At this point, is there any one person who thinks this game is balanced?

[Chernyy Volk]

I disagree that they have no weaknesses, but that's opinion. Well, sort of. I also have proof in tournament results, but we'll get to that later.



Hmm, I don't think I can agree with your assessment of comeback mechanics in this game and their ability to sway a match. If the winner of a match was more determined by character selection and luck-of-the-draw boneheaded uses of fatal blow, we would see more variance in tournament outcomes than we do. If a character could really hold a player's hand to the extent you say, and comeback mechanics added variability to the extent you suggest, I wouldn't be seeing The Mighty Unjust crushing the competition week after week, or be seeing the same people in top 8.

Volatility to the extent that you describe should be observable via data, and there isn't data to support your hypothesis. In fact, data suggests that your perception isn't reality.



First, you don't know that "no one is HELLA GRINDING" this game. In fact, I see streams every day of people playing for hours on end, so I'm going to say that your statement is likely inaccurate.

Second, let's take a look at the results of a fairly recent offline tournament...

1. NASR|TekkenMaster (Jacqui, Jade)
2. PxP|A Foxy Grampa (Sub-Zero, Sheeva, Shang Tsung)
3. PG|Hayatei (Fujin)
4. Konqueror249 (Sub-Zero)
5. DF|Grr (Geras)
6. AVirk (Scorpion)
7. Dubasik (Kabal)
8. MCG|MK_Azerbaijan (Rain, Sonya)

Jacqui, Jade, Subs, Sheeva, Tsung, Fujin, Geras, Scorps, Kabal, Rain, Sonya. The top 8 repped 11 different characters. I don't think your assertion holds water.

Now, let's get back to your original hypothesis, that the good characters don't have weaknesses except in minute ways. If this was true, there wouldn't be incentive to character swap, as top tier characters lack weaknesses that can be exploited in a meaningful manner. Everyone plays a top tier character with no exploitable weaknesses, there would be no counterpicking, and we wouldn't see what we see in tournament results.

Anyway, I respect that you don't dig the game and you prefer another iteration. We all have different tastes. You may also find that the balance isn't to your liking because strategies you prefer to use aren't powerful. If we're looking at data, though, the game does appear to have strong balance between characters, especially when compared to other entries in the last 30 years of fighting games.

Edit: I wanted to add this last bit to keep you from wasting effort.

If you don't have data, you probably won't change my mind. I'm not saying your opinion is wrong, necessarily, it's just something I'm going to require in order to reassess my position. If you have some results that support your claims, I'm totally open to checking it out.

All I will respond with to your last point, and it gets very fucking old that people think I'm talking out of my ass when I'm not. I really am on good terms with, or friends with, a lot of respected or top players in this community. I talk to these guys on a regular enough basis about the game and about the state of the games competition. I actually do know people aren't grinding. The mindset right now is people are just biding time and fulfilling sponsor/brand obligations and are waiting for the next game to be announced. I can say with certainty that this is the mood of the community right now. It is a reality that the game itself is not being played at the highest level by these guys right now, everyones just goofing off.

Also, in regards to my second point you have an absolutely fair point, but the problem is if I'm right, there really is no way to prove that via data. The study to produce the data you seek would take so much work and would require insane amounts of hundreds of hours of tournament footage scrutiny. I just feel like it's obvious, and as far as I know, to most people playing the game, they also feel it's pretty obvious.

 

[THTB]

Why would anyone keep playing that POS? Lol, you Tekken dickriders are something else. Been releasing the same game since Tekken 3, and been more and more janky ever since. Look at those fucking combat animations. Exact same for 20 years.
The discrepancy between the highest and lowest in T7 is bigger than the discrepancy in MK11. If you believe anything else, you just can’t resist that Japanese cock I guess.

 

[BanTheTesters]

Alien was a super dumb character that everyone was glad didn't kill the hype of Evo. Only Bo' Rai and Leatherface weren't top tier at some point.

