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Question - Ferra/Torr Ask Ferra Thread – Information & Q/As

karaokelove

Dead or alive, you’re coming with me.
Premium Supporter
What can Ruthless do after a P&G cancel? I'm having trouble figuring out much since he loses a lot of strings and specials.
 

Kamikaze_Highlander

PSN: Windude008
What can Ruthless do after a P&G cancel? I'm having trouble figuring out much since he loses a lot of strings and specials.
only real mix up is f2 or throw. I usually go for f2 after my first on a new opponent see if they know whats up. If they let it hit then I know I'm free to do basically whatever the fuck i want as they most likely don't know the mu. after that its mostly throws on block.

b12 into d1 is good as b12 is neutral on block and you still have Torr d1 which will beat any poke.

you can always backdash to but I don't suggest this as our backdash is ass and i don't believe Ferra returns any quicker for it.
 

Blewdew

PSN: MaxKayX3
only real mix up is f2 or throw. I usually go for f2 after my first on a new opponent see if they know whats up. If they let it hit then I know I'm free to do basically whatever the fuck i want as they most likely don't know the mu. after that its mostly throws on block.

b12 into d1 is good as b12 is neutral on block and you still have Torr d1 which will beat any poke.

you can always backdash to but I don't suggest this as our backdash is ass and i don't believe Ferra returns any quicker for it.
I sometimes backdash to bait johnnys nut punch. Idk why but it works fairly well lol
 
Hey all, Ferra/Torr main here (q_world86). I see that most on here feel that Ruthless is the best variation, due to PnG, but I primarily use Vicious, as I find Boss Toss more reliable than command grab to use online for consistent ~30% meterless combos off of any little mistake, and I do not like sacrificing my own life bar (every bit counts!). I also find the PnG armor inconsistent in what it will prevent and what gets through, and immobile after use since dashing loses Ferra, to the point where I don't feel the risk/life loss is worth the reward.

That said, I'm willing to give Ruthless another shot, just like I've learned to love Lackey (despite his horrible shortcomings). Are there any matchups where the gain of PnG definitively gives you an edge? Like I'll switch to Lackey whenever I'm playing Dvorrah, Jax, Cassie, Sonya or Kotal, as those are heavy pressure characters w/ weak projectiles--in those matchups, zoning is pretty much moot, and my opponents are often flustered in just how quick Lackey is, especially in wakeups and pokes. His armored run also ruins their flow. It messes with their whole offensive rushdown game, and forces them to actually block and play defensively, for once.

Is PnG really worth the risk? With Vicious, I find B121xxOhtoss/Bowlgirl, B3xxOhToss/Bowlgirl, B2,3,2+4 and F/T's huge throw reach all I need to pressure opponents, and either an armored command grab or BF3 to break through their shenanigans.
 

Blewdew

PSN: MaxKayX3
Hey all, Ferra/Torr main here (q_world86). I see that most on here feel that Ruthless is the best variation, due to PnG, but I primarily use Vicious, as I find Boss Toss more reliable than command grab to use online for consistent ~30% meterless combos off of any little mistake, and I do not like sacrificing my own life bar (every bit counts!). I also find the PnG armor inconsistent in what it will prevent and what gets through, to the point where I don't feel the risk/life loss is worth the reward.

That said, I'm willing to give Ruthless another shot, just like I've learned to love Lackey (despite his horrible shortcomings). Are there any matchups where the gain of PnG definitively gives you an edge? Like I'll switch to Lackey whenever I'm playing Dvorrah, Jax, Cassie, Sonya or Kotal, as those are heavy pressure characters w/ weak projectiles--in those matchups, zoning is pretty much moot, and my opponents are often flustered in just how quick Lackey is, especially in wakeups and pokes. His armored run also ruins their flow. It messes with their whole offensive rushdown game, and forces them to actually block and play defensively, for once.

Is PnG really worth the risk? With Vicious, I find B121xxOhtoss/Bowlgirl, B3xxOhToss/Bowlgirl, B2,3,2+4 and F/T's huge throw reach all I need to pressure opponents, and either an armored command grab or BF3 to break through their shenanigans.
I'll get in more detail later when I'm on pc but let me say it this way, ruthless can do everything better than vicious and many matchups that are even for vicious are in ruthless favor. So yes png is worth it.
 
