gun shot or fireball. Because as it stands, the characters I named can shut down her ENTIRE flight and jump game with one move in their movelist. And there is nothing HG can do about it. I believe she needs to at least have the ability to do SOMETHING about some of the moves when she's in Flight.

Or

- Allow Hawkgirl to have armor in Flight at the cost of two bars of meter for about 15 frames [/u]. Again. Give her SOMETHING to combat the one move-game-plan-busters in the list above.......

Batgirl's Smoke Bomb eliminates all flight from HG (and jumping)
Martian Manhunter's teleports eliminates all flight from HG (and jumping)
Doomsday's Supernova MB does the same (but at least he has to burn meter)
Sinestro's Meteors eliminates all flight (and jumping) and so does his Satellite trait
Zodd's Krptonian Dash does the same
Cyborg can shoot her out of the air easily with nary a repurcussion.
Deathstroke can shoot her out of the air easily with no repurcussion.
Lex Luthor can shoot her out of the air easily AND use Corpse Charge in the air with no repurcussion.

All I ask is the ability to do SOMETHING. Just have some kind of option to not get sniped and laughed at on the way down for even suggesting to attempt flying or jumping (because her jump is very high, slow, and floaty)

- Increase the range of WE2 - Because it makes it look like she has chicken legs with the small range it has.


Thank you gentlemen and go forth. I'm sure you'll do the right thing. :)
 

EMPRESS_SunFire

Regina George of discord
Well! That WE(3) being double hit is maybe not needed, and it may take out her corner combos... So i'm fine with the current WE(3)

* That pop up animation after a whiffed MB air mace toss is not needed, so if you could take it out..
* Make Heavenly Stomp a hard knockdown
* Faster B3

I would be more that satisfied with that :)
 
Uhhh, WHAT?
Ok I'll admit..... this is a greedy want of mine when I was going around and getting B3 MBed when I did WE3 as HG doesn't have much to combat armor. And it'll only be a two-hitter vs ground opponents so her juggles with B1~WE3 in the corner wouldn't be changed.

So my thought is..... hey, she does the move with two legs. Shouldn't it be two hits? Huh? Huh? Who's with me on this? Guys?.... Guys?....
 

regulas

Your Emporer
Ok I'll admit..... this is a greedy want of mine when I was going around and getting B3 MBed when I did WE3 as HG didn't have much to combat armor.

So my thought is..... hey, she does the move with two legs. Shouldn't it be two hits? Huh? Huh? Who's with me on this? Guys?.... Guys?....

Shouldn't WE3 be going through him anyway regardless of armor? It basically already is our anti-armor move, not a catch-all but still.
 

Jon Berg

Noob
Ok I'll admit..... this is a greedy want of mine when I was going around and getting B3 MBed when I did WE3 as HG doesn't have much to combat armor. And it'll only be a two-hitter vs ground opponents so her juggles with B1~WE3 in the corner wouldn't be changed.

So my thought is..... hey, she does the move with two legs. Shouldn't it be two hits? Huh? Huh? Who's with me on this? Guys?.... Guys?....

Haha. MB b3 is one of the few counters to WE3's safeness. We have standing 3 to deal with armor. Grasping a little far here =P.
 
Like I said.... it's a bit of a greedy want for me. Yeah, WE3 goes through B3 MB if close enough. But I used to try to do it from a little farther than mid screen sometimes to get in. A Cyborg player showed me how that's not the best of ideas and to only use it to stay unpredictable.

And F13 deals with armor better than 3 imo.
 

regulas

Your Emporer
The more I think about it the more I find the best thing would be to focus on fixing her worst match-ups, even with all her random problems, overall we can still play against most of the cast. The problem just remains those handful of match-ups that are just a little too one sided.
 
Which is why something needs to be done while she's in Flight to be able to do something.... ANYTHING... to counteract those damn deadly moves......

Smoke bomb (Batgirl)
Teleport Punch (Martian Manhunter)
Meteor (Sinestro)
Krptonite Charge (Zodd)
Corpse Charge (Lex Luthor)
Deathstroke's gunshots
Cyborgs air plasma shots

All of these moves shot down a good chunk of her movelist, strategy, and movement. She's 3-7 vs 3 of the characters on that list because of just ONE MOVE and 4-6 against the rest (maybe 5-5 vs Cyborg?) and it's not a back-and-forth 4-6. It's a HARD 4-6.