Hey hey...I mained mkx LF And Bo...and this comment really hit me hard man...why NRS why..?



also I thought it was hilarious how aliens acid spit would STACK damage with his throw/other tools but BO dragon breath wouldnt stack off of throw..? Lol what?

 

[BRAZILIAN SHEEP]

People are calling the game balanced seeing cetrion and Jaccqui in comparison with the rest of the cast.
Really, at this point....where is the lack of evidence that this is fucked up? What is the excuse?
MK is my favorite franchise of all time, but don't let the passion interfere on this.

 

[Dogeofthesea]

I don't.
Not just unbalanced, but also terribly designed.
Also why do so many characters have punishable-on-hit strings? Kitana, Jade, Sonya, Fujin, Nightwolf, Shang Tsung, Subzero, Scorpion. These are what I've learnt the hard way

 

[Ilthuain]

I don't.
Not just unbalanced, but also terribly designed.
Also why do so many characters have punishable-on-hit strings? Kitana, Jade, Sonya, Fujin, Nightwolf, Shang Tsung, Subzero, Scorpion. These are what I've learnt the hard way

I think we might not have the same definition of "punishable-on-hit."

 

[mastermalone]

Balance can be fun. It entirely depends on how the balancing takes place. For instance, if you balance a game by nerfing every character into the ground to the point where every character has nothing good, or fun to play with or mess around with, to me I don’t find that fun. However if you balance the game where you buff every character to have really good moves and in turn most characters can compete with one another, that type of balance is fun. Unfortunately I do think NRS tends to take the “not fun” approach to balancing. Which has consistently been my criticism of NRS. But not everyone agrees and I acknowledge that.

I actually agree mostly with this post. They need to focus less on nerfing and more on buffing characters. King of Fighters devs normally take the buffing approach to their games. Their characters are notoriously buffed and in many cases can deplete your life bar in one combo. I know this is due to the team based nature of the game which means the damage output is high, but I have to admit, the game is fun that way.

 

[DeftMonk]

I dunno why you guys bother to even discuss balance in the way cherney mentioned. NRS obviously is trying to turn every character into cookie cutter boring turds. Have you not noticed there are no real archetypes to speak of in mk11? They made everyone a "Ryu" and stripped away any depth then added come back mechanics out the wazoo. Welcome to the future of NRS.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

I dunno why you guys bother to even discuss balance in the way cherney mentioned. NRS obviously is trying to turn every character into cookie cutter boring turds. Have you not noticed there are no real archetypes to speak of in mk11? They made everyone a "Ryu" and stripped away any depth then added come back mechanics out the wazoo. Welcome to the future of NRS.

They basically removed specializations, skill sets and the need to have refined decision making ability

 

[CrimsonShadow]

I actually agree mostly with this post. They need to focus less on nerfing and more on buffing characters. King of Fighters devs normally take the buffing approach to their games. Their characters are notoriously buffed and in many cases can deplete your life bar in one combo. I know this is due to the team based nature of the game which means the damage output is high, but I have to admit, the game is fun that way.

This is what they did in MKX, and it's the reason why there was a new super-broken character every patch (ex. Mileena). The truth is that it's really hard to superbuff characters accurately. They end up being too good, or it's not enough, etc. And then you end up just having to nerf the characters again.

The only way that actually works in practice is to balance towards the middle (or at least the 'A' tier), curbing things that are too strong, and giving help to characters that can't compete. If it becomes a race to the top, that's a never-ending race, and people will always complain about the few that end up stronger than the cast.

 

[XxSYNDROISxX]

Injustice 2 is the most balanced game in my opinion.

When it comes to MK11, sure it's "generally" considered balanced. It's not though. There are tons of things that need to be reworked / tweaked if we want to consider it fully balanced.