I'll get in more detail later when I'm on pc but let me say it this way, ruthless can do everything better than vicious and many matchups that are even for vicious are in ruthless favor. So yes png is worth it.
Ok, I look fwd to that. I just haven't been able to wrap my head around Ruthless' playstyle. Every time I try, in a live match, I just end up foregoing PnG and using him like Vicious, except I substitute Boss Toss with command grab for combo enders. Whenever I cancel B121 or 111 or 4 into PnG, I feel like I can't move in, and I'm sometimes out of reach for F2. B2,3,2+4 is slow and easily reactable, too. It just seems I'm giving up chip damage, pressure, and a 50/50 (Oh Toss or Bowl Girl) that can be EX'd for big damage. All this for an initial extra 5% damage that costs me some life, and gives the opponent an opportunity to counter. I don't understand the spacing and what you're supposed to do after PnG, since dashing in (or out) loses Ferra.
 

Kamikaze_Highlander

PSN: Windude008
@qworldorder (Star Trek reference?), @Blewdew is right, there are very few mu where Boss toss gives you the edge you need (imo, just reptile and Kitana), even then, it heavily depends on your opponent, as Boss toss is most effective at destroying projectiles and getting 16% off the trade, if you're opponent isn't zoning you that hard you're basically playing with varationless F/T with a terrible command grab and onemore tick throw. The consistent 30% combo are nice. But ruthless has 40%+ meterless, or about 34% into a hkd.

While the investment into PnG appears costly, the returns are well worth the effort. There are guaranteed three stack combos, and if you bait a wakeup and eat it with PnG armour, 1 bar will end the game, Ruthless can literally win off two combos. Also PnG allows for a lot more plus frame situations,. b3, 4, and f2 are all very very plus when PnG is rc.

Also there's no real mind games in Vicious other than 50/50s. I love b121xPnG letting it rock, see the opponent is too scared to push buttons, then b121xxPnG again, still too scared, b121xxPnG rc into a 21% throw.

It just seems I'm giving up chip damage, pressure, and a 50/50 (Oh Toss or Bowl Girl) that can be EX'd for big damage.
Umm... Ruthless does all of things objectively better than Vicious. Ruthless still has the Ex tosses.

I don't understand the spacing and what you're supposed to do after PnG, since dashing in (or out) loses Ferra.
run cancel and b12, its neutral on block and ferra won't return so you can follow up with a d1
 

Blewdew

PSN: MaxKayX3
Ok, I look fwd to that. I just haven't been able to wrap my head around Ruthless' playstyle. Every time I try, in a live match, I just end up foregoing PnG and using him like Vicious, except I substitute Boss Toss with command grab for combo enders. Whenever I cancel B121 or 111 or 4 into PnG, I feel like I can't move in, and I'm sometimes out of reach for F2. B2,3,2+4 is slow and easily reactable, too. It just seems I'm giving up chip damage, pressure, and a 50/50 (Oh Toss or Bowl Girl) that can be EX'd for big damage. All this for an initial extra 5% damage that costs me some life, and gives the opponent an opportunity to counter. I don't understand the spacing and what you're supposed to do after PnG, since dashing in (or out) loses Ferra.

this is me in a ft10 against fya_yami where you can see a little bit of png showcase

just to make it clear, ruthless and vicious imo really differ in playstyle. vicious is more of a tank, the tosses can keep your opponent out pretty well in mid to 3/4 range and he can do pretty nice damage with a bar. however his pressure is just worse than ruthless. your options as vicious are pretty much b12 stagger,f3 tick or f34 stagger,50/50 or b12 into oh toss to keep being plus and that's pretty much it.

ruthless can do everything of that to. first he has a way faster command grab which means you can do shenanigans like b12 raw cmd grab. imo there is not ONE matchup where boss toss does something the regular oh toss can't do (@Kamikaze_Highlander mentioned reptile and kitana but you can counterzone them with ruthless just as much as with vicious).

imo png is one of the best mixup tools in the game. lets say you play against erron (the variation doesn't matter in that case). erron can reversal with command grab, slide or outlaw with pocket sand. now if you as a ruthless player does b121png every attempt of reversals can be absorbed if you don't cancel png in that matchup and be punished with anoter b121png cancel into combo which does about 50%.

