B12 all day breh
only real mix up is f2 or throw. I usually go for f2 after my first on a new opponent see if they know whats up. If they let it hit then I know I'm free to do basically whatever the fuck i want as they most likely don't know the mu. after that its mostly throws on block.
I sometimes backdash to bait johnnys nut punch. Idk why but it works fairly well lol
I'll get in more detail later when I'm on pc but let me say it this way, ruthless can do everything better than vicious and many matchups that are even for vicious are in ruthless favor. So yes png is worth it.
Ok, I look fwd to that. I just haven't been able to wrap my head around Ruthless' playstyle. Every time I try, in a live match, I just end up foregoing PnG and using him like Vicious, except I substitute Boss Toss with command grab for combo enders. Whenever I cancel B121 or 111 or 4 into PnG, I feel like I can't move in, and I'm sometimes out of reach for F2. B2,3,2+4 is slow and easily reactable, too. It just seems I'm giving up chip damage, pressure, and a 50/50 (Oh Toss or Bowl Girl) that can be EX'd for big damage. All this for an initial extra 5% damage that costs me some life, and gives the opponent an opportunity to counter. I don't understand the spacing and what you're supposed to do after PnG, since dashing in (or out) loses Ferra.
Umm... Ruthless does all of things objectively better than Vicious. Ruthless still has the Ex tosses.
run cancel and b12, its neutral on block and ferra won't return so you can follow up with a d1
@Blewdew @Kamikaze_Highlander
this is me in a ft10 against fya_yami where you can see a little bit of png showcase
just to make it clear, ruthless and vicious imo really differ in playstyle. vicious is more of a tank, the tosses can keep your opponent out pretty well in mid to 3/4 range and he can do pretty nice damage with a bar. however his pressure is just worse than ruthless. your options as vicious are pretty much b12 stagger,f3 tick or f34 stagger,50/50 or b12 into oh toss to keep being plus and that's pretty much it.
ruthless can do everything of that to. first he has a way faster command grab which means you can do shenanigans like b12 raw cmd grab. imo there is not ONE matchup where boss toss does something the regular oh toss can't do (@Kamikaze_Highlander mentioned reptile and kitana but you can counterzone them with ruthless just as much as with vicious).
imo png is one of the best mixup tools in the game. lets say you play against erron (the variation doesn't matter in that case). erron can reversal with command grab, slide or outlaw with pocket sand. now if you as a ruthless player does b121png every attempt of reversals can be absorbed if you don't cancel png in that matchup and be punished with anoter b121png cancel into combo which does about 50%.
and as @Kamikaze_Highlander said you can go for b121pngc throw and stuff like that the mixup potential is extremely big. those are the things I usually do:
b121pngcb12,d1 or bait armor
b121pngc grab
b121pngc S1 to be +2
b121pngc jump over
b121pngc backdash to scout multi hitting reversals
b12pngc to be +2
f2pngc to be ~+10 (I don't use that too often)
and why I love this move so much is on knockdown in the corner you don't have to give a shit about wakeups usually. if they try to get out you can stuff it with png's armor and if they stand up or delay you can cancel into throw or d1.
not saying vicious is bad it's just outclassed by ruthless. if you like playing vicious and not ruthless keep playing this variation it can also win games you just have to work more for it. but I like playing vicious too here and there
and if you need more visual guides watch biohazards matches or you can hit me up too I have plenty recorded with extremely good opponents
Okay I See the problem. Usually when the opponent blocks you don't try to combo somehow after pngc you try to maintain your frame advantage. Let's say you do b121pngc and follow up with b12. When the opponent respects b12 your 0 which is great since you can now d1 with your 6 frame lackey d1, d4 which is also + on block or b12 again since you outrange most pokes in the game. If you actually hit try hitconfirming into b121. Not the whole string just b121. During the string ferra will be back and the hit advantage of b121 is so big that you you have so many options. You can go for the 50/50, maintain png pressure or b121 into tosses etc.
how about we just delete vicious and give ruthless boss toss
While we are at it, give F/T full Lackey moveset while Ferra is down. And add animationless (kinda like bat orders of Quan) Boss Release / Boss Recall moves, dd2 or someshit.how about we just delete vicious and give ruthless boss toss
Lackey moveset while ferra is down would be so cool and broken lol. But yeah vicious is just meh. Boss toss doesn't even do Anything that regular oh toss can't do so why not give it ruthless and forget vicious existenceWhile we are at it, give F/T full Lackey moveset while Ferra is down. And add animationless (kinda like bat orders of Quan) Boss Release / Boss Recall moves, dd2 or someshit.