No offense man but Starfire completely blows that motion out of the water

 

[NaCl man]

I thought it was 100% clear that this is a troll account. If you want my true Bandai Namco stan account, it’s KingsFurryPecker.
Seriously, I’m just winding people up. I haven’t played Tekken in almost 20 years. Hell, I’m not entirely sure I even enjoy MK, tbh.
Or do I...

The goat of tym

 

[Dogeofthesea]

I think we might not have the same definition of "punishable-on-hit."

It means what it says literally

 

[WA-Finest]

I don't.
Not just unbalanced, but also terribly designed.
Also why do so many characters have punishable-on-hit strings? Kitana, Jade, Sonya, Fujin, Nightwolf, Shang Tsung, Subzero, Scorpion. These are what I've learnt the hard way

What are these punishable on hit strings? Are you talking about strings that are punishable if you drop them in the combo?

 

[Dogeofthesea]

What are these punishable on hit strings? Are you talking about strings that are punishable if you drop them in the combo?

Strings like Kitana's B231 is a dial-up combo. It has 4 hits. You either press B2 to do one hit, or B231 to do all 4 hits. There is no option in between.
If opponents jump and the first hit catches them, Kitana will carry on the next 3 hits and all of them will whiff. Opponents can stand up normally and punish Kitana for a full combo, for example Sonya's B123 will do, you don't have to use a wake up move to punish Kitana.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

No offense man but Starfire completely blows that motion out of the water

No she doesn't. She had plenty of even or losing mu's. Every character except Batman did.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

Strings like Kitana's B231 is a dial-up combo. It has 4 hits. You either press B2 to do one hit, or B231 to do all 4 hits. There is no option in between.
If opponents jump and the first hit catches them, Kitana will carry on the next 3 hits and all of them will whiff. Opponents can stand up normally and punish Kitana for a full combo, for example Sonya's B123 will do, you don't have to use a wake up move to punish Kitana.

I hate having to defend MK11 but the Kitana point has been repeatedly debunked and called out for being stupid. It's not meant to be used as a meaty, or a neutral check. It's clearly a whiff punish string. Please stop using this string for anything else other than that lol

 

[XxSYNDROISxX]

No she doesn't. She had plenty of even or losing mu's. Every character except Batman did.

What the hell you talking about She's 6-4 with almost the entire cast yes even Batman

 

[Dogeofthesea]

I hate having to defend MK11 but the Kitana point has been repeatedly debunked and called out for being stupid. It's not meant to be used as a meaty, or a neutral check. It's clearly a whiff punish string. Please stop using this string for anything else other than that lol

It doesn't make that string any less stupid. Btw who debunked it? The reason why she has to use as a neutral check because it's punishable on hit if it lands on a jumpy opponent. Not because it was designed to be used "as a neutral check"
Takeda had a similar strinrg in MKX: hit the first hit but whiff all the rest of a 4 hit combo. But he had the ability to stop at any point because it's not a full dial-up string. THAT'S THE POINT. Dial-up strings weren't tested properly when this game was made, which is the opposite of MKX or Injustice 2.
Here's another string for you to "debunk": Jade's B343 catching people jumping but whiff the 2nd and 3rd hit.

 

[John Grizzly]

How in the fuck are people not picking up on REO's sarcasm?! Holy shit.

 

[Obly]

All I will respond with to your last point, and it gets very fucking old that people think I'm talking out of my ass when I'm not. I really am on good terms with, or friends with, a lot of respected or top players in this community. I talk to these guys on a regular enough basis about the game and about the state of the games competition. I actually do know people aren't grinding. The mindset right now is people are just biding time and fulfilling sponsor/brand obligations and are waiting for the next game to be announced. I can say with certainty that this is the mood of the community right now. It is a reality that the game itself is not being played at the highest level by these guys right now, everyones just goofing off.

Also, in regards to my second point you have an absolutely fair point, but the problem is if I'm right, there really is no way to prove that via data. The study to produce the data you seek would take so much work and would require insane amounts of hundreds of hours of tournament footage scrutiny. I just feel like it's obvious, and as far as I know, to most people playing the game, they also feel it's pretty obvious.