and as @Kamikaze_Highlander said you can go for b121pngc throw and stuff like that the mixup potential is extremely big. those are the things I usually do:

b121pngcb12,d1 or bait armor
b121pngc grab
b121pngc S1 to be +2
b121pngc jump over
b121pngc backdash to scout multi hitting reversals
b12pngc to be +2
f2pngc to be ~+10 (I don't use that too often)

and why I love this move so much is on knockdown in the corner you don't have to give a shit about wakeups usually. if they try to get out you can stuff it with png's armor and if they stand up or delay you can cancel into throw or d1.

not saying vicious is bad it's just outclassed by ruthless. if you like playing vicious and not ruthless keep playing this variation it can also win games you just have to work more for it. but I like playing vicious too here and there :)

and if you need more visual guides watch biohazards matches or you can hit me up too I have plenty recorded with extremely good opponents
 

Shade667

#StrongisthenewCute
Yeah, you pretty miuch covered it.
And run cancelling PnG isnt that hard. I dont understand what u mean by ur left "immobile".
 

this is me in a ft10 against fya_yami where you can see a little bit of png showcase

just to make it clear, ruthless and vicious imo really differ in playstyle. vicious is more of a tank, the tosses can keep your opponent out pretty well in mid to 3/4 range and he can do pretty nice damage with a bar. however his pressure is just worse than ruthless. your options as vicious are pretty much b12 stagger,f3 tick or f34 stagger,50/50 or b12 into oh toss to keep being plus and that's pretty much it.

ruthless can do everything of that to. first he has a way faster command grab which means you can do shenanigans like b12 raw cmd grab. imo there is not ONE matchup where boss toss does something the regular oh toss can't do (@Kamikaze_Highlander mentioned reptile and kitana but you can counterzone them with ruthless just as much as with vicious).

imo png is one of the best mixup tools in the game. lets say you play against erron (the variation doesn't matter in that case). erron can reversal with command grab, slide or outlaw with pocket sand. now if you as a ruthless player does b121png every attempt of reversals can be absorbed if you don't cancel png in that matchup and be punished with anoter b121png cancel into combo which does about 50%.

and as @Kamikaze_Highlander said you can go for b121pngc throw and stuff like that the mixup potential is extremely big. those are the things I usually do:

b121pngcb12,d1 or bait armor
b121pngc grab
b121pngc S1 to be +2
b121pngc jump over
b121pngc backdash to scout multi hitting reversals
b12pngc to be +2
f2pngc to be ~+10 (I don't use that too often)

and why I love this move so much is on knockdown in the corner you don't have to give a shit about wakeups usually. if they try to get out you can stuff it with png's armor and if they stand up or delay you can cancel into throw or d1.

not saying vicious is bad it's just outclassed by ruthless. if you like playing vicious and not ruthless keep playing this variation it can also win games you just have to work more for it. but I like playing vicious too here and there :)

and if you need more visual guides watch biohazards matches or you can hit me up too I have plenty recorded with extremely good opponents
@Blewdew @Kamikaze_Highlander

Thanks for the responses and information. After a long weekend of experimentation, I've gotten the hang of Ruthless and how it's armor works, and I am enjoying it! You're so right about the corner thing!

But now I have to get used to the added wrinkle of when to PnG and when to just attack after B121. That, and not using it when my lifebar drops below 50% unless absolutely necessary. Nothing more embarrassing than killing yourself lol.

@Shade667 Immobile in the sense that in order to continue pressure after PnG, you can't really move. Otherwise, Ferra falls off, and whatever you hit the opponent with while she's off won't be highly damaging. The only strings I've used after PnG without moving fwd or bkwd are S4xx, F2xx, or B232+4, and those are dependent on having close spacing and an opponent with a large hitbox--otherwise, you whiff. And they're slow. Overhead toss and Ferra Slide are options, but they're easily reactable, and B121 doesn't hit on the first punch, which let's an opponent counter/armor through.
 

Blewdew

PSN: MaxKayX3
@Blewdew @Kamikaze_Highlander

Thanks for the responses and information. After a long weekend of experimentation, I've gotten the hang of Ruthless and how it's armor works, and I am enjoying it! You're so right about the corner thing!

But now I have to get used to the added wrinkle of when to PnG and when to just attack after B121. That, and not using it when my lifebar drops below 50% unless absolutely necessary. Nothing more embarrassing than killing yourself lol.

