At this point, is there any one person who thinks this game is balanced?

[CrimsonShadow]

One thing is guaranteed: the next game will be even more balanced, people will say it is less balanced and the most unbalanced game ever, and the cycle will continue.

And at some point, a few years in, people will point out things about MK11 that were better.

It's not quite Groundhog Day, but you could set your clock by the NRS community's view of a game in 2 or 4 year increments.

 

[DeftMonk]

Tom Brady opines.

Ya but the problem is if u just give everyone the same shit game is more boring than it is. The variety in this game comes from "do they have stuff? or do they jsut use base system mechanics and strike throw?" instead of zoner/set play/rush down like previous games. I like a lot about mk11 but the characters need a bit more depth/clearly defined designs outside of using system mechanics to define their game plan. Some dirt and setups for you to worry about isn't always a bad thing either imo. Maybe they can add that in mk12 and instead of fatal blow, give a once per game gtfo me mechanic that saves you from a setup/mix and resets neutral.

 

[M2Dave]

One thing is guaranteed: the next game will be even more balanced, people will say it is less balanced and the most unbalanced game ever, and the cycle will continue.

Tom is not saying that Mortal Kombat 11 is the most unbalanced NRS game ever made. He acknowledges that the top tier characters in previous games were substantially more powerful. He is arguing that the gap between a top tier character like Cetrion and a low tier character like Shao Kahn is very large. Some guests that we have had on the podcast have made similar arguments.

As far as cycles are concerned, certain individuals will defend NRS with every new game no matter what.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Tom is not saying that Mortal Kombat 11 is the most unbalanced NRS game ever made. He acknowledges that the top tier characters in previous games were substantially more powerful. He is arguing that the gap between a top tier character like Cetrion and a low tier character like Shao Kahn is very large. Some guests that we have had on the podcast have made similar arguments.

As far as cycles are concerned, certain individuals will defend NRS with every new game no matter what.

That wasn't a response to Tom's video -- I haven't watched it. It's a comment on some of the posts in this thread as a whole, and to the various similar threads every couple of years per game.

 

[DeftMonk]

Tom is not saying that Mortal Kombat 11 is the most unbalanced NRS game ever made. He acknowledges that the top tier characters in previous games were substantially more powerful. He is arguing that the gap between a top tier character like Cetrion and a low tier character like Shao Kahn is very large. Some guests that we have had on the podcast have made similar arguments.

As far as cycles are concerned, certain individuals will defend NRS with every new game no matter what.

Well he states that the gap in mk11 between top and bottom tier is larger than mk9. That inherently means the balance is worse I suppose(his opinion not mine). I think the main problem is when u tone down everything so much, the low tier is just gonna have not much of anything. More craziness pls in mk12...just keep the run button in the dumpster.

 

[M2Dave]

That wasn't a response to Tom's video -- I haven't watched it. It's a comment on some of the posts in this thread as a whole, and to the various similar threads every couple of years per game.

Considering companies are charging more than ever for games and downloadable content, fans are justified in demanding more, including impeccable balance. How certain low tier characters, whether Shao Kahn in Mortal Kombat 11, Nash in Street Fighter 5 or Lars in Tekken 7, can remain low tier for two, three, even four years is unacceptable in the contemporary era of patching and hotfixing. Fighting game companies need to be showered with incessant complaints, which will serve as motivation to get things accomplished.

 

[Eddy Wang]

Strings like Kitana's B231 is a dial-up combo. It has 4 hits. You either press B2 to do one hit, or B231 to do all 4 hits. There is no option in between.
If opponents jump and the first hit catches them, Kitana will carry on the next 3 hits and all of them will whiff. Opponents can stand up normally and punish Kitana for a full combo, for example Sonya's B123 will do, you don't have to use a wake up move to punish Kitana.

That's a commital string, and it works as intended, to do the full string, you have to commit to the whole string.

 

[trufenix]

The best thing about playing multiple fighting games is reading posts from people who only play one. I can honestly say I missed this.

 

[Snibbor]

It doesn't make that string any less stupid. Btw who debunked it? The reason why she has to use as a neutral check because it's punishable on hit if it lands on a jumpy opponent. Not because it was designed to be used "as a neutral check"
Takeda had a similar strinrg in MKX: hit the first hit but whiff all the rest of a 4 hit combo. But he had the ability to stop at any point because it's not a full dial-up string. THAT'S THE POINT. Dial-up strings weren't tested properly when this game was made, which is the opposite of MKX or Injustice 2.
Here's another string for you to "debunk": Jade's B343 catching people jumping but whiff the 2nd and 3rd hit.

So, your opponent jumps. You, playing Kitana, use B231. B2 hits, the rest of the string whiffs. You already know that the string whiffs on a jumping opponent, so simply put, you did not make the correct read. Kitana has other strings than just B231 to use when you believe your opponent will jump, if you want to use B231 then you also have to accept the fact that the string will whiff in a situation when your opponent jumps. The game doesn’t care that you believe B231 shouldn’t whiff like that, so the burden is on the player to use the tools they’re given appropriately.