But seriously, Vicious is probably laziest variation in the game, and when we have stuff like Reptile, that's saying something. I don't even think your suggestion is Bad Idea.
I agree. But actually there's one small thing, which is reaching literal fullscreen fast while covering horizontal trajectory... Only for MB Boss toss though. It is a small thing though.Boss toss doesn't even do Anything that regular oh toss can't do so why not give it ruthless and forget vicious existence
Man, just screw those mid-string directional inputs tbh. Consider this a little pet peeve of mine
Boss toss should reach fullscreen without spending a bar tbh it's nice that mb toss at least goes fullscreen but spending a bar for something that oh toss can do too without meter I don't know about that. And they should change the inputs to df4. I don't know what it is but bf inputs just are so inconsistent since mkxl. With df4 you could also react faster.I agree. But actually there's one small thing, which is reaching literal fullscreen fast while covering horizontal trajectory... Only for MB Boss toss though. It is a small thing though.
Man, just screw those mid-string directional inputs tbh. Consider this a little pet peeve of mine
Still, I see your point. And besides, I absolutely don't know what would I do if it was up to me to compress Ferra variations in one and then make another one...
anything meterless with around 10 frames Startup would help them alot.
Nope, OH toss loses its hitbox fullscreen remember? same thing for MB OH toss and low tosses. only MB Boss Toss is a true fullscreen projectile.
I just want Torr's b3,2+4 string so we have some kind of mix up w/o Ferra, b2(just b2 not the string) would be really nice too, other than that we do actually get a lot of Lackey's moves, just none of the specials.
I mean when you wanna stuff projectiles. In that case oh toss works too. And using meter for a special to become midscreen is a waste imo. Also if i remember right you can avoid mb fullscreen without blocking(backwalk or jump or smth like that)Nope, OH toss loses its hitbox fullscreen remember? same thing for MB OH toss and low tosses. only MB Boss Toss is a true fullscreen projectile.
I mean I agree that Vicious isn't as good as Ruthless and there's a good debate for Lackey being better(as I've said in many other threads Lackey is great but doesn't 'play mkx' that well compared to the rest of the cast). But I still love this variation, bf3 guarantees a boss toss and so is a great way of keeping people grounded after a knockdown once you can get them to respect it. and f3 tick throws are awesome, but I really don't see why Lackey and Ruthless shouldn't have that too.
IMO only thing vicious needs is boss toss to go full screen(i'd be fine removing EX Boss toss in this case as 4% is hardly worth a bar) and some adjustment to stabby stab command grab, be it either making it a hkd or a meterless launcher (with heavy scaling).
What I would like for this variation is maybe some move (say dd2) that you can use during a gap that literally stops the opponent dead, say Ferra hops off Torr and jumps on their heads for a few moments(imagine the voicelines you could put in there). Meterless it would just stop pressure and make it your turn, maybe a meter burned version would allow for a combo to come off it. Or what if Boss Toss could break armour
I just want Torr's b3,2+4 string so we have some kind of mix up w/o Ferra, b2(just b2 not the string) would be really nice too, other than that we do actually get a lot of Lackey's moves, just none of the specials.
Jump definitely but I think active frames are long enough to catch jay walkers (new term for making shit whiff by just walking)
Yeah but you have to use a bar which you could use better to actually do any damage
beside his 50/50's which do good damage his meterless options from a mid are quite limited
Yea I agree, but that's how the character was designed so I can't really fault NRS for that. On hit from almost any string or normal we are guaranteed a 50/50, not many other characters have that claim.Yeah but you have to use a bar which you could use better to actually do any damage
I take Strong mids over 50/50's though. Would be cool if vicious could get access to a launching version of b1212 (as said before b12u2 for example). But probably won't Happen so vicious will always be the fuck around Variation for me