@Shade667 Immobile in the sense that in order to continue pressure after PnG, you can't really move. Otherwise, Ferra falls off, and whatever you hit the opponent with while she's off won't be highly damaging. The only strings I've used after PnG without moving fwd or bkwd are S4xx, F2xx, or B232+4, and those are dependent on having close spacing and an opponent with a large hitbox--otherwise, you whiff. And they're slow. Overhead toss and Ferra Slide are options, but they're easily reactable, and B121 doesn't hit on the first punch, which let's an opponent counter/armor through.
Okay I See the problem. Usually when the opponent blocks you don't try to combo somehow after pngc you try to maintain your frame advantage. Let's say you do b121pngc and follow up with b12. When the opponent respects b12 your 0 which is great since you can now d1 with your 6 frame lackey d1, d4 which is also + on block or b12 again since you outrange most pokes in the game. If you actually hit try hitconfirming into b121. Not the whole string just b121. During the string ferra will be back and the hit advantage of b121 is so big that you you have so many options. You can go for the 50/50, maintain png pressure or b121 into tosses etc.

This is what I usually do and for me this works great. Same can be done if you do oh toss into b121 and they don't respect b121.

If you wanna know more just ask I have so much dirt with this variation :p
 

Cooljaxx

Mkx is the name , Mix is the game
Ruthless can do everything vicious can do except better. If your a vicious player I feel bad for you cause your missing out on 2 other good variations. Lackey and ruthless is really all you need. Vicious is kinda just there as of right now. Mabye he's good vs zoners but yeah.
 

Blewdew

PSN: MaxKayX3
Ruthless can do everything vicious can do except better. If your a vicious player I feel bad for you cause your missing out on 2 other good variations. Lackey and ruthless is really all you need. Vicious is kinda just there as of right now. Mabye he's good vs zoners but yeah.
how about we just delete vicious and give ruthless boss toss:DOGE
 

Barrogh

Meta saltmine
how about we just delete vicious and give ruthless boss toss:DOGE
While we are at it, give F/T full Lackey moveset while Ferra is down. And add animationless (kinda like bat orders of Quan) Boss Release / Boss Recall moves, dd2 or someshit. :DOGE

But seriously, Vicious is probably laziest variation in the game, and when we have stuff like Reptile, that's saying something. I don't even think your suggestion is Bad Idea.
 

Blewdew

PSN: MaxKayX3
While we are at it, give F/T full Lackey moveset while Ferra is down. And add animationless (kinda like bat orders of Quan) Boss Release / Boss Recall moves, dd2 or someshit. :DOGE

But seriously, Vicious is probably laziest variation in the game, and when we have stuff like Reptile, that's saying something. I don't even think your suggestion is Bad Idea.
Lackey moveset while ferra is down would be so cool and broken lol. But yeah vicious is just meh. Boss toss doesn't even do Anything that regular oh toss can't do so why not give it ruthless and forget vicious existence :(

I don't even know what vicious could get to make them somewhat better. Maybe b12u2 as a meterless launcher so you don't have to do b121 boss toss as your best meterless punish lol
 

Barrogh

Meta saltmine
Boss toss doesn't even do Anything that regular oh toss can't do so why not give it ruthless and forget vicious existence :(
I agree. But actually there's one small thing, which is reaching literal fullscreen fast while covering horizontal trajectory... Only for MB Boss toss though. It is a small thing though.

Man, just screw those mid-string directional inputs tbh. Consider this a little pet peeve of mine :p

Still, I see your point. And besides, I absolutely don't know what would I do if it was up to me to compress Ferra variations in one and then make another one...
 

Blewdew

PSN: MaxKayX3
I agree. But actually there's one small thing, which is reaching literal fullscreen fast while covering horizontal trajectory... Only for MB Boss toss though. It is a small thing though.


Man, just screw those mid-string directional inputs tbh. Consider this a little pet peeve of mine :p

Still, I see your point. And besides, I absolutely don't know what would I do if it was up to me to compress Ferra variations in one and then make another one...
Boss toss should reach fullscreen without spending a bar tbh it's nice that mb toss at least goes fullscreen but spending a bar for something that oh toss can do too without meter I don't know about that. And they should change the inputs to df4. I don't know what it is but bf inputs just are so inconsistent since mkxl. With df4 you could also react faster.

And b12u2 is just an example :p anything meterless with around 10 frames Startup would help them alot.
 

Kamikaze_Highlander

PSN: Windude008
something that oh toss can do too without meter
Nope, OH toss loses its hitbox fullscreen remember? same thing for MB OH toss and low tosses. only MB Boss Toss is a true fullscreen projectile.