 

[Arqwart]

Strings like Kitana's B231 is a dial-up combo. It has 4 hits. You either press B2 to do one hit, or B231 to do all 4 hits. There is no option in between.
If opponents jump and the first hit catches them, Kitana will carry on the next 3 hits and all of them will whiff. Opponents can stand up normally and punish Kitana for a full combo, for example Sonya's B123 will do, you don't have to use a wake up move to punish Kitana.

Not trying to offend, but are we really still having this conversation on Kitana's B2 string? It gets countered by jumping. It's been countered by jumping since the game launched almost 2 years ago. Don't commit to the string in neutral / as a meaty if you aren't willing to risk the consequences. It's as simple as that. What you WANT the move to be doesn't matter. What the move DOES dictates how you need to play.

As for Tom's video, I STRONGLY disagree that the disparity between the likes of Cetrion/Shao in MK11 is a larger gap than between the likes of Kabal/Sheeva in MK9. While MK9/MKX gave each character dirt, a lot of the dirt of the very top tiers totally invalidated the existence of other characters when utilized well. In the realm of MK11 where everyone is toned down, there's a lot more opportunity for the lower tiers to accomplish something with good play. It's sure as hell a frustrating uphill battle, but it's a lot more doable than the likes of navigating IAGBs / instant buzzsaws / flash parries / cancel + mixup pressure on Rooftop as Sheeva. Not to mention Sheeva/Kano/Jade/Stryker attempting to survive things like Kenshi's, Sonya's, Cyrax's, and Lao's bullshit too.

 

[Zviko]

My question is why dial in strings even exist? If they don't have a way to cancel between hits for a mix up or plus frames for more pressure there's no point.

 

[Obly]

My question is why dial in strings even exist? If they don't have a way to cancel between hits for a mix up or plus frames for more pressure there's no point.

I'm not a FG dev so I can only guess but... my guess is that it's just one more tool they use to try to enforce more balance. As in either (a) the string itself would be OP if you could stagger/cancel between every hit; or (b) they just need a way to "ding" the character a bit to balance out other strengths.

Like with Kitana, her b2 alone is very good: long range mid, pretty quick startup for that much range, pretty quick recovery, and 0 minus frames on block. It's a great neutral check and stagger on its own. My guess is that the devs said, ok, we're going to balance how good b2 is by making the b231 a dial-in string, so it's a little easier to defend against. If she could stagger each hit, the pressure she gets off that string would probably be broken.

Who knows if the devs knew going in that b231 would be punishable on hit by jumping--but they certainly know it now and they haven't changed the string (and Kitana has gotten a lot of buffs). So I tend to think they want her to take some risk if she throws out the whole string in the neutral.

Spawn's 24u32 string is kind of similar. You can stagger 24 all day and get a great mind game out of it (is he going to finish the string or not?), but if you do finish it to fish for the KB and get the plus frames, you also have to commit to the risk of being flawless blocked. The dial-in part makes the string more balanced.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

My question is why dial in strings even exist? If they don't have a way to cancel between hits for a mix up or plus frames for more pressure there's no point.

This is a typical dumbass NRS player perspective.

Can you guys really not imagine a fighting game that isn't all mix ups and offense?

THE POINT OF THE STRING IS TO BE A WHIFF PUNISHER AND IT'S ONE OF THE BEST WHIFF PUNISHING STRINGS IN THE GAME. PLEASE LEARN OTHER SKILLSETS OR OTHER STYLES OF PLAY. PLEASE STOP THIS SHIT.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

Just admit you guys wanna play a slot machine with cool animations and go man lol

 

[Zviko]

This is a typical dumbass NRS player perspective.

Can you guys really not imagine a fighting game that isn't all mix ups and offense?

THE POINT OF THE STRING IS TO BE A WHIFF PUNISHER AND IT'S ONE OF THE BEST WHIFF PUNISHING STRINGS IN THE GAME. PLEASE LEARN OTHER SKILLSETS OR OTHER STYLES OF PLAY. PLEASE STOP THIS SHIT.

No, I don't want it to be all about mix ups and offense, quite the opposite actually. And I'm not talking specifically about Kitana's string, just dial-in strings in general. You didn't answer my question and with that attitude I don't really want you to.

 

[Zviko]

I'm not a FG dev so I can only guess but... my guess is that it's just one more tool they use to try to enforce more balance. As in either (a) the string itself would be OP if you could stagger/cancel between every hit; or (b) they just need a way to "ding" the character a bit to balance out other strengths.

You think they make up a string first and then decide it's gonna be a dial in because they made it too good? Or is it other way around. I just can't put myself in dev's heads with this one.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

No, I don't want it to be all about mix ups and offense, quite the opposite actually. And I'm not talking specifically about Kitana's string, just dial-in strings in general. You didn't answer my question and with that attitude I don't really want you.