I don't doubt what you're saying, but it's really not evidence. No stretch to say (as a general rule in life) that your friends are your friends because you probably share a lot of the same beliefs and attitudes about things. So to claim something like, "MK11 is competitively dead because my friends and I agree that it is" doesn't even rise to the level of anecdotal evidence; it's just straight confirmation bias.

Fact is, no one can claim anything with confidence about the state of the game unless we had a scientific survey of a representative sample of players. Obviously that isn't going to happen, so who really knows. Just looking at broad trends though, it's really hard to see how they're consistent with what you're saying. The Pro Kompetition is alive and well all across the globe. The PS Open Series has multiple regional tourneys every week for cash. There are many community-run tourneys going on at any time: Champions of the Realm, PC League, Outworld TV, Freak Show, Nightmare Series, and more; some of these raise literally thousands of $$ for the prize pool from viewers just hyped to watch. The GFuel and WePlay tourneys were other recent sponsored, splashy, high-production value MK11 events.

There are lots of players globally in the MK11 competitive scene, there's money in the scene, there's hype from viewers... so where is the observable evidence that none of it is real, it's all a big goof-off, and that the scene is actually in sleep mode?

Granted, there are a few well-known names who haven't shown up much in recent events; maybe that's who you mean. If they're sitting out because they dislike the game so much that it isn't worth their time to cash in, that's totally their choice. But to claim that the choices of a few means that the work being put in by scores of other competitive players and organizers around the world isn't real and shouldn't be taken seriously? That's illogical and insulting.

 

[Ilthuain]

Strings like Kitana's B231 is a dial-up combo. It has 4 hits. You either press B2 to do one hit, or B231 to do all 4 hits. There is no option in between.
If opponents jump and the first hit catches them, Kitana will carry on the next 3 hits and all of them will whiff. Opponents can stand up normally and punish Kitana for a full combo, for example Sonya's B123 will do, you don't have to use a wake up move to punish Kitana.

Then... don't use it when they're jumping? Use something else if you think they'll jump?

I don't understand why you think this is such a big issue. Just use the correct string for the situation. A better way to phrase your problem is "not every string fully connects in every juggle situation"

 

[WA-Finest]

Strings like Kitana's B231 is a dial-up combo. It has 4 hits. You either press B2 to do one hit, or B231 to do all 4 hits. There is no option in between.
If opponents jump and the first hit catches them, Kitana will carry on the next 3 hits and all of them will whiff. Opponents can stand up normally and punish Kitana for a full combo, for example Sonya's B123 will do, you don't have to use a wake up move to punish Kitana.

A lot of characters have glaring weaknesses on their best mid strings, this is probably for balance. Shao Kahn's mid string has a flawless block gap and a duckable throw on the end. Kitana's doesn't combo jumpers, Fujin's relies on mind games or needle to be safe, Sindel's isn't hit confirmable. I don't really see the issue with Kitana's since you can just not use that string when players start jumping

 

[Saltea Moonspell]

Mother of baby Jesus, what in the name of the Lord is going on here!

Ed Boon promised us neutral based competitive game, and he delivered!

The numer of sold copies speaks loudly!

No flip coin factor! All around strong roster!

4K stunning, realistic, bloody animations!

The level of commitment in order to compete, is out of the roof!

Updates/patches - unlike the madness in MKX, we get one every several months, and everyone of the. was a game changer: strong netcode, competitive ranking mode with built in connection filter (though they have to fix the Wi-Fi icon glitch).

This is by far the authentic, one of a kind, true Ultimate Mortal Kombat 11.

Huge offline tournament base community!

And much, much more!

We are blinded, and we all suffer false perception, clearly Corona Virus has strong effects on us all.

We should stop arguing, and start loving the game, and accept it, the way it is: wonderful.


Amen.

 

[M2Dave]

Tom Brady opines.