I mean I agree that Vicious isn't as good as Ruthless and there's a good debate for Lackey being better(as I've said in many other threads Lackey is great but doesn't 'play mkx' that well compared to the rest of the cast). But I still love this variation, bf3 guarantees a boss toss and so is a great way of keeping people grounded after a knockdown once you can get them to respect it. and f3 tick throws are awesome, but I really don't see why Lackey and Ruthless shouldn't have that too.

IMO only thing vicious needs is boss toss to go full screen(i'd be fine removing EX Boss toss in this case as 4% is hardly worth a bar) and some adjustment to stabby stab command grab, be it either making it a hkd or a meterless launcher (with heavy scaling).

What I would like for this variation is maybe some move (say dd2) that you can use during a gap that literally stops the opponent dead, say Ferra hops off Torr and jumps on their heads for a few moments(imagine the voicelines you could put in there). Meterless it would just stop pressure and make it your turn, maybe a meter burned version would allow for a combo to come off it. Or what if Boss Toss could break armour:eek:

F/T full Lackey moveset while Ferra is down
I just want Torr's b3,2+4 string so we have some kind of mix up w/o Ferra, b2(just b2 not the string) would be really nice too, other than that we do actually get a lot of Lackey's moves, just none of the specials.
 

Blewdew

PSN: MaxKayX3
Nope, OH toss loses its hitbox fullscreen remember? same thing for MB OH toss and low tosses. only MB Boss Toss is a true fullscreen projectile.

I mean I agree that Vicious isn't as good as Ruthless and there's a good debate for Lackey being better(as I've said in many other threads Lackey is great but doesn't 'play mkx' that well compared to the rest of the cast). But I still love this variation, bf3 guarantees a boss toss and so is a great way of keeping people grounded after a knockdown once you can get them to respect it. and f3 tick throws are awesome, but I really don't see why Lackey and Ruthless shouldn't have that too.

IMO only thing vicious needs is boss toss to go full screen(i'd be fine removing EX Boss toss in this case as 4% is hardly worth a bar) and some adjustment to stabby stab command grab, be it either making it a hkd or a meterless launcher (with heavy scaling).

What I would like for this variation is maybe some move (say dd2) that you can use during a gap that literally stops the opponent dead, say Ferra hops off Torr and jumps on their heads for a few moments(imagine the voicelines you could put in there). Meterless it would just stop pressure and make it your turn, maybe a meter burned version would allow for a combo to come off it. Or what if Boss Toss could break armour:eek:



I just want Torr's b3,2+4 string so we have some kind of mix up w/o Ferra, b2(just b2 not the string) would be really nice too, other than that we do actually get a lot of Lackey's moves, just none of the specials.
I mean when you wanna stuff projectiles. In that case oh toss works too. And using meter for a special to become midscreen is a waste imo. Also if i remember right you can avoid mb fullscreen without blocking(backwalk or jump or smth like that)
 

Kamikaze_Highlander

PSN: Windude008
I mean when you wanna stuff projectiles. In that case oh toss works too. And using meter for a special to become midscreen is a waste imo. Also if i remember right you can avoid mb fullscreen without blocking(backwalk or jump or smth like that)
Jump definitely but I think active frames are long enough to catch jay walkers (new term for making shit whiff by just walking)

And Yea the OH works but you're less likely to trade and drop ferra with the mid toss.
 

Blewdew

PSN: MaxKayX3
Jump definitely but I think active frames are long enough to catch jay walkers (new term for making shit whiff by just walking)

And Yea the OH works but you're less likely to trade and drop ferra with the mid toss.
Yeah but you have to use a bar which you could use better to actually do any damage :( beside his 50/50's which do good damage his meterless options from a mid are quite limited
 

Kamikaze_Highlander

PSN: Windude008
Yeah but you have to use a bar which you could use better to actually do any damage :( beside his 50/50's which do good damage his meterless options from a mid are quite limited
Yea I agree, but that's how the character was designed so I can't really fault NRS for that. On hit from almost any string or normal we are guaranteed a 50/50, not many other characters have that claim.
 

Blewdew

PSN: MaxKayX3
Yea I agree, but that's how the character was designed so I can't really fault NRS for that. On hit from almost any string or normal we are guaranteed a 50/50, not many other characters have that claim.
I take Strong mids over 50/50's though. Would be cool if vicious could get access to a launching version of b1212 (as said before b12u2 for example). But probably won't Happen so vicious will always be the fuck around Variation for me