How am I not supposed to make that assumption when your statement was, if it can't be staggered for pressure or mix what use is it?

It's a balancing measure to relegate it to ONLY being a whiff punisher. This is a balancing measure that also makes the game more interesting and have more nuances to it.

 

[Zviko]

How am I not supposed to make that assumption when your statement was, if it can't be staggered for pressure or mix what use is it?

It's a balancing measure to relegate it to ONLY being a whiff punisher. This is a balancing measure that also makes the game more interesting and have more nuances to it.

Then don't make the opposite assumptions either. I didn't even mention Kitana's string. In fact, Kitana's string actually can be cancelled between hits and with Half Blood Stance there is a potential for a mix up. You knew that right? So you could assume I wasn't talking about Kitana specifically.

But since you want to talk about it, Half Blood Stance and the fact that string is cancellable between hits is what makes me think it's intention wasn't to be only a whiff punisher. If it was then it's a very weird design choice imo.

 

[DeftMonk]

Then don't make the opposite assumptions either. I didn't even mention Kitana's string. In fact, Kitana's string actually can be cancelled between hits and with Half Blood Stance there is a potential for a mix up. You knew that right? So you could assume I wasn't talking about Kitana specifically.

But since you want to talk about it, Half Blood Stance and the fact that string is cancellable between hits is what makes me think it's intention wasn't to be only a whiff punisher. If it was then it's a very weird design choice imo.

Bro it’s obvious. If the string isn’t meant to be staggered, they have 2 options as devs. #1 make every hit have hella recovery unless canceled. Or #2 (the nrs route) dial a combo that u either can choose 1 hit or 5. For instance cage’s f3444 series or erron black’s punches from mkx. These strings cover a shitload of ground quickly and have many hits that if u could stagger at any point would be problematic. Honestly you guys do know other fighting games exist right? U don’t like dial a combo or footsies? Sounds like u would love anime fighters quit wasting ur time playing mk11 if u don’t like it. Play the games that are built the way you want.

 

[Zviko]

Bro it’s obvious. If the string isn’t meant to be staggered, they have 2 options as devs. #1 make every hit have hella recovery unless canceled. Or #2 (the nrs route) dial a combo that u either can choose 1 hit or 5. For instance cage’s f3444 series or erron black’s punches from mkx. These strings cover a shitload of ground quickly and have many hits that if u could stagger at any point would be problematic. Honestly you guys do know other fighting games exist right? U don’t like dial a combo or footsies? Sounds like u would love anime fighters quit wasting ur time playing mk11 if u don’t like it. Play the games that are built the way you want.

I never mentioned any staggering either. That or cancelling into special is completely different thing. Also, not every dial in string really needs it. Both of those you mentioned still work if you clip someone airborne with their first attack. Just an example if you also want to compare it Kitana's.

I didn't say I don't like these strings or footsies either. Why the hell is everyone putting words in my mouth FFS. You can't ask a simple question on here anymore...

 

[DeftMonk]

I never mentioned any staggering either. That or cancelling into special is completely different thing. Also, not every dial in string really needs it. Both of those you mentioned still work if you clip someone airborne with their first attack. Just an example if you also want to compare it Kitana's.

I didn't say I don't like these strings or footsies either. Why the hell is everyone putting words in my mouth FFS. You can't ask a simple question on here anymore...

I honestly think the kitana string dropping juggled opponents is stupid ass design but its working as intended. Just use it for whiff punishing and forget about it.

 

[Obly]

It's a balancing measure to relegate it to ONLY being a whiff punisher. This is a balancing measure that also makes the game more interesting and have more nuances to it.

To play devil's advocate--if the devs had truly intended b231 to be used only for whiff punishing, they wouldn't have given it a KB that only triggers when you block every hit except the final overhead. Pretty clear they intended it to have some use as a blockstring too--just one that's risky to throw out in the neutral.

You think they make up a string first and then decide it's gonna be a dial in because they made it too good? Or is it other way around. I just can't put myself in dev's heads with this one.

Great question. Sure would be interesting if they ever made a documentary on "How a FG character gets made". The whole process, but in particular how they decide what strings the character gets, what they're good for, what the frames should be, etc.

To keep using Kitana as an example, she probably has more "dead" strings than any other character in the game. So many strings they went to trouble of beautifully animating but never get used because they have lousy frame data or just do nothing for her. Really strange...

 

[Darth-Nero]

Balance can be fun. It entirely depends on how the balancing takes place. For instance, if you balance a game by nerfing every character into the ground to the point where every character has nothing good, or fun to play with or mess around with, to me I don’t find that fun. However if you balance the game where you buff every character to have really good moves and in turn most characters can compete with one another, that type of balance is fun. Unfortunately I do think NRS tends to take the “not fun” approach to balancing. Which has consistently been my criticism of NRS. But not everyone agrees and I acknowledge that.

Just came here to post this, thanks for saving me the trouble.
If anything, mk11 have always been criticized for being "too balanced" in the "not fun" criterion .